suddenly sick angel

[fishmommie]

You have both been very helpful and what you've just said makes perfect sense. I've never considered that a larger W/C could cause issues as my tap PH is the same as my tank PH and I use a dose of prime that accommodates all 90 gallons.
BTW - checked perimeters again just now 0/0/5. ph 7.6 on the low scale and 7.3 on the high scale. so the ph has altered a tad.

So - if you were me -- would you do a small - like 20% W/C this morning? Then maybe another 20% this afternoon?
Or would you proceed even more cautiously with just 1 20% change today then wait until tomorrow to see how the fish are reacting?

Or would you simply do nothing and monitor closely?

Hesitate to assume but either way, but If a pw/c is advisable, would you NOT redose with Coppersafe to keep the level at 1.5? Instead, would you up the temp to 83F and see if the heat alone (and with the amount of copper reduced slightly in the tank) start handling the ich?

7 of the 9 fish seem to be handling all well. The angel is my big worry right now and the EBJD who had been doing much better but has now taken to hiding again and did not eat this morning.
Have no idea if the pleco is eating. He ignores the zuccini and watermelon I leave him and mostly hides. When I do see him, he is active and busy munching on his wood and while the only algae I see is a bit of brown algae on the rocks, I am assuming he is getting enough nutrition.

If you have another plan of action in mind - I'm all ears. and thank you so much!

This is my take on where we are, how we arrived there and what to now:

Initially salt was added and the temperature raised to treat the ich. This step alone was not a bad move, it may have eventually beaten the ich. This step and any change or use of any medication including salt as a medication causes a bit of stress as the fish acclimates to the conditions.

The next thing I feel caused some of the problems, the 60% water change. Unless an aging or mixing vat is used I have found that almost any water conditioner needs a certain amount of contact time to chemically contact and react with the chloramines and chlorines in the water. If the water is added directly to the aquarium we use the aquarium as the contact vat for the exposure of these two chemicals to duke it out. In the mean time there are all of the fish setting in the mix of chemicals to remove the chlorine and chlorine or chloromine. This time delay of exposure reaction exposes the tissue of the fish to the chlorine despite having removers in the water. We will call this the reaction dwell time, it could take 2 minutes or 5 or 15 for the chemical process to fully react and render the chlorine out completely. However the ability of the chlorine to burn is upon contact. It burns the soft tissues including the gills and the fine filiments of the fins. This is why the fish is holding at the surface to get a better oxygen exchange due to damaged gill tissue, the fins are clamped due to minor tissue damage on the fins. Appetite is down due to the stress of the situation of being burned a bit.

As a separate issue the copper is causing the same type of stresses and although it may not burn the tissue it does in many cases affect tissue hydration which can cause similar stress issues. Copper has many odd reactions to certain situations which make keeping it at a controlled dosage level difficult or which cause an amplified affect on the life.

So that is where we are in my opinion. Moving forward I would observe and react patiently to the progress of the situation, it can take several days to heal from a situation such as this. Water changes of 25% would be advised if done as this weakens through dilution the ability of the chlorine to be present enough to burn the fish any further.

I support doing 50% water changes weekly, but I have had problems when I do them all at once similar to the ones you are having. I do multiple 30% changes especially if I have medications in the water. Even doing a 30% and waiting 2 or 3 hours is very helpful to dilute the chlorine to an acceptable level.

Hope this is helpful.

[Indian Woods Angels]

I'm not certain that Prime and Coppersafe are friendly with each other. I use AmQuell and I try to use heat to cure ich. If the two are compatible I would use them per the shop's recomendations. I would do multiple 20% water changes to keep everything balanced and clean but I would wait to redose the copper until the reaction took place and cleared the chlorine from the tank. To put the copper and the prime and the chlorine together ups the amount of weird things in the water which will cause stress. Are you doing a copper test to determine the copper levels at 1.5?

[fishmommie]

I'm not certain that Prime and Coppersafe are friendly with each other. I use AmQuell and I try to use heat to cure ich. If the two are compatible I would use them per the shop's recomendations. I would do multiple 20% water changes to keep everything balanced and clean but I would wait to redose the copper until the reaction took place and cleared the chlorine from the tank. To put the copper and the prime and the chlorine together ups the amount of weird things in the water which will cause stress. Are you doing a copper test to determine the copper levels at 1.5?

Hi again
It never occurred to me that coppersafe and prime might clash. Unfortunately, I have no other conditioner on hand and my LFS is an hour away and wouldn't you know it - I am dealing with a lower back issue that is preventing me from driving. when it rains and all that.

I checked the copper level again this morning and per the chart it appears to be between 1. and 2.

So - multiple 20% W/C today? as in 2 or 3 several hours apart?
then forget additional coppersafe doses and up the heat to 83? 84?
I want to only do what's best for these fish.
thanks so much

[Taurus]

So - multiple 20% W/C today? as in 2 or 3 several hours apart? Then forget additional coppersafe doses and up the heat to 83? 84? I want to only do what's best for these fish.
thanks so much

That what I would do. I'd do 20% water changes morning and evening, at least 12 hours apart until the coppersafe is out of the water. Up the heat to 84 - 85.

[fishmommie]

That what I would do. I'd do 20% water changes morning and evening, at least 12 hours apart until the coppersafe is out of the water. Up the heat to 84 - 85.

thank you all very much. 20% w/c in progress. will do another tonight.

Fingers crossed and again thanks so very, very much

[Taurus]

Good read on treating ick except for the coppersafe part.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php

Remember to keep the entire surface of the tank water agitated. Heat and the coppersafe will lower water's ability to carry oxygen. Extration agitation at the surface of the water will increase gas exchange and help keep the water oxygenated.

HTH

[fishmommie]

Good read on treating ick except for the coppersafe part.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php

Remember to keep the entire surface of the tank water agitated. Heat and the coppersafe will lower water's ability to carry oxygen. Extration agitation at the surface of the water will increase gas exchange and help keep the water oxygenated.

HTH

I read that article and many more trying to determine how to treat this but I appreciate the resend. I initially started with sea salt and heat then became concerned about my Pleco - that's why I switched to the Coppersafe.

But it's back to heat only for me for now. And yes, I have a bubbler going full blast and have lowered the water level so the spray bar is really causing a ruckus on the surface. Hopefully that will add enough O2
Will increase heat gradually to 85 as suggested.

Quick question - how much Prime? When I do the 20% W/C do I add enough to cover the water replaced or enough for the entire 90 gallons?
again - thanks!

[Taurus]

Check your PMs.

[fishmommie]

Check your PMs.

I've been checking this tank daily since the trouble began. This morning the readings were
A = 0
trites = 0
trites = 5
ph (low range test) 7.6
ph (hi range test) 7.1
copper 1.5

After the 20% W/C the copper dropped to 1. Which is good.

So you know - the ONLY chemical I routinely use is Prime for conditioning. I only used the Coppersafe upon the advice of my LFS (who has had years of experience and really meant well).
Having said that, I received some Stability in the mail today along with other items I'd ordered from F&S. Should I leave well enough alone (that's my gut reaction) or might a dose of Stability help? Directions say: For optimum biofilter performance use monthly or with each W/C and whenever introducing new fish OR when medicating.

thoughts?
and thanks

[Taurus]

You don't need it. End of thought.

A wise man told me once that the best medicine for tropical fish is clean water and good food. Maybe a little extra heat.