thoroughly confused

[ForensicCrested]

Hi everyone.
Just joined recently and I have been reading through alot of material including the ebook, many online sources, a book from the petstore and finally I found this site. Anyway, there are many opinions on cycling and as I understand it a fishless cycle is best for the fish. So, this is what I have so far. A 30g rectangular tank, have the filter, heater, gravel, some decorations, hood and light, thermometer and I think that's everything. The tank and everything is all secondhand from my friends that had cleaned it and put it in storage. Then I cleaned it out when I picked it up recently. Filled the tank and added 3 peacock ferns and I think 3 African ferns, all small. I used aquasafe to condition the water and the lfs suggested using biozyme for a jumpstarter on the bacteria buildup. What the guy told me was that using the recommended dosage I can get fish in a week without problems. I understand that to do a fishless cycle you need to add the ammonia and have it go through it's stages. But is this one of those products that are supposed to help you build up the good bacteria and just get some hardy started fish such as zebra danios? In the ebook under cycling it says that plants and dead plant leaves will help to introduce the nitrogen to get a cycle going including adding some fish flakes. So even without adding ammonia, if the biozyme does add bacteria to my tank, will it survive and be effective enough to add a small school of zebra danios, maybe 7 or 8? I would have thought that the bacteria would die without a supply of ammonia to feed on. But then again this bacteria is delivered with some type of bran so maybe that introduces some nitrogen..not really sure just speculating.

Wow. Sry so much here, just want to make sure I'm doing everything right. Any comments or advice is appreciated. Thank you

[smaug]

Hi,Ive never done a fishless cycle so Im not much help.Im just popping by to let you know your question is being looked at !

[NickFish]

Confusing post, hope I'm answering your question here.

You could cycle the tank both ways at the same time, but it would be pointless as far as I can tell.

If you put 8 danios in there, you are just making more work for yourself because you would have to do water changes every other day.

Why not just add pure ammonia? Less work for yourself and it works much better.

Also, don't listen to the guy that said it would be cycled in a week, he has no way of knowing that. Moniter ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, and you alone will know exactly when your tank is finished cycling.

[nwnittany]

I think the purpose of Bio-zyme is to jump start your cycle by introducing a large number of good bacteria into the tank instead of having to wait for it to grow organically.


But, you still need an ammonia source to 'feed' the bacteria and keep it growing.

You can get the ammonia source from hardy fish, like danios (a fishy cycle) or you can get it from a bottle of ammonia (fishless cycle).

One other thing to keep in mind is that using bio-zyme doesn't guarantee a quick cycle. Some have used it and say it works and others have used it and say it doesn't do squat.

If Bio-zyme is the stuff that comes in the little yellow plastic container and is a brown power, then I used it on my last tank and it my cycle picked up steam about the time I started using it (although there were other variables at that same time, so it's inconclusive, imho)

If you are OK doing a cycle with fish, you can add a bunch of hardy fish immediately (danio are a great choice) and cycle with them. Just stay on top of your water measurements and do water changes when the ammonia or nitrites get too high.

Minimize feeding, too, during the cycle.

[Lady Hobbs]

The point of a fishless cycle is so you can add more fish when starting out with no losses of fish and not the work and worry for you. The amount of ammonia you add each day is far more than fish would put out in a days time so you get a large bio- load that support the addition of several fish right from the beginning instead of stocking very slowly, constantly checking the water, doing water changes, etc. Cycling with ammonia will take a couple weeks and with a low stock of fish, up to 6 weeks. It's all in how you want to do it.

I have fishless cycled and fish cycled. I would add no bacteria suppliements if doing a fishless cycle. The purpose in those products is to hold the toxic levels down. It makes no sense to add ammonia then add another product that alters the amount of ammonia you added. It can be used when doing a fish cycle, however. Some of it works, some of it doesn't.

The tanks that really should be done in the fishless fashion, IMO, are the smaller tanks that get very toxic.

Adding fish flakes is rather an old way of cycling, as well. Makes for some very dirty water and you can have varying levels of ammonia rather than trying to maintain the same level. Shrimp peels in a bag and under a rock is another but again, an undetermined level of ammonia on any given day. Ammonia is available here in the US and not available in other countries so that leaves other ways to get ammonia levels, tho.

Fishless is a great way to cycle, also, if you are adding african cichlids when many should be added at once to hold down aggression.

[Luna]

the lfs suggested using biozyme for a jumpstarter on the bacteria buildup. What the guy told me was that using the recommended dosage I can get fish in a week without problems. I understand that to do a fishless cycle you need to add the ammonia and have it go through it's stages. But is this one of those products that are supposed to help you build up the good bacteria and just get some hardy started fish such as zebra danios?

The only bacterial "starter" on the market that really truly works is Biospira, and that is dependent on how the package is maintained (must stay refrigerated the whole time).

Don't bother with most "starters". If you haven't opened it, just return it to the store. Buy a set of liquid test kits while you are there. You'll need to test ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates.

Your next stop should be Ace Hardware if you have one nearby. Ask for the "Janitorial Ammonia". Add less than a capful to your tank and wait. If you don't have one of these, use a small piece of cocktail shrimp or fish food. (Yes they are messy, but your future fish will thank you later.) Test the water in about 12 hours. You will want the ammonia to be between 3 and 5 ppm. Raise the water temp to about 85°F and wait some more. (This is where you will start to recognize the cycling method, but I'm going to keep writing.) Test the water frequently for changes in ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. When you have 0ppm for the first two and some detectable level of nitrate, your cycle is complete.

Quick question... how did you clean that tank?

The purpose in those products is to hold the toxic levels down. It makes no sense to add ammonia then add another product that alters the amount of ammonia you added.

I really have to disagree. Yes, the end result is the reduction of toxic substances, but the whole purpose of a cycle is to reduce those substances. You add ammonia to mimic the addition of fish, thus keeping the bacterial cultures alive. The products appropriate for a fishless cycle should contain live cultures of the necessary bacteria. If the ammonia is disappearing, that means the bacteria are hard at work consuming it. This is precisely what we want.

Products that simply bind the ammonia and create a non-toxic compound are not going to help you know if you have the first round of bacteria, but they won't really harm the process.

[richberstler]

I lack the patience to read all the other comments, so this may have been covered...

Use an old filter from someone, just let it float in the tank. With plants already adding decaying matter to the tank it might cycle in seconds! j/k but it may go quicker because the bacteria you need will be introduced thru the filter.

I used old water from my 1st tank to cycle my other 2, it went pretty quick (a couple/few weeks)

[Luna]

Old water doesn't contain nearly as much bacteria as you might think. Filter media and gravel are better choices. Good suggestion.

Also, your cycle (if on the 20-10-20 tanks in your sig) didn't really go much faster than it would have normally. Without any mature media or starter cultures, my 10 gallon cycled in less than 3 weeks.

[richberstler]

Old water doesn't contain nearly as much bacteria as you might think. Filter media and gravel are better choices.

Also, your cycle (if on the 20-10-20 tanks in your sig) didn't really go much faster than it would have normally. Without any mature media, my 10 gallon cycled in less than 3 weeks.

Yeah, forgot to mention the 10 gal was the quick one. I also "washed" my old filter media in both.

[ForensicCrested]

Sorry it took so long to get back,

Smaug-thanks for looking lol. I ended up getting some fish, so I am fish cycling with zebra danios.

NickFish-thanks for replying..I did end up getting 7 zebra danios..although I did try to find the right ammonia, although I didnt go to ACE hardware, I tried 3 different places and they all had surfactants.

nwnittany-yea i guess the Biozyme couldnt hurt now that I already have it..so I will follow the instructions like it says and now that I have fish I will add it once a week until it is gone. We'll see what happens.

Lady Hobbs-I would also think that a fishless cycle is better in a smaller size tank where water quality could change drastically more quickly than in a larger tank. So I guess I'm avoiding the fish flake/shrimp peel thing lol.

Luna-I did try to find the right ammonia but that was without going to ACE hardware. I guess I was too impatient anyway. And I did open the Biozyme already because the guy at the fish store told me to put it in everyday for a week before I got fish. I did get test kits that will test for the ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates among other things.

richberstler-haha thanks, I wish it was that quick..I cant wait to get this one cycled because I would definitely try a fishless cycle next time and would use some of the old media in my first tank.

thanks for everyone's replies..oh ps..i went to petco today and picked up a java moss ball because I couldnt find java moss anywhere else. Its pretty cool its tied up with a weight hanging on it and it floats there in the tank.