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05-12-2010, 06:17 PM #81Member Swordtails
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
The tank is a 75 Gallon tank with an Eheim 2028 and an AquaClear 110. Has been cycled and up and running for 2 years.
My water parameters are:
pH: around 7.0
hardness: very soft
Temp: 78 degrees (increased to 84 degrees for a few days last week due to high temperatures in the area at the time)
I do a 25% water change every other week.
The tank contains/contained Rainbow Sharks, Albino Rainbow Sharks, Flying Fox, Endlers Livebearers (male), Celestial Pearl Danios (Galaxy Rasboras), Lampeye Killie, Otocinclus Catfish, Glowlight Danio, Leopard Longfin Danio, Ember Tetras, Cherry Barb, Dwarf Cory Cat.
I recently added some water-sprite plants, but the deaths were occurring before I added it. The plant came from a tank at the that had healthy looking fish, including many fry, so I doubt that is the cause of the health issues.
It may sound like a lot of fish, but other than the Sharks which range from 3-4 inches (one is about 5 inches) and the 2 Flying Foxes (2.5 inches long); all the other fish are very small, most about an inch long.
The fish that show the worst signs are the Endlers. A few of them have crooked spines, they can look like an “S” or “C” when looking down on them from above. Some of them (the normal looking ones) will stay in a corner of the tank, just below the surface. Some appear swollen only on the lower part of their bodies just where the head ends and the body begins, but as you move back along their bodies it is normal (no swollen abdomen). The rest of the Endlers look perfectly normal.
The only other fish to show any curvature is a Cherry Barb (I have 3 in total). Ever since I got them months ago one appears to have a slight lump and curvature on one side of its body, it’s very hard to see. The other 2 are fine and have grown since then. But that one has remained small. It still acts and eats normally.
Some of the Glowlight Danios have sunken in stomachs and others look perfectly normal. One recently developed Dropsy and died. One of the remaining Glowlight Danios had recently developed a dark area just past its head on one side, but it looks and acts normally otherwise.
Some of the Celestial Pearl Danios had sunken in stomachs and some would stay in a corner of the tank by the surface of the water. I added 3 more about 2 weeks ago that seemed healthy in the store, but all 3 died within a couple of days. They appeared normal before they died. All are gone now.
One of the Rainbow Sharks died the other day and showed no signs of anything wrong with him. All the other Sharks look, act and eat normally.
The Celestial Pearl Danios (Galaxy Rasboras) are all gone.
Lampeye Killie - only had one left for a while, but it just died 2 days ago.
Otocinclus Catfish - only had a couple, one died about a month ago and appeared to have a swollen abdomen, but dead body did not float, one remaining alive.
Glowlight Danio - almost all gone.
Leopard Longfin Danio - I only had one for a long time, but it died within the last week.
Ember Tetras - only had a few left since I’ve had them ever since I set up the tank about 2 years ago, but they have been dying off within the past 2 weeks, maybe only 1 or 2 left.
On a daily basis there will be 1-4 dead small fish in the tank by the time I get home from work. And the other fish will have usually already started eating them by that point. I remove them as soon as I can, but some dead fish are hidden from view behind the prefilter sponges, I only see the decomposed bodies when I clean the tank.
I don’t see any distinguishing characteristics in the dead fish. Their eyes don’t appear to be popping out. Sometimes the abdomens appear swollen, but not always, and the abdomen appears to be what the other fish eat first.
I really hope it is not Myco but some other treatable ailment.
I can take pictures when I get home tonight if you would like.
Sorry for the long post and thanks again for the help.
Last edited by nutsfu; 05-12-2010 at 06:23 PM.
05-12-2010, 07:44 PM #82
0Originally Posted by nutsfu
I appreciate you giving such detail and yes I would like to see the pictures ASAP.
Ok on to the problem.
- This defiantly sounds to be bacterial in nature.
- I am 90% convinced this is MYCO (A strong indication of this is multiple curved fish and the fact that they are curved or misshapen in different areas - this is due to the tumors which grow and push organs and healthy tissue out of the way as they grow.)
- Whatever it is, It appears you brought it home with some of the fish you purchased. - I know this is hindsight but Myco is one of the strongest examples of why people should use quarantine tanks and keep fish in them for 4-6 weeks prior to releasing them into their main tanks.
- Myco can often be very slow growing and very slow to present symptoms.
*IMPORTANT NOTE* Since there is such a strong possibility that this is MYCO and even if not at the very least it is a pretty bad bacterial infection - it is very important that from this point forward you are very careful with your hands and nets and children around: this tank, water from this tank, & the fish. Also you want to bury dead fish not flush them or put them into trash.
- Do not place hands into the tank if you have any scratches or cuts on you that will come into contact with tank water.
- Once finished working in the tank or handling dead fish use strong bleach solution to disinfect your hands, nets, and the sink you washed your hands in.
- Waste Water from water chances should be made to flow outside of the house preferably into some soil or grassy area (not discarded into toilet or sink)
Well I really need to see the pics but if this is MYCO or any other bacterial infection then there are 3 courses you can choose from:
1) Start immediate treatment of antibiotics and B Complex vitamins while sending a fish with a strong representation of the symptoms to a vet that does lab work and can verify pathogen. Choose further actions when results are in.
2) Option #1 but with out the vet and see how things proceed.
3) Euthanize fish (a preferred method is to put them into a container of water which has few drops of clove oil - anesthesia, Then add few drops of any 80 proof alcoholic beverage - They slip off and its widely believed that they do not feel any pain .), Bury them(do not flush or put in trash), Nuke ( A procedure which involves Soaking in strong bleach solution over night) tank and equipment and nets. Start over
Personally I would go with option #1 and if something is found go with #3. Otherwise If I wasn't too attached to the fish I would go straight to option #3.
Again I am really sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope your path through this trouble will be as easy as possible.
Last edited by tanks4thememories; 05-12-2010 at 07:54 PM.“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” - Nikola Tesla
05-13-2010, 01:45 PM #83Member Swordtails
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
I tried to get some pictures of the crooked fish or fish with sunken in stomachs, but most of them have died already.
These are pictures of the only Endler (Endler/Guppy hybrid) that has a crooked spine.
05-13-2010, 01:45 PM #84Member Swordtails
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
This is the Glowlight Danio with its stomach starting to sink in. All the others that had much more extreme cases have already died.
This is the other Glowlight Danio with a dark spot that has recently developed on its side.
I called all the veterinarians in the area until I found one that would do lab work on dead fish, there was only one that does that type of work. The cost would be $475.
05-13-2010, 02:37 PM #85
0Originally Posted by nutsfu
Ok well unfortunately it looks like MYCO anyway so the decision is basically which of the options you wish to choose.“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” - Nikola Tesla
05-27-2010, 10:52 PM #86
One time my molly was very sick. I think it was tuberculosis. Her back was curving and she couldn't swim well. She was literally at death's door so I put her in a different tank to die in. It was the hospital tank and hadn't been cleaned from the last use. Unheated, small, no bubbler. I put her in there for over 2 days but she wouldn't die. In fact, she got better! There was Epsom salts in there so I wondered if Epsom kills TB. Her back straightened out and she became perky. I left her in there a while longer than put her back in the tank. Her baby died after biting her and the orange molly. The orange molly died too. I'm not positive whether or not she had TB but something saved her. She's alive and well. None of the others have died since except for one of my guppies.
She's still alive and perky. Epsom salts could be a possible cure to tuberculosis. Please PM me if any of you have tried Epsom salts and if it worked for TB. I used the dosage of Epsom salts that one person on some website suggested for dropsy.
Last edited by teddscau; 05-27-2010 at 10:56 PM.. .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
05-28-2010, 12:08 AM #87
0Originally Posted by teddscau
There are a few reasons a fish can appear to have a curved spine. TB is but one of those reasons. I have never herd of Epsom salts curing TB. I am however by no means an expert so I would not presume to say I know what is and is not possible. Usually if a fish has the other symptoms associated with TB then we assume that is what it has. Without lab work there really is no way to tell except trial and error. We treat what is suspected and if it improves then we assume that what we treated for is what we had. The pathogen for TB is a bacteria. It can be treated although the success rate is quite low. There are also hobbyist documented cases of fish getting better on their own. I would imagine the fishes own immune system manages to prevail in these cases. If you are mucking around in a tank where a fish has active TB and you have an open cut on your hands or you do not wash your hands and you touch your mouth or other orifice of your body you can contract the human version of this illness. The success rate in treating humans with this illness is 100% once they identify that that is what you have.
From all of the above we can only tell a few things for sure.
1) Its good to thoroughly wash your hands after working in your aquarium
2) If you have open cuts on hands it is not a good idea to reach into an aquarium
3) Many people improperly diagnose TB in the first place thus at least some reported events of miraculous cures are erroneous due to the fact that the fish never had TB to begin with.
3) Many fish farms destroy the whole crop when they confirm diagnosis of TB
4) Real TB is very serious and extremely resistant to treatment.
5) It is transmissible to humans
6) There are cases of fish surviving TB and being placed back into main tank and living out their lives.
7) There are cases of TB disappearing and then returning.
8) I have personally seen no evidence that a fish once having the disease but currently not presenting symptoms has actually infected other fish or humans.
I wish I could tell you more detailed or conclusive information but without Lab results the best even a vet can give is an educated guess based on past experience and research.“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” - Nikola Tesla
05-28-2010, 02:12 AM #88
0Originally Posted by teddscau
"And when your deepest thoughts are broken, keep on dreaming, boy; when you stop dreaming it's time to die"
- Shannon Hoon
29g dismantled and downsized to 10g for college
black tetras, raphael catfish, kuhli loaches and glofish
05-28-2010, 04:39 AM #89
Holy cow! After reading that third link I've decided long gloves are a good investment, and no more using my mouth to start a siphon. Thank you for posting this! I'm really sorry that poor woman didn't didn't have a chance to read something like this before she landed in the hospital. Thank you very much for the cautionary heads-up.Why do people always scream when I'm driving?
12-13-2010, 06:17 PM #90
I had this happen to one of my fish (a goldfish). The initial symptom was a curved back side-to-side, making him fold almost in half constantly (I thought it must have been crushed underneath an ornament or the filter and broken its back until I read up about the disease--aka "broken back disease"-- in a veterinary manual I happened to have lying around). Very sad, the fish became very ill, and since I had another one in the tank that had undoubtedly been exposed, both had to be euthanized. I ended up just throwing out the 10 gallon tank afterwards, because I didn't want to risk any infection to myself. The fish I buried out in the back yard (you never want to flush dead fish because pipes and the wastewater treatment center are not equipped to handle them--especially ones with TB).