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tanks4thememories
03-07-2010, 06:49 PM
OK Folks be gentle...its been a while since I ran a salt water tank.

I'm thinking 45 gal tall Fish-Only Saltwater Lion Fish tank.

I already have the tank so all who have an opinion please feel free to share it.

Here is what I do know so far:
I love larger Predatory fish
I have the tank and the stand and plexy top

Ok folks let the suggestions begin..(I would especially love to hear from you cocoa_pleco)

Tigerbarb
03-07-2010, 07:59 PM
Cool idea....it might work, as long as you stick with smaller Lionfish such as Dwarf Lions and Fu Manchus. You couldn't get much else though, as the Lionfish will eat anything that will fit in its mouth. Most importantly, just stay away from Volitans.
I hope you intend to use live rock in your system, as this will play an important roll in your tank's biological filter. Also, it sounds like you haven't done any research...marine tanks require lots of knowledge and planning.

tanks4thememories
03-07-2010, 08:24 PM
Cool idea....it might work, as long as you stick with smaller Lionfish such as Dwarf Lions and Fu Manchus. You couldn't get much else though, as the Lionfish will eat anything that will fit in its mouth. Most importantly, just stay away from Volitans.
I hope you intend to use live rock in your system, as this will play an important roll in your tank's biological filter. Also, it sounds like you haven't done any research...marine tanks require lots of knowledge and planning.

Thanx!!
Been about 20 yrs since I ran salt...lol So I'm gonna need all the help I can get.
I want to start off with FO which means no live rock. Then as it is established ill convert it to live rock and then who knows maybe a mini. Why do you say no Volitans?
Also anyone have any other suggestions besides lionfish? I like em kinda big and very colorful and extremely odd/uncommon. I think of aquariums kinda like living art. So I want the fish to be stunning.:hmm3grin2orange:

tanks4thememories
03-07-2010, 08:37 PM
Also, it sounds like you haven't done any research...marine tanks require lots of knowledge and planning.

Yup, you preaching to the choir, that's what this thread is about I wont be actually starting the build for months yet. This is how I "Roll"...lol

1) Concept - get some ideas,
2) Research of concept - research the most attractive ideas and decide on one,
3) Feasibility - Deeper research on the one you have chosen,
4) More research - dot the I's and cross the T's,
5) Start work!!
:hmm3grin2orange:

Tigerbarb
03-07-2010, 08:38 PM
First of all, your system will be more difficult to maintain without live rock. Live rock filters your tank, and keeps it stable. IMO, it's a must, for any type of marine aquarium.
As for the Volitans, from what I've heard, they are known to grow to about the size of a basketball. Imagine that, swimming around in a 45 gallon tank. Although they are slow-moving fish, they should probably be kept long-term in nothing smaller than a 125 gallon.

tanks4thememories
03-07-2010, 09:22 PM
First of all, your system will be more difficult to maintain without live rock. Live rock filters your tank, and keeps it stable. IMO, it's a must, for any type of marine aquarium.
As for the Volitans, from what I've heard, they are known to grow to about the size of a basketball. Imagine that, swimming around in a 45 gallon tank. Although they are slow-moving fish, they should probably be kept long-term in nothing smaller than a 125 gallon.

Have to research those and see how fast they grow. If its slow then I would get one and trade it when it gets too big. Ive done that a lot in the past. Or sometimes I get attached to them and just get a bigger tank.

tanks4thememories
03-07-2010, 09:24 PM
I might DIY wet/dry filter and overflow. Seems like there some pretty well documented DIY projects for those.

tanks4thememories
03-07-2010, 09:27 PM
hmmm one site says "Volitans Lionfish, Black Lionfish, or Red Firefish is also the largest lionfish, at about 16 inches for a full adult length" thats not bad

tanks4thememories
03-07-2010, 09:46 PM
If I went with dwarf lion fish I could have several varieties. That would be neat. Especially when I get to the mini reef stage of the tank.

Tigerbarb
03-07-2010, 09:49 PM
A wet/dry filter is good to have, but still will not provide the biological filtration system that many experts recommend.
And yes, 16 inches is pretty bad. That fish is over a foot long, and simply requires a tank larger than 45 gallons. I can't make you do what's best for the fish, but part of researching involves finding out the requirements of the livestock you intend to keep. Experts such as Cocoa and SWAddict will say the same.
Definitely try and go with the dwarf lionfish :shappy: They are neat, and interesting to watch.

tanks4thememories
03-08-2010, 03:19 PM
Thanx Tiger good info for thought and researchthumbs2:


A wet/dry filter is good to have, but still will not provide the biological filtration system that many experts recommend.

Yup Ive seen good cases presented by experts on having Live rock and also on how to manage without it. I would do it without LR for 1st 6 months to a yr most likely.


I can't make you do what's best for the fish, but part of researching involves finding out the requirements of the livestock you intend to keep. Experts such as Cocoa and SWAddict will say the same.

Hehe relax tiger, Perhaps you missed the earlier post?

Have to research those and see how fast they grow. If its slow then I would get one and trade it when it gets too big. Ive done that a lot in the past. Or sometimes I get attached to them and just get a bigger tank.
I wouldn't keep it in a tank that small if It got that big...lol

tanks4thememories
03-08-2010, 03:23 PM
I need some more suggestions here folks please?

Large preditory SW fish that are colorful and will fit in a 45 Gal tanlk while they are non adult. Also not anything too high maintainance since I am very rusty this will be my 1st salt in over 20 yrs...lol

labnjab
03-08-2010, 05:06 PM
I'd love to setup a predator tank someday, sounds like a fun project.

If you plan on adding live rock after its been running with fish in it, you going start another cycle once you add the rock due to die off on the rock, unless you set up the rock in a large bucket full of water, power head, and heater and let it cycle before adding it to the tank.

I personally would wait until you can start with live rock and avoid all the trouble. Lion fish are messy eaters and have a large bio-load and without live rock your going to have a lot of maintenance. Large weekly water changes which can get expensive quick with saltwater.

tanks4thememories
03-08-2010, 05:27 PM
If you plan on adding live rock after its been running with fish in it, you going start another cycle once you add the rock due to die off on the rock, unless you set up the rock in a large bucket full of water, power head, and heater and let it cycle before adding it to the tank.

WOW didn't think of that TYVM!!!



I personally would wait until you can start with live rock and avoid all the trouble. Lion fish are messy eaters and have a large bio-load and without live rock your going to have a lot of maintenance. Large weekly water changes which can get expensive quick with saltwater.

Yeah some things don't change. Most preds are very messy. Especially I find the worst ones are the ones that chew. The swallower's seem to be neater.

I was gonna go with a oversized W/D and a fluval FX5 If they cant handle the load I dont think there is any rock that can ...lol
You agree?

labnjab
03-08-2010, 05:57 PM
They should work as long as you do large weekly water changes, probably 30% or more. The more the better.

One of the things live rock does that man made filters don't do is it consumes nitrate so you can have 0 ammonia, and 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate

tanks4thememories
03-08-2010, 06:06 PM
They should work as long as you do large weekly water changes, probably 30% or more. The more the better.

One of the things live rock does that man made filters don't do is it consumes nitrate so you can have 0 ammonia, and 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate

ahhh well I think I've got a lot to research now. Thanx for all the useful info. I'm still looking for any fish suggestions people may want to throw my way...:14:

AABatteries
03-08-2010, 08:11 PM
Just going to continue the echo...

Start with the LR. If you're not starting with it, because you can't afford it. Then you can't afford a marine tank at all.

tanks4thememories
03-08-2010, 08:35 PM
Just going to continue the echo...

Start with the LR. If you're not starting with it, because you can't afford it. Then you can't afford a marine tank at all.

Thanx for your inputthumbs2: .
Umm FX5 costs more than LR. I want to study the differences and ease into the full deal so I know from experience what the difference is not just what people say.

Tigerbarb
03-09-2010, 05:09 AM
Hehe relax tiger, Perhaps you missed the earlier post?

Yeah, sorry, I do that sometimes :hmm3grin2orange:

tanks4thememories
03-09-2010, 07:05 AM
Yeah, sorry, I do that sometimes :hmm3grin2orange:

No worries :)

tanks4thememories
03-13-2010, 06:58 AM
Just in the planning stages so far http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=60392 (http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=60392). Will have pics soon.

travie
03-13-2010, 03:12 PM
No one has mentioned that you should get a quality skimmer. It will help keep your water cleaner, which you will want all the help you can get since you will have a messy eater with the lionfish.

I concur with all those that say LR is the way to go. You should looking into setting up a sump tank, instead of the FX5 or the wet/dry filter, to had extra water volume to the system.

I don't know of any large,colorful, rare predatory that can fit in a 45g, because a 45g isn't that big when it come to SW tanks.

tanks4thememories
03-13-2010, 04:00 PM
No one has mentioned that you should get a quality skimmer. It will help keep your water cleaner, which you will want all the help you can get since you will have a messy eater with the lionfish.

I concur with all those that say LR is the way to go. You should looking into setting up a sump tank, instead of the FX5 or the wet/dry filter, to had extra water volume to the system.

I don't know of any large,colorful, rare predatory that can fit in a 45g, because a 45g isn't that big when it come to SW tanks.


Thank You. Good info :)

tanks4thememories
03-29-2010, 09:38 PM
OK I have reviewed most of the options for filtration on my FO Salt Predator tank. To start off I have decided to abandon the DIY overflow for now. I wasnt really happy with what I would have to do to make a sump fit in the limited space I have around the tank. So ive decided to start off with a Fluval FX5 and fill all the media trays with SeaChems Pond Matrix.
Then Ill work on protin skimmer, then for phase (3) I will work on wet dry powered by the fluval:
I will use my diy overflow rig to get the water out of tank and into a 71 gallon sump basin then use the fluval to pump it back into tank. Still haven't figured out the details of what will be in the 71 Gal Sewage basin but there's time for that..:)

Any Imput?

kaimarkhirst
03-30-2010, 10:39 AM
dont have input on your filtration system other than its nice and big and you wnt to fill it with live rock. lots of it!!!!!

Predatory fish suggestion......

Frogfish/Angerflish.

I keep these badboys and theyare cool!!!! really need a species tank, and are territorial. dont get that big, and are wonderful in color.

Might want to look into this one.

Kai

tanks4thememories
04-10-2010, 06:13 PM
dont have input on your filtration system other than its nice and big and you wnt to fill it with live rock. lots of it!!!!!

Predatory fish suggestion......

Frogfish/Angerflish.

I keep these badboys and theyare cool!!!! really need a species tank, and are territorial. dont get that big, and are wonderful in color.

Might want to look into this one.

Kai

Wow hadnt thought of those, now you have me rethinking the whole lion fish thing...lol Do they get along with each other(Same specie)? Thanx for the info!!!

Finally ordered the FX5 Yesterday it should be here Tuesday!!! WHOOOHOOOO!!!!

kaimarkhirst
04-10-2010, 06:27 PM
yeah lionfish get along with anglers/frogfish, as long as when you order the lionfish, you make sure hes nice and large, and not a dwarf. Volitaans would be good, or a petroitas is a smaller alternative...

Ive got an fx5 on one of my SW tanks.. FANTASTIC!!!! ive got sponge on the ceamic media. Dont be tempted to put small peices of live rock in there, its a pressurised system and the rock will die.... and the fx5 will give you a great amount of flow aswell on full so id buy the powerhead afterwards. Theres also waaaayyy enough filtration for frogfish in here....

Hope this helps

Kai

tanks4thememories
04-10-2010, 08:04 PM
yeah lionfish get along with anglers/frogfish, as long as when you order the lionfish, you make sure hes nice and large, and not a dwarf. Volitaans would be good, or a petroitas is a smaller alternative...

Ive got an fx5 on one of my SW tanks.. FANTASTIC!!!! ive got sponge on the ceamic media. Dont be tempted to put small peices of live rock in there, its a pressurised system and the rock will die.... and the fx5 will give you a great amount of flow aswell on full so id buy the powerhead afterwards. Theres also waaaayyy enough filtration for frogfish in here....

Hope this helps

Kai


yeah im starting off with fx5 and matrix pond media on the inned circle. its a 45 gal tank so im sure its plenty filtration...lol So what do you think? Can I have more than one frogfish ? Will they eat eachother?

tanks4thememories
04-10-2010, 08:13 PM
Hey Kai. You know anything about this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQxTkl5Gljk&feature=related

Like which species it is and how big it gets?

oranda man
04-10-2010, 08:22 PM
a dwarf puffer is a buetiful fish or maybe to clownfish

tanks4thememories
04-10-2010, 08:25 PM
a dwarf puffer is a buetiful fish or maybe to clownfish

they are pretty. Its going to be a predator tank though. I think im gonna go with an orange or red frogfish and a voltans.

kaimarkhirst
04-10-2010, 09:09 PM
This Tanks is your average warty frogfish. There are many colors, shapes and sizes depending on their collection, coral reef, and oceanic region.

This is the biggest as they gets, however, what is alarming is the amount its moving around.... Probably just the clip and hes moving direction in according to the food, its onlya 4 min clip... but that what I think...

Opinions, stock wtih acroporas, and LPS corals that are not delicate as they rest on it, and can cause retraction of polyps and death in extremes.... Other than that, easy to keep, range of foods such as mysis, brine, shrimp Small) , and spirulina.... (corals are not needed, but good for the habitat..)

Lights immaterial unless your keeping coral, and your filtration is fine. If its ceramic its fine. Personally, I preferr more porous cylinders purely they process more water... (theyve got more larger holes in the side and theyre rougher..)

Hope this helps

Kai

tanks4thememories
04-11-2010, 05:04 PM
This Tanks is your average warty frogfish. There are many colors, shapes and sizes depending on their collection, coral reef, and oceanic region. Sweet I think I want a red one and a yellow one.


Opinions, stock wtih acroporas, and LPS corals that are not delicate as they rest on it, and can cause retraction of polyps and death in extremes.... Other than that, easy to keep, range of foods such as mysis, brine, shrimp Small) , and spirulina.... (corals are not needed, but good for the habitat..)
Kewl I'll check em out as well.



Lights immaterial unless your keeping coral, and your filtration is fine. If its ceramic its fine. Personally, I preferr more porous cylinders purely they process more water... (theyve got more larger holes in the side and theyre rougher..)

Yeah I used to prefer bio balls till I ran across this stuff (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Matrix.html) during some intensive bacteria research. I found some very interesting articles on the stuff. Basically it has a lot more holes than the nearest competitor but their lesser known benefit is that along with having many good spots for Nitrosomonas & Nitrobacter (Which are aerobic) they also have many holes that are too remote to receive air which makes them perfect host locations for the several types of (Anaerobic) bacteria that break down Nitrate!!!

tanks4thememories
04-14-2010, 06:27 PM
Just filled it with water and set up the FX5 with bioballs and charcoal and floss. All thats left now is sand and salt...:)

kaimarkhirst
04-14-2010, 07:49 PM
and Frogfish!!! :hmm3grin2orange:

tanks4thememories
04-14-2010, 09:40 PM
and Frogfish!!! :hmm3grin2orange:
Yup Im gonna try to do a yellow or red frogfish and a voltans.

tanks4thememories
04-16-2010, 03:12 AM
Ok water is salted (used coralife), now I added 5 LB of live sand just to get the bacteria flowing and threw a raw shrimp in to feed them. Now I will just simmer for a month or so, water change, and then its fish time...whooohooo!!!

travie
04-16-2010, 03:38 AM
I am going to assume you checked the water's salinity before putting the live sand in...

Happy waiting, it will be worth it.

tanks4thememories
04-16-2010, 06:41 AM
I am going to assume you checked the water's salinity before putting the live sand in...

Happy waiting, it will be worth it.

Yup, TY, I cant waite to se my very own frogfish gulping down a krill or a molly!!!

tanks4thememories
04-16-2010, 11:54 AM
Houston we have ammonia!!!! WHOOOHOOOO!!!!!!!

tanks4thememories
04-17-2010, 12:50 AM
Ok sorry I couldnt take it. Decided to do cycle with fish. Brought a few pounds of live rock and about 6 damsels...lol The guy in the LFS was very nice and gave me a few cups of the ditris from the live rock tank which I seeded in my fx5. Changed out some of the water to get the ammo down for fish level and all systems looking good!!!

tanks4thememories
04-17-2010, 02:49 AM
Pics coming soon, I cant find the cord to my camera...lol

tanks4thememories
04-17-2010, 04:13 PM
Wow I dont know where my camera cord is. Still looking....:help: :hmm3grin2orange:
whooohooo Like always just found it looking for somthing else...lol

tanks4thememories
04-17-2010, 05:47 PM
I see I'm quite rusty with my camera. Sorry It will take a week or 2 to get back into the swing.

Heres the Tank!!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4528741762_c64ba91f8c.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4068/4528775722_a10ff0bb5d.jpg
Modest Live Rock...lol

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4528150105_cf58d15dc4.jpg
FX5 AKA "THE BEAST"...lol

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4067/4528775842_aa52e395f5.jpg
Domino Damsel Next to Live rock
Scientific Name: Dascyllus trimaculatus
Family: Pomacentridae
Max Size: 5½ inches
Temperature: 74 to 78 degrees Fahrenheit
Origin: Pacific and Indian Oceans


Thanx for viewing!! More to come soon!!

tanks4thememories
04-17-2010, 11:22 PM
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4026/4529624192_dd46036a9e.jpg
Better pic of the Domino Damsel

tanks4thememories
04-18-2010, 02:20 AM
Name: S01
Start Date: 04/16/10
Status: Cycling

Tank: 47 gal Extra Tall
Dimensions: 20 in L x 18 in W x 30 in H = 46.75325 US gallons
Water Type: Salt Water FOLR - Fish Only Live Rock

Average Water Condition:
Temperature: 80 Deg F
Ammonia: .25
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
PH: 8.2
SG: 1.022
Calcium:
Magnesium:
Hardness:
Hardness (GH):
Hardness (KH):

Softening agents: N/A

Hardening agents: Coralife Marine Salt Mix, Live Sand

Lighting: (2) aquarium Fluorescent Lights in separate Hood fixtures, Natural indirect sunlight.

Filtration:
Fluval FX5, Stock sponge media, Bio Balls in all trays, Medium Grade floss, Polishing grade Floss, Charcoal.
Heating: N/A

Cooling: Large room fan pointed at the tanks and air conditioning in the room.

Decoration: Live Rock
Current Stock:
(1) Domino Damsel (Dascyllus trimaculatus)
(4) Blue Damselfish - (Chrysiptera cyanea)


Maintenance:
Feedings schedule:
Every other day during Cycle
Water Change Schedule: 20% Bi-Weekly
Notes: This tank is being prepped for SW FO Predator tank. In about 4 Months after it is cycled I will add (1) Red frog fish, (1) Voltans Lion Fish, and possibly an eel of some kind.

tanks4thememories
04-18-2010, 02:52 AM
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/4530056946_7347428160.jpg
Blue Damsel among the live rock

Scientific Name: Chrysiptera cyanea
Common Name(s): Blue Damselfish, Blue Damsel, Blue Devil, Blue Devil Damselfish
Family: Pomacentridae
Max Size: 2.5 inches (6.4cm)
Temperature: 74 to 78 degrees Fahrenheit
Origin: Indo-Pacific, Australian Pacific

HeatherH
04-18-2010, 03:20 AM
Blue damsels are beautiful. :1luvu:

tanks4thememories
04-18-2010, 03:32 AM
Name: S01
Start Date: 04/16/10
Status: Cycling

Tank: 47 gal Extra Tall
Dimensions: 20 in L x 18 in W x 30 in H = 46.75325 US gallons
Water Type: Salt Water FOLR - Fish Only Live Rock

Average Water Condition:
Temperature: 80 Deg F
Ammonia: .25
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
PH: 8.2
SG: 1.022
Calcium:
Magnesium:
Hardness:
Hardness (GH):
Hardness (KH):

Softening agents: N/A

Hardening agents: Coralife Marine Salt Mix, Live Sand

Lighting: (2) aquarium Fluorescent Lights in separate Hood fixtures, Natural indirect sunlight.

Filtration:
Fluval FX5, Stock sponge media, Bio Balls in all trays, Medium Grade floss, Polishing grade Floss, Charcoal.
Heating: N/A

Cooling: Large room fan pointed at the tanks and air conditioning in the room.

Decoration: Live Rock
Current Stock:
(1) Domino Damsel (Dascyllus trimaculatus)
(4) Blue Damselfish - (Chrysiptera cyanea)


Maintenance:
Feedings schedule:
Every other day during Cycle
Water Change Schedule: 20% Bi-Weekly
Notes: This tank is being prepped for SW FO Predator tank. In about 4 Months after it is cycled I will add (1) Red frog fish, (1) Voltans Lion Fish, and possibly an eel of some kind.

tanks4thememories
04-18-2010, 06:45 AM
Well so far everything is still alive and healthythumbs2:

MCHRKiller
04-18-2010, 08:32 AM
Its not a good idea nor practical to keep those fish in a tank that size. The young Vol may have some issues with the current from that FX5 in a tank that size. If your tank were atleast 125G, no issues but even juvie Vols will soon grow to large for that 45G tank. They are slow moving and docile but given the space they are fairly active fish and with the expansive fins they have it takes a good sized tank for them to be able to move. If you must have a lion, I would suggest a Radiata or smaller as they grow to around 8" instead of 15". Also the dimensions of your tank...sucks for anything but small fish. An adult Vol would be as long as that tank counting its tail and not to mention nearly as wide as the tank fins fully displayed. Obviously you will do what you choose to, but for the fish's sake reconsider your stock on that tank or make plans to buy a new much larger tank very soon.

tanks4thememories
04-18-2010, 03:52 PM
Its not a good idea nor practical to keep those fish in a tank that size. The young Vol may have some issues with the current from that FX5 in a tank that size. If your tank were atleast 125G, no issues but even juvie Vols will soon grow to large for that 45G tank. They are slow moving and docile but given the space they are fairly active fish and with the expansive fins they have it takes a good sized tank for them to be able to move. If you must have a lion, I would suggest a Radiata or smaller as they grow to around 8" instead of 15". Also the dimensions of your tank...sucks for anything but small fish. An adult Vol would be as long as that tank counting its tail and not to mention nearly as wide as the tank fins fully displayed. Obviously you will do what you choose to, but for the fish's sake reconsider your stock on that tank or make plans to buy a new much larger tank very soon.

Thanx for the advice. As an experienced hobbyist I would never keep a fish in a tank that is too small for it. If I enjoy the voltans I will get him a larger tank when the time comes. If I not I just trade him in for a smaller one or a different fish. I understand peoples concerns with fish sizes and tanks but I never could understand some peoples preoccupation with the concept that the only option to a small fish that gets large is to put it in a huge tank to start off with. It is called a Grow Out tank when you have a larger tank in mind. But I do understand and thank you for your concerns..:)

PS also most other species of lionfish do not get large enough to guarantee that they will not be eaten by the frog fish...lol Large tanks are relatively easy to to come buy if you know how and where to look, but I buy the tanks for the fish not the other way around. I buy tanks for what I like to keep.

MCHRKiller
04-18-2010, 03:57 PM
Im not one of those people that advocate sticking a tiny fish into a huge tank, its just that the dimensions of your tank wont allow more than a few months for the average purchased size Volitan to stay in there. Its not so much the gallons, its simply the shape. If it were a standard sized tank you could probably get away with that stock in it atleast a year or so before having worries.

tanks4thememories
04-18-2010, 03:59 PM
Im not one of those people that advocate sticking a tiny fish into a huge tank, its just that the dimensions of your tank wont allow more than a few months for the average purchased size Volitan to stay in there. Its not so much the gallons, its simply the shape. If it were a standard sized tank you could probably get away with that stock in it atleast a year or so before having worries.

Im betting I get a year or slightly less out of the intended stocking. Which is plenty time for me to decide what I want to do with the fish that will be in it. The trick is just to find the right voltans that is just large enough not to become very expensive Frogfish food..lol Oh and I am also considering Radiata but they are sparse in comparison to voltans so it really depends on whats available when the time comes. Also Rads are shy, and I wanted something a little more gregarious.

tanks4thememories
04-18-2010, 04:12 PM
Lost a blue Damselfish today:scry: . Gonna go clean my tanks. Need a WC on the SW to get the AMMO down to tolerable lvl, seems to have spiked some during the night, I should have allowed some extra ammo room for the LR die off I guess.

MCHRKiller
04-18-2010, 04:16 PM
You would be suprised at how quickly a well fed Volitan will grow, and hes not going to have to get very large to outgrow the confines of a 20" long aquarium.

Sorry for the loss of the Damsel. I would probably return the remaining damsels to the LFS get more LR let it cure and try it again...but thats me. Cycling marine tanks with fish and only a very small amount of LR usually doesnt go well as even the hardiest marine fish still are extremely ammonia intollerant.

tanks4thememories
04-18-2010, 05:03 PM
You would be suprised at how quickly a well fed Volitan will grow, and hes not going to have to get very large to outgrow the confines of a 20" long aquarium.

Well, I'll let ya know. Ive found there is no substitute for your own experience and experimentation. That is the purpose of starting this tank this way anyway. I don't want a lot of LR to start off with I just wanted enough to inoculate the FX5 with live cultures. I know you can actually bio filter a tank with nothing more than LR. I'm trying to find the actual effectiveness of a canister filter w/ minimum LR. Then Later on Ill add plenty LR after cycle. Who knows this may not work but one way or the other I will learn from the experience and have my own set of Scientific data on which to base my advice and decisions in the future.



Sorry for the loss of the Damsel. I would probably return the remaining damsels to the LFS get more LR let it cure and try it again...but thats me. Cycling marine tanks with fish and only a very small amount of LR usually doesnt go well as even the hardiest marine fish still are extremely ammonia intollerant.

Thanx, I expect to loose about 2 of them in this whole process, we will see. The others are showing no signs of Nitrogen distress but we will see. In my ammonia control I did not allow for the die off in the LR I should have reduced ammonia about .2 more than I did. That combined with the stress of going to a new tank I think is what killed him/her. It wasn't even sickly last night just poof dead this morning. On the positive side I'm already showing traces of nitrites so things are looking good.!!!

Ok Cigarette break is over now back to cleaning...lol

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-18-2010, 05:29 PM
Im betting I get a year or slightly less out of the intended stocking.
I'd comfortably bet against you there. A Vol would have longer in a 40gal breeder then it will in that tank. If the tank were longer and wider rather than a column tank then I'd say you would have it for about 6 months, but it is going to stress and be out of room in no time in there. To be perfectly honest with you, the shape of that tank is really no conducive to much other than Seahorses.

tanks4thememories
04-18-2010, 07:35 PM
I'd comfortably bet against you there. A Vol would have longer in a 40gal breeder then it will in that tank. If the tank were longer and wider rather than a column tank then I'd say you would have it for about 6 months, but it is going to stress and be out of room in no time in there. To be perfectly honest with you, the shape of that tank is really no conducive to much other than Seahorses.

Although I highly respect your opinion, there will be no harm in finding out just how fast it does grow into this tank. Especially since I will have no problem trading it or getting a new tank when the time comes. If it does indeed grow too large for the tank in 3-4 months as you say then I will be the first to post it..(obviously since ill be the first to see it...lol).

MCHRKiller
04-18-2010, 09:51 PM
The only thing that can be harmed from the experiment are the fish that enter it. Ive never killed a fish from cycling a marine tank, done properly no fish has to die to establish an aquarium even a relatively cheap fish such as a damsel. I am also a person who believes firmly in learning from experience, with that said a basis of fact and general information should always provide a foundation for building experience. This is your tank, it is your choice to make...just dont expect others in the hobby with any marine knowledge at all to support the idea of it. The tank would make an interesting reef with a halide pendant stocked with very few small fish. You may even get away with a small puffer or two such as the Valentini which top out around 4" and will use all aspects of an aquarium including height, even still that tank is not ideal for them either.

tanks4thememories
04-18-2010, 11:28 PM
The only thing that can be harmed from the experiment are the fish that enter it. Ive never killed a fish from cycling a marine tank, done properly no fish has to die to establish an aquarium even a relatively cheap fish such as a damsel. I am also a person who believes firmly in learning from experience, with that said a basis of fact and general information should always provide a foundation for building experience. This is your tank, it is your choice to make...just dont expect others in the hobby with any marine knowledge at all to support the idea of it.

I believe there is no such thing as accidents. "An accident is merely an event for which the participant did not foresee the undesired yet (given the circumstances) inevitable out come that took place." So one guy says he has never killed a fish on purpose, where another might argue that it is inevitable that some will die in the act of keeping them confined in glass cages. ergo the first person might not have chosen which individual fish he would kill but he has some responsibility in the death of fish by the ways in which he chooses to interact with them.

When you are doing anything involving other life forms It is a huge moral coin you are tossing around, if you are interacting with them in any way other than pure observation in their natural habitat.

Personally I believe the non human creatures of this planet are resources, here to edify us and for us to manage wisely. I further believe that in doing so we are to respect their quality of life in as much to make sure they do not suffer needlessly for our edification. And it is in this spirit with my eyes wide open that I interact with the non human flora and fauna of this planet.

But that whole thing is a much larger conversation than can be had in this forum...lol I hear ya and I respect your feelings on the subject.



The tank would make an interesting reef with a halide pendant stocked with very few small fish. You may even get away with a small puffer or two such as the Valentini which top out around 4" and will use all aspects of an aquarium including height, even still that tank is not ideal for them either.

TY, yup eventually in a couple of years it will be reef.

tanks4thememories
04-19-2010, 02:32 PM
Ok today is a good day all fish present and looking healthy!!!thumbs2:
Ammo Dropping
Nitrites still climbing steadily
minir traces of nitrates - Just barely different color.

coachfraley
04-19-2010, 03:16 PM
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but is there a reason you didn't start with more live rock?

tanks4thememories
04-19-2010, 05:20 PM
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but is there a reason you didn't start with more live rock?

Yes, I'm experimenting to see first hand just how Valuable the filter is in the equation of a salt water tank. I already know you can run a tank with LR only. I have read much info on running FO, So basically I'm trying to run a SW FO tank for the experience. I only added the live rock to kick start the filter. BTW Just added another pound & about 4 more pounds of LR detritus (cheap mans Live sand...lol) Just to add a little more safety cushion for the fish in there already. Also replaced the Blue damsel that died with a Yellow Tail Damsel of the same size just to keep the stock lvl at 5. I'm going to run FO for about a year and get the hang of it and the problems that will occur, then I will convert it to LR. Run that for about 2-4 yrs, then finally ill make a reef and that will be the final role of this tank.

PS its been over 15 years since I've kept a SW tank so I've forgotten just about everything..lol

Chris5150
04-19-2010, 06:05 PM
PS its been over 15 years since I've kept a SW tank so I've forgotten just about everything..lol


So take the advice of the people on here who haven't been out of the hobby for 15 years?

tanks4thememories
04-19-2010, 06:23 PM
So take the advice of the people on here who haven't been out of the hobby for 15 years?

Gee, why didn't I think of that?!?!?! Thank you for your timely non rhetorical input though.:22:

Chris5150
04-19-2010, 07:19 PM
Gee, why didn't I think of that?!?!?! Thank you for your timely non rhetorical input though.:22:

If you acknowledge the advice being given why aren't you acting on it? Your tank is going to fail and your fish are going to die.

tanks4thememories
04-19-2010, 07:41 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2753/4535159751_f9aae9c713.jpg
04/19/10 - Added: Background, 1Lb LR, 4 LB LR ditrius

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4005/4535780854_90c703239f.jpg
Close Up of LR and Gravel Bed.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4009/4535780902_69d588a2c6.jpg
Yellow Tail Damsel - Latest addition to replace the deceased Blue Damsel
I think Im going to use this format from now on on my species ID's
Scientific Name : Chrysiptera parasema
Common Names : Blue Yellowtail Damselfish, Goldtail Demoiselle
Family :Pomacentridae
Life span : 4 - 6 years, possibly longer
Max Size : Up to 3 inches (8 cm)
PH : 8.1 - 8.4
Temperature : 75°F - 80°F (24°C - 27°C)
Origin / Habitat : Indo-Pacific
Temperament / Behavior : This one can be moderately aggressive. Aggression can be lessened or spread out if you have 3 to 7 in your aquarium.
Diet / Fish Food : Omnivore - try to give them a variety of foods. They will take vitamin enriched flake foods, frozen and definitely live foods.
Tank Region : Middle to bottom
Gender : Difficult to determine

tanks4thememories
04-19-2010, 07:50 PM
If you acknowledge the advice being given why aren't you acting on it? Your tank is going to fail and your fish are going to die.

If you acknowledge reading this WHOLE thread why are you asking rhetorical questions? Your Reading comprehension teacher/professor is going to think he/she has failed, and you are going to always post questions in threads that have already been answered.....lol

Seriously, Read the thread and it is all explained. Your opinion is 100% welcome, & respected in this thread but not if it is posted repetitiously.:hmm3grin2orange:

Chris5150
04-19-2010, 08:31 PM
If you acknowledge reading this WHOLE thread why are you asking rhetorical questions? Your reading comprehension teacher/professor is going to think he/she has failed. and you are going to always post questions in threads that have already been answered.....lol

Seriously, read the thread and it is all explained. Your opinion is 100% welcome (no comma needed) & respected in this thread but not if it is posted repetitiously.:hmm3grin2orange:

Corrections are in bold. The question regarding taking peoples advice was not rhetorical. Please answer it.

MCHRKiller
04-19-2010, 08:54 PM
Ill for one never see how the OP could ever validate shoving those fish into that tank, experimental or not...the outcome is very very predictable and its not that the fish forsaken to this experiment will thrive. The marine hobby has done a 180 since 15 years ago, methods and practices then are by no means standard now. Thus why people today have a much much higer margin of success than back then.

I do find it ammusing that grown adults on a forum arguing over marine keeping resort to arguing in the middle of it over punctuation and grammar...it is a forum not an APA thesis thus it honestly does not matter as it has nothing to do with the point.

tanks4thememories
04-19-2010, 09:13 PM
Corrections are in bold. The question regarding taking peoples advice was not rhetorical.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetorical
"rhetorical
Main Entry: rhe·tor·i·cal
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈtȯr-i-kəl, -ˈtär-\
Variant(s): also rhe·tor·ic \ri-ˈtȯr-ik, -ˈtär-\
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century

1 a : of, relating to, or concerned with rhetoric b : employed for rhetorical effect; especially : asked merely for effect with no answer expected <a rhetorical question>
2 a : given to rhetoric : grandiloquent b : verbal

— rhe·tor·i·cal·ly \-i-k(ə-)lē\ adverb "

Since the question was asked in varying degrees several times in this thread. and each time was answered in yet more detail. I apologize for assuming your question was rhetorical. Please let me know how you would prefer to reference the asking of a question that has already been answered?



Please answer it.

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showpost.php?p=737472&postcount=64


Yes, I'm experimenting to see first hand just how Valuable the filter is in the equation of a salt water tank. I already know you can run a tank with LR only. I have read much info on running FO, So basically I'm trying to run a SW FO tank for the experience. I only added the live rock to kick start the filter. BTW Just added another pound & about 4 more pounds of LR detritus (cheap mans Live sand...lol) Just to add a little more safety cushion for the fish in there already. Also replaced the Blue damsel that died with a Yellow Tail Damsel of the same size just to keep the stock lvl at 5. I'm going to run FO for about a year and get the hang of it and the problems that will occur, then I will convert it to LR. Run that for about 2-4 yrs, then finally ill make a reef and that will be the final role of this tank.

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showpost.php?p=737017&postcount=57

Well, I'll let ya know. Ive found there is no substitute for your own experience and experimentation. That is the purpose of starting this tank this way anyway. I don't want a lot of LR to start off with I just wanted enough to inoculate the FX5 with live cultures. I know you can actually bio filter a tank with nothing more than LR. I'm trying to find the actual effectiveness of a canister filter w/ minimum LR. Then Later on Ill add plenty LR after cycle. Who knows this may not work but one way or the other I will learn from the experience and have my own set of Scientific data on which to base my advice and decisions in the future.



I do find it amusing that grown adults on a forum arguing over marine keeping resort to arguing in the middle of it over punctuation and grammar...it is a forum not an APA thesis thus it honestly does not matter as it has nothing to do with the point.
LOL ..you are right, totally counter productive. I love debating and could go all day but Sorry Chris5150 I don't wanna play anymore...:14: No more on this question please:hmm3grin2orange: Hehehe

Chris5150
04-20-2010, 03:03 AM
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetorical
"rhetorical
Main Entry: rhe·tor·i·cal
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈtȯr-i-kəl, -ˈtär-\
Variant(s): also rhe·tor·ic \ri-ˈtȯr-ik, -ˈtär-\
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century

1 a : of, relating to, or concerned with rhetoric b : employed for rhetorical effect; especially : asked merely for effect with no answer expected <a rhetorical question>
2 a : given to rhetoric : grandiloquent b : verbal

— rhe·tor·i·cal·ly \-i-k(ə-)lē\ adverb "

Since the question was asked in varying degrees several times in this thread. and each time was answered in yet more detail. I apologize for assuming your question was rhetorical. Please let me know how you would prefer to reference the asking of a question that has already been answered?



http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showpost.php?p=737472&postcount=64



http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showpost.php?p=737017&postcount=57



LOL ..you are right, totally counter productive. I love debating and could go all day but Sorry Chris5150 I don't wanna play anymore...:14: No more on this question please:hmm3grin2orange: Hehehe

You've missed the point completely. Enjoy your experiment.

tanks4thememories
04-20-2010, 05:50 PM
Theres new pics a few posts back. ..enjoy!!

coachfraley
04-20-2010, 07:29 PM
If I had a tank with your dimensions, I would make a rock "column" that goes all the way up the back of the tank. You could drill holes in the rock and use acrylic rods to hold it all in place. It would hide that PVC pipe in the back and it would create a cool background...just a thought.

tanks4thememories
04-20-2010, 09:43 PM
If I had a tank with your dimensions, I would make a rock "column" that goes all the way up the back of the tank. You could drill holes in the rock and use acrylic rods to hold it all in place. It would hide that PVC pipe in the back and it would create a cool background...just a thought.
That would be pretty awesome. Ill look into that. I hate the way taped on backgrounds look:scry:

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-21-2010, 01:45 AM
Something for you to think about in regards to your lionfish and the dimensions of the tank. I've seen quite a few Volatins in my LFS and different times, and they all have the same reaction to confined spaces. You will find them nose down backed up against something and never moving. While I realize that these are not very active fish, they are more active then that. This behavior is a reaction to being in a tank that is much too small for them. These fish were in spaces that have about the same footprint as your tank, and were only 3" in length. I think you are going to be highly disappointed within no time.

Here's another problem for you to think about. In that confined of a space, just how do you intend to clean the glass in that tank? You are going to get coralline algae form on the viewable sides of that tank and you are going to want to clean it.

tanks4thememories
04-21-2010, 03:25 AM
Something for you to think about in regards to your lionfish and the dimensions of the tank. I've seen quite a few Volatins in my LFS and different times, and they all have the same reaction to confined spaces. You will find them nose down backed up against something and never moving.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2677/4536692470_284e1591eb_m.jpg
Yup Just like this fumanchu


While I realize that these are not very active fish, they are more active then that. This behavior is a reaction to being in a tank that is much too small for them. These fish were in spaces that have about the same footprint as your tank, and were only 3" in length. I think you are going to be highly disappointed within no time.
Ive mostly observed this behavior when the fish is relatively new to the tank and/or there isn't much "cover" or landscaping. If I find my fish behaving in this way I would defiantly return him to the LFS. I pride myself in knowing and watching for the signs of stress in my fish. Also in being able to remove the cause of the stress.


Here's another problem for you to think about. In that confined of a space, just how do you intend to clean the glass in that tank? You are going to get coralline algae form on the viewable sides of that tank and you are going to want to clean it.
I'm impressed that you would think of this. This tank was brought new about a year or more ago. I'm no stranger to the benefits and short comings of this type of tank. I have used it as: Feeder tank, Oscar Tank, Grow out Tank. Because of the difficulties accessing the inside of the tank I have special nets and such to perform typical maintainance. My favorite tool is the magnet scraper...man I love that thing...lol

PS So far the only type of fish I have noticed that had issue with this tank was Balas. They really need lateral room. I may not document all of my tanks and activities on this forum (mostly because I know the reactions to certain things one may do in this hobby already..lol) But this tank has seen a lot of service to date. All fresh water though. Its about 4-6 months before I do anything with predators in this tank anyway. Right now I will just focus on cycling and landscaping and mechanical systems.

tanks4thememories
04-21-2010, 04:36 AM
Ok well just as I had hopes the additional 1 pound of LR and 4 Pounds of Live Sand did the trick ammo appears to be cycled now...whooohooo!!!
Here is latest readings 0-.50-5.0. :19: Nitrite seems to be climbing steady so I don't think it will be too much longer. I noticed since I repositioned the nozzles on the fx5 the damsels don't seem to like the current that much. I trimmed down the output about 25% they seemed to like it better.

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-21-2010, 10:33 AM
I'm impressed that you would think of this. This tank was brought new about a year or more ago. I'm no stranger to the benefits and short comings of this type of tank. I have used it as: Feeder tank, Oscar Tank, Grow out Tank. Because of the difficulties accessing the inside of the tank I have special nets and such to perform typical maintainance. My favorite tool is the magnet scraper...man I love that thing...lol

A magnet scraper isn't going to take care of coralline unless you have the new kind that flips over and has a blade on it. You are going to have to stick your hand in there. Even with the telescopic scrapers you will need your hand in there as you can't apply enough pressure to get the coralline off.

labnjab
04-21-2010, 11:12 AM
Even with the telescopic scrapers you will need your hand in there as you can't apply enough pressure to get the coralline off.

I get nervous sticking my hand in our in our 75 gallon with a foxface rabbit fish. I wouldn't dare do it in a small extra tall tank with a lion fish. That's just asking to be stung

tanks4thememories
04-21-2010, 12:15 PM
I get nervous sticking my hand in our in our 75 gallon with a foxface rabbit fish. I wouldn't dare do it in a small extra tall tank with a lion fish. That's just asking to be stung
Yeah I have special equipment and procedures for dealing with potentially hazardous fish, My hands wont be in there often but when they do I restrict the fish in question and use things like this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3236/2884928239_4f4e34b099_b.jpg
CORALIFE" "AQUA GLOVES" PN# AF9505 - www.esuweb.com

rageybug
04-21-2010, 03:20 PM
I just read through this entire thread for the first time and my first reaction is... this guy is nuts. Sorry, but that is how I feel. This tank is destined to fail. Any sized lionfish will suffer in this tank. Why you ask? They need live rock to hide in. Ever see a lionfish cruising out in the middle of the ocean? They require caves to survive. In order for you to keep a lionfish happy you will need at least 20lbs of live rock caves. Once you have that amount of LR in the tank, you will be left with about a 25g tank. Would you still keep all of those fish in a 25g tank? Something tells me you would but I doubt you will find another SW keeper here that would. Also, a tank full of damsels is like a tank full of piranhas. These little guys will shred most fish that you keep with them. The lionfish will not be bothered due to it's spines but the frogfish will be tormented. The damsels need caves too.

I am all for setting up a new tank and diving into the hobby. I am an even bigger fan of getting a SW keeper back in the game after so long. I just can't support the method in which you are doing this. The collective advice of the AC seems to be falling of deaf ears in this thread.

You have asked for advise in this thread about what to do and what to stock but seem to miss the best advise given. It is your tank and your money to spend so have at it. I'll put in the inevitable "I told you so" now so I won't need to later.

I can't help but notice how many SW members have stayed away from this thread altogether. That tells me a lot....

tanks4thememories
04-21-2010, 06:28 PM
I just read through this entire thread for the first time and my first reaction is... this guy is nuts. Sorry, but that is how I feel. This tank is destined to fail. Any sized lionfish will suffer in this tank. Why you ask? They need live rock to hide in. Ever see a lionfish cruising out in the middle of the ocean? They require caves to survive. In order for you to keep a lionfish happy you will need at least 20lbs of live rock caves. Once you have that amount of LR in the tank, you will be left with about a 25g tank. Would you still keep all of those fish in a 25g tank? Something tells me you would but I doubt you will find another SW keeper here that would. Also, a tank full of damsels is like a tank full of piranhas. These little guys will shred most fish that you keep with them. The lionfish will not be bothered due to it's spines but the frogfish will be tormented. The damsels need caves too.

I am all for setting up a new tank and diving into the hobby. I am an even bigger fan of getting a SW keeper back in the game after so long. I just can't support the method in which you are doing this. The collective advice of the AC seems to be falling of deaf ears in this thread.

You have asked for advise in this thread about what to do and what to stock but seem to miss the best advise given. It is your tank and your money to spend so have at it. I'll put in the inevitable "I told you so" now so I won't need to later.

I can't help but notice how many SW members have stayed away from this thread altogether. That tells me a lot....

How many LionFish are actually in the tank right now? It amazes me at the capacity of people to get upset and become self righteous over a discussion on what someone "Wants" to do.
I have kept fresh water fish for many years and the principles are much the same. There are many SW FO tanks up and running in this hobby. I am not disagreeing with anyone I'm just not forcing my OPINION on anyone nor do I accept anyone FORCING theirs on me. I am simply collecting advice on what the "Majority" Feels is best, and then using it in the final decisions on how I wish to proceed in MY aquarium. What is the worst Vice known to man? ADVICE Among those who give it, what is the most unrecognized facet of advice? The recipient does not have to use it (Even if they asked for it)

If one reads between the lines in this thread and has a fundamental understanding of the principals at work here, then they would note that shortly after the cycle has completed and way before adding predators , I will be working on landscaping and the mechanical aspects of the tank. When I add any rock to the tank it will eventually become "LIVE" this is un avoidable provided it is suitable for colonization. And I would actually be NUTS to choose rock that prevents life....lol Keeping the inhabitants stress free would involve places for them to hide. As to your concept on the usable water and such after decorations and all, it is very interesting, however it is no different than the percentage of usable water left in any other tank once landscaped. I will work on the plans I decide to follow and adjust as I see fit.

As to your "I told you so" comment. Yes if no one irritates me to the point of closing this thread. You and those who agree with your point of view will get the opportunity (should it arise) to say just that and at that time any additional embellishments on your original statements and concepts will be warranted. Until such time, please curb the emotional theatrics "This guy is nuts". and stick to statements of your opinion in a factual manner and take a deep breath because the world wont stop turning because I'm keeping a SW tank in a way that you feel is "NUTS"...lol

PS I have done many experiments in the past some successful others not. I do not post them in the forums because people can be very closed minded and dogmatic and emotionally carried away in their beliefs as if another person doing something different is somehow attacking their very essence of existence. Dude it is an experiment (no fish will intentionally be harmed during this experiment), and as you can see if you read the whole thread (as you say you have) my water parameters are currently on track to cycle this tank with fish and with a minimum addition of LR. I only lost 1 fish so far. That fish died soon after purchase so it is debatable wether my tank parameters had much to do with his passing if anything at all. ESPECIALLY since the others lived and so did his replacement. Will It fail at the end? Will it fail tomorrow? I don't know, intact if I did know the outcome it wouldn't be an experiment.

I LOVE INPUT!! It is welcome I can however do without the theatrical, sarcastic, self righteous, emotional, rhetoric. Just say what you think,say why you think so, and keep it civil and based on facts. In the end if I keep this journal updated the facts will bare the burden of proof not the opinions we pontificate.

PPS IMHO if they are like me, a lot of people are staying away from this thread because they are bullied by those who would force their opinions on others and turn an otherwise harmless Journal thread asking for opinions into a debate on Animal Morality , theatrics,, grammar, punctuality, and everything but the facts on the fish and parameters involved. I cant blame them I don't post many of my experiments for the very same reasons. Heck this is a hobby forum why would anyone need to call another person names or assume an antagonistic tone (In their own Journal thread no less) even if you apologize in the next sentence and that IS how you feel. ESPECIALLY if as all of this is going on in the foreground you observe that the tank IS cycling exactly as I originally desired it to and ahead of schedule with no deaths!!!...lol

History has taught us one thing if, nothing else "The majority does not effect reality, only the widely accepted perception of reality" - The loudest screamer, the most insulting, the most convincing argument, or even the most people in accord does not make things real. There is nothing that can make something real, reality is not created except in our own minds, but here in the physical world I submit to you that reality is proven not created.

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-21-2010, 10:11 PM
I do not post them in the forums because people can be very closed minded and dogmatic and emotionally carried away in their beliefs as if another person doing something different is somehow attacking their very essence of existence

Don't confuse closed mindedness with knowledge. Just because someone has knowledge of something you don't and expresses it doesn't make them closed minded. Everyone here that is telling you not to keep the Lionfish in that tank is doing so because they have knowledge about it.



Will It fail at the end? Will it fail tomorrow? I don't know, intact if I did know the outcome it wouldn't be an experiment.

Tanks, you are not the first person to try things like this. There is a reason people here know that it is bound to fail. It's because people have done it, and they have learned what works and what doesn't. Through trial and error, they have discovered what a suitable environment is for these creatures. I'm all for experimentation, but when I decide to do an experiment that has been done, and the facts proven by people with far more experience then myself, then the idea that I can somehow make it work is nothing short of arrogance.[/quote]


In the end if I keep this journal updated the facts will bare the burden of proof not the opinions we pontificate. The opinions being pontificated are based on knowledge. They are based on the collective experiences of the many who have gone before us in this hobby. They are opinions based on facts. The facts have already born the burden of proof, and they have proven everything that has been stated here in opposition to the keeping of a lionfish in this tank.


IMHO if they are like me, a lot of people are staying away from this thread because they are bullied by those who would force their opinions on others

Again, I think you have completely missed the point and misinterpreted things here. Nobody here is bullying you, they are trying to get you to see the facts. Yes, this hobby is full of mostly opinions, but there are some things that are facts and it is important for every hobbyist to learn to distinguish between those.

.

Honestly, I don't care if you are trying to do a FO SW tank. I know they can be done, there are far more people out there doing them then many realize. There is nothing wrong with doing a FO tank. In fact, there are many that have done a FO tank with minimal live rock and kept Predators as well, so that's not my issue with this tank. My issue is simply your attempt to put an fish in an unsuitable environment, an environment that has been proven in the past not to work.


I submit to you that reality is proven not created.

I found this statement to be immensely ironic. Reality has been proven, and we have been trying to show it to you for the last 9 pages. I believe my sig quote is quite appropriate at this point: "The capacity to learn is a gift; The ability to learn is a skill; The WILLINGNESS to learn is a choice."

Rhaethe
04-21-2010, 10:38 PM
Aren't FO saltwater tanks the "old school" style of doing marine tanks ... and the FOWLR and Reef tanks methods more recent in the scheme of things? I do remember my paternal dad setting up marine tanks for his buds omg years ago ... and he only used fish, no live rock or sand.

Found a picture of quite a few FO setups on the interwebs ... one looked nice to me ... http://www.aquahobby.com/tanks/e_tank0504.php

Anywho, it will be interesting to see what kind of fish get placed in there. Having had tall tanks, I found it was better for me visually (and better for the fish) to snag livestock that liked vertical over horizontal.

tanks4thememories
04-21-2010, 11:02 PM
Aren't FO saltwater tanks the "old school" style of doing marine tanks ... and the FOWLR and Reef tanks methods more recent in the scheme of things? I do remember my paternal dad setting up marine tanks for his buds omg years ago ... and he only used fish, no live rock or sand.

Found a picture of quite a few FO setups on the interwebs ... one looked nice to me ... http://www.aquahobby.com/tanks/e_tank0504.php

Anywho, it will be interesting to see what kind of fish get placed in there. Having had tall tanks, I found it was better for me visually (and better for the fish) to snag livestock that liked vertical over horizontal.

Yeah Technically I cant say this is FO cause I did use some LR to kick the cycle..lol But yup FO is old school. I'm not planning on keeping it this way permanently just want to see how the cycling goes and what issues arise for a few months then on to true FOWLR then in a year or 2 on to Reef. Just my way of gaining the experience of keeping all 3 types without having 3 tanks..lol I'm still working on the stocking. I defiantly want Predators and I'm really attracted to frogfish so we will see what develops..lol

BTW Just tested water here is results: 0-0-.25 ...lol See if it stays that way and I do believe its cycled...lol

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 12:36 AM
Its still early yet but the tank is at 0-0-0 now and holding. It appears the LR is also processing nitrates. So to those who said I could not cycle a 47 Gal SW tank with 3 Lbs of LR and a FX5 I say nanny nanny boo boo...lol and to those who said my tank would fail and my fish would all die I say the same...lol
Although I'm very sure my Fx5 is no where near colonized yet I will have to devise some test to see if the FX5 can handle the load solo yet not jeopardize the LR. Ive got time though cause I'm sure I should wait at least 1 month to be sure the FX5 is fully functioning as a bio-filter. But any way for those who missed it......Nanny nanny booo boo....rotfl:hmm3grin2orange:

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 01:25 AM
I just read through this entire thread for the first time and my first reaction is... this guy is nuts. Sorry, but that is how I feel. This tank is destined to fail. Any sized lionfish will suffer in this tank. Why you ask? They need live rock to hide in. Ever see a lionfish cruising out in the middle of the ocean? They require caves to survive. In order for you to keep a lionfish happy you will need at least 20lbs of live rock caves. Once you have that amount of LR in the tank, you will be left with about a 25g tank. Would you still keep all of those fish in a 25g tank? Something tells me you would but I doubt you will find another SW keeper here that would. Also, a tank full of damsels is like a tank full of piranhas. These little guys will shred most fish that you keep with them. The lionfish will not be bothered due to it's spines but the frogfish will be tormented. The damsels need caves too.


How did you read the whole thread and not see the part where the damsels are purely for cycling and eventually will be replaced by the predators? Also the water displacement formula that you are using isnt completely accurate. A more accurate formula for the displacement of water by live rock in an salt water aquarium is approximately 7.48 gallons per 85 lbs of rock this is due in large to the porosity of the rock.

MCHRKiller
04-22-2010, 01:45 AM
The specific type of LR is also a factor to displacement, some rock is more dense than others.

Also somewhat cycling a marine tank with a couple lbs of LR is not a miracle or even really an accomplishment. Tons of reefers setup their tanks with a few lbs of live rock and dead base rock...its not that uncommon. I also dont recall anyone saying that you couldnt do it, the main focus on this thread has been you shouldnt put those fish in that tank and expect them not to suffer. That is also not an emotion driven response, it is based on years of marine keeping and known facts.

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 01:46 AM
A magnet scraper isn't going to take care of coralline unless you have the new kind that flips over and has a blade on it. You are going to have to stick your hand in there. Even with the telescopic scrapers you will need your hand in there as you can't apply enough pressure to get the coralline off.

This tank has been in service for over a year as a FW tank and I have had little trouble removing algae with the magnetic scrapers thus never needing to put my hands into the water except in extreme circumstances. Even with "Safe" fish It is my policy to try to stick my hands aquarium water as little as possible.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4541728773_c2ffacff59.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tanks4thememories/4542362358/

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4031/4541728861_948765d3ee.jpg

Chris5150
04-22-2010, 02:33 AM
That scraper won't do anything for coraline. I have the identical one on my 20long. You will still need a razor. Another thing to clear up is that no one on this board is bullying you and I'm sorry if it coming across that way. I really do hope you decide against keeping a lionfish in this tank, although you probably won't. One last thing is a quote from a while back that I can't begin to make sense of.

"I believe the non human creatures of this planet are resources, here to edify us and for us to manage wisely. "

Really? You honestly beleive that? (rhetorical this time)

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-22-2010, 02:46 AM
That's exactly what I have tanks, and like Chris said, that isn't going to do a thing for coralline algae. While coral may be the building blocks of a reef, the coralline algae is the glue that holds it all together. Anything short of a blade and some elbow grease will not take it off.

Rhaethe
04-22-2010, 02:48 AM
That's exactly what I have tanks, and like Chris said, that isn't going to do a thing for coralline algae. While coral may be the building blocks of a reef, the coralline algae is the glue that holds it all together. Anything short of a blade and some elbow grease will not take it off.

That's due to the calcium carbonate in the cell walls of the algae, yes?

(I've been reading! :) )

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 03:08 AM
That's exactly what I have tanks, and like Chris said, that isn't going to do a thing for coralline algae. While coral may be the building blocks of a reef, the coralline algae is the glue that holds it all together. Anything short of a blade and some elbow grease will not take it off.

Hmm ok ill have to do some research on how to work on that stuff then...lol Ty for the info...:)

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-22-2010, 03:57 AM
Hmm ok ill have to do some research on how to work on that stuff then...lol Ummm.... read the last sentence of that post then. I gave you the answer. Yes, it is the collective knowledge and experience of many many hobbyists.

rageybug
04-22-2010, 04:20 AM
I still say you are nuts. Call it what you want "dude" but this experiment you are running is ridiculous. You are a tool, and I am a bully. Now we can all move on.

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 04:49 AM
"I believe the non human creatures of this planet are resources, here to edify us and for us to manage wisely. "

Really? You honestly beleive that? (rhetorical this time)

yes I do.:hmm3grin2orange: Theres enough chaos going on already with just the journal of my tank so for now ill keep that concept to myself or I will never get to posting and recieving Facts on this tank and its inhabitants...lol

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 04:52 AM
Ummm.... read the last sentence of that post then. I gave you the answer. Yes, it is the collective knowledge and experience of many many hobbyists.
You mean:

Anything short of a blade and some elbow grease will not take it off.

Yes I read it and I said ty for info and I will do more research on it? Was that a bad reply? You do realize I have read many of your posts and I highly value and respect your opinion. Just because I do not follow a given procedure you have found to be effective does not mean I respect or value your opinion any less?

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 04:58 AM
I still say you are nuts. Call it what you want "dude" but this experiment you are running is ridiculous. You are a tool, and I am a bully. Now we can all move on.

OOook. We'll just leave this post alone....lol

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 05:16 AM
The tank has cycled even though some have said my "tank would fail and the fish would all die" Why are there no comments on this FACT? Especially from those who said otherwise?

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 06:00 AM
A magnet scraper isn't going to take care of coralline unless you have the new kind that flips over and has a blade on it.

Sorry I missed this post. Sometimes it takes a while when postings get hot and heavy:14:..lol.
This sounds very promising, I will look into this type as well. Thanks again :)

coachfraley
04-22-2010, 06:11 AM
I am not surprised that your tank "cycled". You have about 2 lbs. of rock in a 47g tank. I was actually surprised that you even saw readable amounts of ammonia and nitrites. I think your problem in the long run is going to be that you basically have the amount of live rock needed for a 3g pico. Most people put a clown goby in a 3g tank. Granted, you have more water volume, but you are asking a pico sized bio-filter to take care of a big predator fish.

I am not trying to be mean, just giving my opinion...but I think you would be much better off if you added at least 20lbs. of rock to your tank. It is really worth it for the de-nitrification that the live rock will perform.

Either way, good luck with your setup.

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 06:41 AM
I am not surprised that your tank "cycled". You have about 2 lbs. of rock in a 47g tank. I was actually surprised that you even saw readable amounts of ammonia and nitrites. I think your problem in the long run is going to be that you basically have the amount of live rock needed for a 3g pico. Most people put a clown goby in a 3g tank. Granted, you have more water volume, but you are asking a pico sized bio-filter to take care of a big predator fish.

I am not trying to be mean, just giving my opinion...but I think you would be much better off if you added at least 20lbs. of rock to your tank. It is really worth it for the de-nitrification that the live rock will perform.

Either way, good luck with your setup.

Honestly, this post was not mean or offensive in any way. I appreciate the tone of your remarks and I appreciate the info. I'm not doing the Pred for quite some time yet. Right now its just fine tuning the tank and the mechanics. Question what about the FX5? Isn't it doing bio-filtration also?

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 07:44 AM
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4007/4542867940_36be2aa24a.jpg

This is a night time picture. During the day time all the fish occupy the middle to upper region of the tank and all get along fine. During nite time (when lights go out) however I have observed fish A - (Blue Damsel) Flaring and chasing any other Blue Damsel (Fish B & C) away from the bottom of the tank, and I mean the whole bottom of the tank...lol I imagine this is due to the lack of real estate as in the small foot print of the tank. I know they can be aggressive towards their own kind but I only know this from reading and I am not personally familiar with Blue Damsel behavior so I figured I would ask what others think? I'm thinking now that the tank is cycled and I will be adding more structure to the bottom of the tank this might resolve some of the aggression but I also think I may just take the other two Blue Damsels back to the LFS and replace them with something else. This leads me to my other question which is what do you guys think would get along well in this tank for a year or so till I decide on my predators? Something Active and hardy please I don't enjoy boring fish..lol

MCHRKiller
04-22-2010, 07:52 AM
Honestly there isnt much that is going to get along and enjoy that tank unless you get a good verticle scape...most fish that would fit in there are reef dwellers and feel more secure near a rock structure. Then you will be limited to very small fish around 3" max adult size.

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 08:10 AM
Honestly there isnt much that is going to get along and enjoy that tank unless you get a good verticle scape...most fish that would fit in there are reef dwellers and feel more secure near a rock structure. Then you will be limited to very small fish around 3" max adult size.
TY :ssmile:

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-22-2010, 10:56 AM
If you really want a fish that has some attitude that would work well in that tank, you may want to look into a Royal Gramma rather then any preds. They have some fascinating behavior and would honestly do well in that high tank. Another great choice for a tall tank like that would be a Jaw Fish, you just need a little more substrate for one of those.

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 11:04 AM
If you really want a fish that has some attitude that would work well in that tank, you may want to look into a Royal Gramma rather then any preds. They have some fascinating behavior and would honestly do well in that high tank. Another great choice for a tall tank like that would be a Jaw Fish, you just need a little more substrate for one of those.


Ty Ill check em out!!

rageybug
04-22-2010, 03:42 PM
I know this is the first time you are hearing about this concept so I'll try to go slow for you. Your damsels are fighting over the tiny amount of LR you have. They will kill each other to defend that tiny little area. This is why you need LR in the tank. Removing two of the damsels and adding a different fish will only make this problem worse. Once that blue damsel has established the entire bottom of that tank as it's own territory, it will shred almost any other fish you add afterwards. Damsels need to go in the tank last (strike one), or you need to have enough LR for them (strike two) or a big tank (strike three). Do you see where this is going yet?

Each time you add LR to your tank, it will cycle again, probably killing any living creatures in the tank, including fish. I will admit that most damsels can survive this but few others will.

Do you expect your LFS to continually take back SW fish that you get from them? This might work once, maybe twice but they will eventually tell you to "get bent". Good luck findng a LFS that will lend you fish.

For once, I am going to be helpfull towards you. My advise is this.... close this thread and start a new one. Maybe start the thread like this...

"Hi AC! I am a long time fish keeper but I know very little about keeping a SW tank. I am planning to build up this tank and would love to hear your opinions. I am open to what you have to say as the experience of the AC community far exceeds my knowledge. I am eager to learn about keeping SW tanks and would love to hear what I need to do. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer"

tanks4thememories
04-22-2010, 05:24 PM
I know this is the first time you are hearing about this concept so I'll try to go slow for you.
Unneccessary, childish and petty



Your damsels are fighting over the tiny amount of LR you have. They will kill each other to defend that tiny little area. This is why you need LR in the tank. Removing two of the damsels and adding a different fish will only make this problem worse. Once that blue damsel has established the entire bottom of that tank as it's own territory, it will shred almost any other fish you add afterwards. Damsels need to go in the tank last (strike one), or you need to have enough LR for them (strike two) or a big tank (strike three). Do you see where this is going yet?
Informative but also repetition of what I originally asked in the question.

I imagine this is due to the lack of real estate as in the small foot print of the tank. I know they can be aggressive towards their own kind but I only know this from reading and I am not personally familiar with Blue Damsel behavior so I figured I would ask what others think?


Each time you add LR to your tank, it will cycle again, probably killing any living creatures in the tank, including fish. I will admit that most damsels can survive this but few others will.
I understand this and if you notice I will not be adding LR I will be adding Structure rock which will eventually become LR once again PLEASE take the time to read? Another solution that was discussed was to cure the LR externally if I do use it, another trick I have learned from this experiment is adding a little at a time. Anyway...whatever.


Do you expect your LFS to continually take back SW fish that you get from them? This might work once, maybe twice but they will eventually tell you to "get bent". Good luck findng a LFS that will lend you fish.
Yes I do I live on the East coast there are litterally 100s of quality LFS within driving distance, and yes they will I have great relationships with the LFS that I shop at which is why I continue to shop with the ones I do, out of the 100s I have to choose from. And even if not its a 5.00 fish come on its no big deal to give it back and make sure it has a good home even if I get nothing or 1/3 of its value.


For once, I am going to be helpfull towards you. My advise is this.... close this thread and start a new one. Maybe start the thread like this...
"Hi AC! I am a long time fish keeper but I know very little about keeping a SW tank. I am planning to build up this tank and would love to hear your opinions. I am open to what you have to say as the experience of the AC community far exceeds my knowledge. I am eager to learn about keeping SW tanks and would love to hear what I need to do. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer"
ROTFL, you honestly don't read do you?
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showpost.php?p=717795&postcount=1

OK Folks be gentle...its been a while since I ran a salt water tank.
I'm thinking 45 gal tall Fish-Only Saltwater Lion Fish tank.
I already have the tank so all who have an opinion please feel free to share it.
Here is what I do know so far:
I love larger Predatory fish
I have the tank and the stand and plexy top
Ok folks let the suggestions begin..(I would especially love to hear from you cocoa_pleco)

PS rage you made me 10 bucks today As I bet one of my friends at home that you would resume the identical tone you have taken above...rotfl tyvm!!

To everyone -
Ok there are several arguments going on here and I've managed to get 3 people very excited over questions on what I want to do and very little actual conversation on what I have done. Im in awe, its a fish tank guys!!! LOL Ive spent more time arguing about the semantics of what I wish to do than I have actually spent working on the tank...lol This is not my idea of enjoying my hobby. I quit. I will no longer answer questions on this thread. as far as AC Ill stick to FW. I will just post my pics here and ask my SW questions elsewhere. The SW forum is all yours gentlemen.
ILuvMyGoldBarb - you seem to continuously lump yourself in with the others I have been arguing with. There was 3 simultaneous topics being argued here. 2 of the people involved in those arguments were just floating on to whatever suited their fancy as long at it was an opportunity to rage. I have not had issue with your comments they have been civil, and on topic We have both agreed and disagreed as gentlemen. The majority of what I have said has not been directed at you except when I quoted you. I even took a minute to clarify that earlier in the thread. I guess it got lost in the sauce..oh well.thumbs2:
I'm out==>==>==> :22:

On second thought I will move my journal to my blog for this tank.

Moderator please close this thread.

Chris5150
04-22-2010, 06:24 PM
tanks4thememories