Sick or Silly

[LadyHatred]

25g tank
Ammo: 0
'trites: 0
'trates: ~10
pH: 6.9 - 7.0
temp: 79-80

AC50 HOB
AC 20 HOB
12" of air stone

Last pwc was on Wednesday evening; 45%
Fish: 9 female bettas 4 silver-tip tetra

Problem: one female betta apears dull. Colors are all there but, by dull I mean, she's not shiny like she used to be. She swims only in circles, like she's chasing her tail. She wont eat as she's too busy making circles. She will surface for air then resume making circles. All her fins are intact.

Wednesday morning I found her stuck under the java moss blob. When I lifted the moss, she shot right to the surface and spent 10 minutes taking air. I noticed the circling thing the next day.

Any idea what this could be? All the other fish appear fine.

Cheers!

[Little Embers]

May not have anything to do with your problem, but thought it was interesting...

If you notice your Betta swimming in circles a lot, rubbing against the glass, and other sorts of odd behavior that says “Get me outta here!”, it indicates he wants to be in a larger tank.

..extract taken from http://caringforbettafish.com/blog/c...-about-bettas/

She does sound a bit stressed. She may have been resting under the java moss and you startled her, which is why she probably shot up like she did. Possibly a swim bladder problem if she seems to be having trouble maintaining balance while swimming as well.

[Kaz]

May not have anything to do with your problem, but thought it was interesting...

..extract taken from http://caringforbettafish.com/blog/c...-about-bettas/

She does sound a bit stressed. She may have been resting under the java moss and you startled her, which is why she probably shot up like she did. Possibly a swim bladder problem if she seems to be having trouble maintaining balance while swimming as well.

Bigger than a 25 gallon?

I mean, I know people say the minimum tank size for bettas is between 2.5 & 10 gallons but I don't think anybody would disagree with a 25g tank. Well, except PETA.

[Little Embers]

Bigger than a 25 gallon?

I mean, I know people say the minimum tank size for bettas is between 2.5 & 10 gallons but I don't think anybody would disagree with a 25g tank. Well, except PETA.

I thought someone would pick up on that and I had to reread it myself.

With respect and in all honesty Kaz, this is my thought on the subject. This discussion on “what size tank is appropriate for a Betta” could go on for centuries, is one that has been debated many times on the forum and probably does not need discussing again. You could ask 100 people that question and get 90 different answers, I think we all agree though that “bigger is better”. Peoples definition of "bigger" is subjective.

This is just my opinion, but when it comes down to it...All fish are meant to be in rivers, streams, lakes and oceans... not in a tank. Many can argue that captive bred fish “don’t know any better”, but that is a discussion probably had many times before as well and one that is for another time and place/thread though....

I was mainly pointing out the “swimming in circles” part. Ladyhatred does have a good size tank, but we never know how a fish really feels, one of them may feel cramped....She may be sick, or have a disorder where she is trying to bite her tail, it’s more often seen in males betas though....it is often guesswork and a process of elimination on our part!

[thrakuarium]

Stressing could be an issue. I would QT/move her to a different tank. While a 25 gallon tank is large as far as a betta is concerned, keep in mind there are 9 bettas (even females can be a bit territorial ) sharing the surface space of a 25 gallon tank. She may have gotten bullied at one point. Even if that is not the case ...the swimming in circles routine is not normal behavior. The dullness is also a sign she is not well.

[troy]

She might just be getting ready to die of old age. This is just a guess also.

[Kaz]

I thought someone would pick up on that and I had to reread it myself.

With respect and in all honesty Kaz, this is my thought on the subject. This discussion on “what size tank is appropriate for a Betta” could go on for centuries, is one that has been debated many times on the forum and probably does not need discussing again. You could ask 100 people that question and get 90 different answers, I think we all agree though that “bigger is better”. Peoples definition of "bigger" is subjective.

This is just my opinion, but when it comes down to it...All fish are meant to be in rivers, streams, lakes and oceans... not in a tank. Many can argue that captive bred fish “don’t know any better”, but that is a discussion probably had many times before as well and one that is for another time and place/thread though....

I was mainly pointing out the “swimming in circles” part. Ladyhatred does have a good size tank, but we never know how a fish really feels, one of them may feel cramped....She may be sick, or have a disorder where she is trying to bite her tail, it’s more often seen in males betas though....it is often guesswork and a process of elimination on our part!

Right, but with respect I am saying that every fish has a barebones minimum tank size, meaning that is the very LEAST size you need. For oscars it is somewhere between 60-100 gallons with the filtration.

Now, that being said, most people say that you should have at least 80-100 gallons and most people reccomend a 125 gallon tank where the oscar will be comfortable.

For bettas people say the barebones minimum of a betta is a 2.5g. Most say you should aim for 5 gallons and some say that a 10g with a small school of Tetras or Cories is the best way to keep them.

That 10g for bettas is the 125g for oscars (Well, the betta 5g/10g is heavily debated.)

Having a 25g tank is well above the comfortable size for the Betta. Like having a 200g tank with a few oscars, you aren't even pushing the limits of comfort anymore.

25g is 5 times as big as what many people reccomend (10 times bigger than barebones minimum!) and that seems to be past the point where we could encounter size problems IMO.

For the syptoms being seen I wouldn't say it was too small of a tank causing the problem, however, crowding may have been an issue which is less about the size of a tank and an individual fish but more the size of a tank and how many fish you put in it.

Granted, that doesn't mean crowding is the issue, it could be a disease.

Also, how old is the betta?

Sorry for breaking out my ranting stick Little Embers.

[Little Embers]

Sorry for breaking out my ranting stick Little Embers.

No problem

Kaz, I will just say this and then say no more on the size of tank issue!

Did anyone ask all the fish what size tank they need...No! obviously that would be impossible . Humans decided what the minimum size should be and again that can be subjective...how they originally came up with the sizes, I have no idea! It doesn't mean those sizes should be set in stone. All fish are individuals and I don't think we can expect them all to react the same, some may be happy in the size tank they live in, others not so happy for whatever reason.

Sorry to LadyHared to getting off topic!

[Little Embers]

She might just be getting ready to die of old age.

Good point!

[LadyHatred]

Might be old age. I purchased her in mid March. There is no telling how long she'd been at the store for as there is always a tank of females.

She has been mated once and recovered from the beating she took from the male.

I am thinking she has some kind of brain damage from not being able to surface for air. She was quite frantic under the moss when I found her.

I've got her in a heated tank of her own right now. I can't filter it as I have no media for it; all the extra I had has been put into the 60g. A huge oversight on my part. -.-

She did eat one pellet this morning but it took her ages to notice it. I had to kind of block her until she swam into it.

Should I just put her down? It's sad to watch.