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sfsamm
02-01-2018, 08:53 AM
So today going for lights out on my cull tank and had two deceased shrimp not quite full grown with failed molts laying on their side atop a sponge filter... Any ideas? The only changes in this tank was about 5 days ago I pulled the 13 CPD fry out. I also picked out a dead assassin this morning that was being devoured by pest snails (how ironic) which I thought was odd. I also have returned to twice weekly feeding since the fry are out of tank so they aren't getting leftovers.

Temp 72-74, Ph 8.2, kH 10, gH 15.... Tap does have a very high TDS according to the water report 455+ and its planted on a reduced EI fert regimen (2x weekly rather than 3x), I don't test my own TDS.

I didn't test after removing them today as it's been nuts with a new baby arriving today in the family. But Sunday during water change all parameters were totally normal (0,0,<20) I test before changing water not after. I don't think that assassin had time to foul water, and parameters should be even lower with the fry removed and three times daily feeding having stopped.

I know they kick off sometimes for unknown reasons but two failed molts in a day made me wonder what I might be missing... I had a death in my display tank a couple weeks back but it was almost entirely eaten by the time I saw it I've no idea if it was a failed molt, plus I'd just finished a Panacur treatment for planaria so I figured it was related to that.

Couple recent photos of the tank, though I doubt they will help maybe someone sees something in there that shouldn't be? I didn't think to photo corpses until it really started bugging me.

Also, there's evidence that I need to have a squirt bottle handy as I'm confident that the cat is sitting on this tank again.... Hair gobs three times in the past few days. Don't think that matters but I've only been doing shrimp a few months so I don't know... She cannot access this tank at all though it's tightly sealed, maybe/probably the least accessible tank in the house for her to touch water as in the beginning shrimp kept climbing out the airline tubing holes lol.

I could be over thinking this too as I've had about 3.5 hours sleep in the last 2.5 days... Shush me if that's the case :) https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/816a52b07fc3558b7184f6a1b1f62eba.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/937439264a16ff09483f7f7f720e86c7.jpg

Slaphppy7
02-01-2018, 01:12 PM
Only thing (besides the cat) that has changed thay may be affecting params is you dosing ferts...I would stop dosing for now

One single dead assassin wouldn't be enough to foul the water, IMO

sfsamm
02-01-2018, 04:07 PM
Tank always had ferts, but I did change to the reduced EI in November. I'll dial it back to 1x a week like the real low light tanks though.

Slaphppy7
02-01-2018, 04:22 PM
Why not invest in a TDS meter?...they're inexpensive and easy to use

I have this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002T6L5M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Rocksor
02-01-2018, 04:35 PM
Maybe lack of iodine in the water? Like maybe 1 drop of aquarium purpose iodine a week, no more than 2.

sfsamm
02-01-2018, 05:20 PM
Maybe lack of iodine in the water? Like maybe 1 drop of aquarium purpose iodine a week, no more than 2.I've seen iodine for sulawesi, I wouldn't have thought for neos. I will look into it!

Slap I've just not quite sold myself on a TDS meter yet, they're inexpensive though you're right. I keep considering it and just haven't done it.

sfsamm
02-06-2018, 01:27 AM
Back to this.... I definitely have a shrimp issue, both tanks... One dead one dying (euthanized it) in the display this afternoon, cull tank is looking obviously thinner and I'm only seeing 2 full grown shrimp in the display. Plus that assassin death... I'm going to start small daily water changes on both, no ferts no excel nothing but a full dose of prime. Can't this afternoon as I'm literally walking out the door for work... Anyone have any ideas?

The one I euthanized was swimming on his side with his legs curled up like he was dead.... I'm still thinking something with molting as I'm not seeing as many corpses as I would think... Maybe I'm wrong. Ideas? I looked into iodine but it seems that I shouldn't need it for neos. Maybe I didn't see something important?

sfsamm
02-06-2018, 02:11 AM
Thinking about this.... I may be imagining the reduction of numbers... I also may be just noticing it for the first time... But I am confident I have something going on. I went ahead and blew my routine and squeaked into work at the last minute to do water changes.... 10% on the cull tank and 20% on the display tank (10 & 5 gallons respectively) so a gallon from each... I'll do it again in the morning after work for both and just do the twice daily gallon at a time changes, takes only a couple moments...

I wonder if it's one of those issues that's built up over time after having changed ferts in November? Since it's both tanks and I haven't culled in weeks because of planaria then new baby coming so nothings moved between tanks in a long time... I was originally concerned about the photo in my first post but the deaths today were a juvenile of Sakura grade quality with absolutely nothing apparently wrong and a semi adult fire red quality again with nothing wrong that I could see. No parasites, no bacteria, no fungal issues, completely living colored not pinkish or white neither looked to be at all discolored under the exoskeleton, neither being painted fire quality I was easily able to see complete normalcy in them.... I think that disturbs me the most.

Some toxicity from the ferts is my thoughts, lots and lots of water is my go to on this one unless someone has another idea? I'm completely open.

Rocksor
02-06-2018, 02:33 AM
did you add something for the planaria in both tanks?

sfsamm
02-06-2018, 02:38 AM
did you add something for the planaria in both tanks?Nope only had planaria in the display tank the cull tank didn't and doesn't currently have planaria.

I didn't share any equipment between tanks during planaria nor after... I have separate syphon and bucket for both as I actually usually WC them at the same time. The display syphon is stored in the bucket in the house, cull bucket is stored under the display bucket and cull syphon is stored in the garage next to my python.

sfsamm
02-06-2018, 02:46 AM
Come to think of it.... I only have the one small net, usually only used to recapture shrimplets from display tank.... I did use it to catch the last two CPD fry when they went to their new home.

For whatever reason I never suck up shrimplets in the cull tank, bigger syphon I think.

sfsamm
02-06-2018, 02:51 AM
Whatever is up all the shrimp look great every day twice a day when I check everyone.... Then they just are dead and at least one was swimming on his side across the bottom of the tank. Everyone always appears healthy. But I have that huge Crypt and stone in the display tank, and cull tank is a Christmas moss and crypt Jungle so realistically its very very easy for a shrimp to be out of sight if it's ill.

sfsamm
02-06-2018, 10:03 AM
So everything I'm reading tonight mentions copper, back to my water report.... I'm a dunce. As much as I studied it working out ferts I completely ignored copper readings or misread them. Copper at the tap averaged .392 in 2016 (my most recently available report) which after scouring for a different answer, much to my dismay is pretty much the top end for neos and I feel like a terrible keeper for not knowing this. Moving to the dry ferts they have a scarcely higher amount of copper than seachem (which precipitates out in my water especially iron)... I did pay attention to copper in my ferts but not on my report... Gah darn it.

Alright so copper and I'm just hitting their limits I think... Water changes will help, kind of, stopping ferts will help, kind of. Either way I'm at that top end and having dealt with fairly dramatic swings in chemistry at the tap seasonally before I imagine copper can tick up or down as well and that or the ferts or a combination of the two is likely my issue.

I guess I should get a bit more serious about RODI or some sort if copper filtering. I could run some Cuprisorb but that's not practical long term. I think a small RODI unit mostly to remove metals is in order. I'll still run tap in the mix rather than even trying to test my hand at a full move to RODI. I really want to keep parameters as close as possible to everything else in the house but I'm thinking that copper needs to come down one way or another so I'm not running such a fine line.

Not interested in running full RODI and remineralizing, and the huge transition that would be. Also not interested in the maintenance costs that adds to my tanks. But if anyone has tips on an inexpensive, easy to install, small unit that has inexpensive replacement filters and can do metals (I think they all do metals?) I'm interested in hearing. I literally mean small, it'll have to go off my washer hookups and as I have a small house and no space, my work space is literally the top of the dryer. :)

Challenges Challenges lol this darn water here I swear it wants to break me! One thing after another, no such thing as an easy tank in this town, I'm convinced lol https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180206/0a32265101d3e09b9fcefaf52412ca99.jpg

Rocksor
02-06-2018, 01:50 PM
You are using Prime, right?

From Seachem, http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/forum/general-discussion/1320-prime-dosage

post #10


To answer your other question about Prime and heavy metals: the standard dose of Prime (1 mL/10 gallons) will remove:

Copper - 2.6 ppm in 10 gallons
or
Lead - 8.5 ppm in 10 gallons
or
Nickel - 2.4 ppm in 10 gallons

We say "or" between each because that is the maximum amount of each that can be removed assuming none of the other components are present. So for example, one could remove 1.3 ppm of copper and 4.4 ppm of lead or any other variety of differing ratios between them. The relative order of preferential removal should be in the order of lead, then copper, then nickel.


post #17


1. Prime will bind the ions mentioned, but only after Zn, Cu, Fe, and Mn are bound and there is left over chelators. The stability constants are much higher for the original ions mentioned.

2. Since this reaction occurs immediately, it will not effect any micro nutrients that are added 10 minutes later.

3. Prime contains a chemical that will form complexes with metal ions.

4. You can add Trace 10 minutes after using Prime and those ions will not get bound, but will be available for plant utilization. The levels in our Trace product is based on a general plant requirement for growth and maintenance

post #19


Prime remains active in the water column for up to 48 hours, however, the specific component that binds the metals will typically be used up in a short amount of time if the source water contains metals. However, lets say you add it to RO water with absolutely zero metal content, then yes, you would want to wait 24-48 hours before adding any trace elements, as that component would not be diminished until Prime is no longer active. Does that make more sense?

Slaphppy7
02-06-2018, 03:08 PM
Good info, thanks Rock

sfsamm
02-06-2018, 03:13 PM
Yes I use Prime :)
Alright Rocksor, I understand the meaning of ions and how they are bound in a vague discriminating way.... Do you know or by chance can you lend a hand?
So Prime can bind bind them but does it bind them in the same fashion as Ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte where those complexes are easily broken back down to the original components after 24-48 hours or does it bind metals/minerals differently? Obviously it has capacity to bind what I have in my tap (according to the report and Seachems statements above) so I assume if it's wavering it would still have plenty of leeway.... But if it's not holding the complex bond then everything is being re-released within a couple days if it's not utilized... And if that's the case can the complexes created be utilized by the plants?

If it does bind indefinitely to create the complexes with the metals/minerals.... Then are the mineral compounds (although assumedly harmless now) building in the tank? If so how would one go about removing them before something breaks that bond? Scientifically speaking there's a myriad of ways any chemical bond can be broken and the components can be released? I'm not technically inclined in chemistry per se but understand the basic concepts well enough to know that it's got to go somewhere and metal compounds over time, I assume, is going to end up in my filtration or substrate as it's unlikely to entirely hang around the water column for easy removal.

Answering this is unlikely to resolve my issue but my curious mind is wanting to know... Might help me figure out my best approach to lining myself out, here, in the long run.

Rocksor
02-06-2018, 03:17 PM
From the way that Prime works, as I understand it, the only one temporarily bound is ammonia. Everything else is changed, and removed via water changes or consumption.

The heavy metals found in city tap water are normal levels allowed for human consumption. Prime does not work on levels of metals in water that are not safe for human consumption.

sfsamm
02-06-2018, 03:40 PM
Thanks Rocksor, I'll dig around tonight at work, see what I find also. And just FYI I do not drink our tap water myself but would assume anything put through the tap is safe unless otherwise notified by the water department. :)

sfsamm
02-06-2018, 03:54 PM
Never mind....
Houston I have a problem, insert curse words.

The front Amano shrimp. Bacterial I assume? Treat it like fish or Kanaplex in the food? Oooorrrr? How fast does this stuff go? I don't have that heater yet it's sitting with Prazipro in my Amazon cart so qt is going to get cold if I move them 60's for sure probably low 60's. And of course I'm fresh out of IAL, used the last 3 moving out my synos more should be here in a couple days. So shrimp issues any ideas on my next step. I don't even know if I should qt since it's fresh setup and no biofilm... Cull? Im going to assume I'm not able to see it in the cherries no matter the grade, until seeing it in person I didn't realize how difficult seeing it through their opaque shells would be. I'm so disappointed I could spit, these tanks haven't seen a day with nitrAtes over 20 and I somehow feel like I caused this and nailed both tanks at once. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180206/1a5fdbbad734ef0d33c1426cdd9c8625.jpg

Rocksor
02-06-2018, 03:58 PM
I don't know what causes that.

sfsamm
02-07-2018, 02:34 AM
Well I had more deaths this morning in both tanks, not sure if I had mentioned that, one in each. And I think two in the display there were some remnants from either a molt or canabalisim. But also my other assassin in the cull tank I noticed this morning was deceased....

I added guava and Mulberry leaves as I'm comfortable doing so and not so much just blindly medicating an issue I don't understand. I don't have any IAL but it should be here soon I'd reordered it Saturday. I didn't think of it till now but I'll also toss some alder cones in, I usually do that as I notice them getting thin so there's some in the tanks already but with my kH and twice daily wc going more won't hurt anything.

This afternoon though no more deaths, a relief as I've been picking out corpses somewhere everytime I check the last two days. Maybe if I can get enough clean water going through the tanks and some decent antibacterial effects and foods from the leaves I'll salvage some of my colony.

I'd really like to know what happened, I obviously spread it myself one way or another as I'm not extremely cautious but generally play it pretty safe on equipment either separate equipment like my shrimp stuff or blistering hot tap water (through the python 1-2 minutes between tanks), and that's a literal statement my tap gets WAY hot, it'll scald a hand right fast.

sfsamm
02-09-2018, 03:57 AM
Deaths stopped, everyone seems great now... No idea what that was all about. But I'm picking up RODI and moving them off the tap as I'm thinking it had to be something off in the water hitting only the shrimp.