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Results 1 to 10 of 48
  1. #1

    Join Date
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    Merry Christmas - Abbeys_Mom Great advice thanks - nraposa Thanks for helping me with my cichlids - Drumachine09 Always good answers - Lady Hobbs You dont have enough gifts. - Drumachine09 
    Thanks for your help again. - Lady Hobbs goodbye reptileguy....hello Fishguy - Lady Hobbs For always giving me great answere's on my PM's. Thanks for all the help! - cocoa_pleco Thanks For Your Help & Knowledge! :) - MeganL3985 For weakening me against axolotls!!!!!!! - Nick_Pavlovski 
    I am baking today and figured I'd share...Thanks for Always Helping when it's needed! - **AquaQueen** For recommending Fluvals and Stealths - Lady Hobbs Merry Christmas :) - MeganL3985 Merry Christmas! - RichBowyer Thanks for the hikari help - Billythefish 
    No Message - LORENZO Merry Christmas - Northernguy merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO Merry X-Mas!! - The Red Severum 

    Default Hybrids are not inherently wrong


    0 Not allowed!
    There is a lot of debate and misunderstanding about hybridization in fish. Many feel it is wrong for a number of reasons including ‘playing God’, ‘messing with nature’, or unknown consequences.

    Hybridization is generally defined as a cross between two different species. This usually creates offspring of a variety not found in nature. Many people feel this is an atrocity. They feel it is playing God or messing with nature. But in fact hybridization is a very common act in nature, even being the cause of speciation of many species. Some species take part in it so often it is hard to distinguish them as a unique species. To properly understand hybridization and its consequences, people need to understand exactly what a species is, what hybridization is, its role in nature, and the process of speciation.

    The most common definition of a species is ‘a group of organisms that can interbreed and produce fertile offspring’. Many people will further specify that definition by adding ‘in nature’. In his textbook Evolution, Futuyma defines a species as ‘the members of a group of populations that interbreed or potentially interbreed with one another under natural conditions’ (552). This definition follows the biological species concept, that a species must be reproductively isolated or that it cannot interbreed with other species to be classified as a separate species (Lawrey). Many species are extremely challenging to observe and monitor in the wild, so it is hard to determine which individuals are interbreeding so we cannot be sure what all does and does not take place in the wild. In addition, there are many cases of natural hybridization between two or more long-standing species.

    Hybridization is so common that there is currently a debate as to whether the red wolf (Canis rufus) is even a unique species or a hybrid between the gray wolf (C. lupus) and the coyote (C. latrans) (Lawrey). Genetic analysis has revealed that there is substantial cross-breeding between these two or three species. Recently a hybrid between a polar bear (Ursus maritimus) and a grizzly or brown bear (U. arctos) was shot and killed in Canada (Associated Press, “Wild”). Based on the biological species concept this would make the two species of bears actually only one since they can successfully reproduce in the wild. Phylogenetic evidence supports that polar bears are no more than a subspecies of grizzly bear. Many people are now familiar with ligers, the resulting offspring between a male lion (Panthera leo) and a female tiger (P. tigris). The offspring are fertile. Another example is that of macaw parrots. When the blue-and-gold macaw (Ara ararauna) is crossed with the green-winged macaw (A. chloroptera) the result is the harlequin macaw, a relatively common captive pet (see Figure A). Many species of the Swordtail genus Xiphophorus spp. of fish can interbreed with one another (Lawrey). In addition, many species were formed via hybridization. Many plant groups contain many hybrids and potentially hybridizing species (Lawrey). This has obvious evolutionary value to the organisms with that combination.

    The classic situation of speciation involves a single species that for some reason begins to become two species. There are many ways this can occur. In some cases a new trait appears within a population that can allow for sexual selection, such as some males developing a unique coloration. In other cases a physical barrier can separate populations of the species, such as a shallow sea or a mountain range. When this happens the subsequent two populations are then genetically isolated. This means that any change in the genome in a population due to mutation, genetic drift, etc. becomes unique to that population. As more and more genetic differences build up the two populations become more divergent, and less like the original species or each other. Over time this can generate entirely new species.

    An example of this type of speciation is the speciation of two mosquito species in London. One, Culex pipiens, is a common urban mosquito species found in London. However, in the London Underground there is a genetically distinct and reproductively isolated species, C. molestus (Lawrey). In this situation the construction of the London Underground created a new, not yet exploited niche for a mosquito. A population was formed by individuals of C. pipiens that populated the London Underground. Over time this newly isolated population developed genetic changes that made it unique from the parent species. Eventually this new population became unique enough from the parent species that it became genetically distinct and reproductively isolated and therefore a new species.

    In many cases the isolating barriers are later removed. If the populations have not fully speciated and are not reproductively isolated, then they remain as populations of one species, even if they are morphologically very different. Because they can appear to be so different morphologically they can be classified as different species. As more information is gathered scientists discover that many species are actually hybrids or commonly hybridize with each other.

    Hybridization is actually one method of speciation. Research done with sunflowers showed how the hybridization of two closely related species could yield super-combinations that were better adapted and therefore more fit (Indiana). This can result in diploid species (the genomes of the two species are combined into one, the size of the two genomes put together). This is actually a natural process, common in plants but rare (although not non-existent) in animals. (Futuyma)

    Hybridization is a natural process. It is a natural form of speciation and species preservation. Hybridizing in captivity is not harmful when certain things are avoided. It is possible to produce hybrids that have physical deformities such as mouths that are unable to close, or bodies so misshapen that even swimming is a challenge. These crosses should be avoided, already produced broods entirely culled, and the cross not made again. But just because something is a hybrid does not make it inherently wrong. If natural limitations are bypassed then the person is jumping hurdles that nature has set in place that have limited that cross. In these cases the two species are separate enough that hybridization should be avoided. Cases like this would be situations where breeding was done artificially (artificial insemination) and forced the cross even though the fish followed nature’s limitations.

    If two species cross under their own will and produce healthy, fertile offspring, then by the biological species concept’s definition of a species they are actually the same species. They may look different or be currently classified as separate species, but those may be false classifications. This is such as tricky subject in science that many scientists do not even believe in the idea of a species. There are no definitive barriers in most cases so we as humans cannot make up barriers and definitions just so that things are easier for us to understand and we cannot pigeonhole them just to suit our expectations of simplicity. Evolution is not done. Things are constantly changing and species are still in the process of evolution, still changing. Some are definitely too different to hybridize. Others are barely isolated enough to be separate populations and subspecies, but since they look different (something that can change VERY quickly under natural selection) we decided to classify them as separate species. So if hybrids are healthy and fertile then the two populations are not actually different species, but different subspecies.

    What about artificial selection? It has produced some extremely deformed breeds. Goldfish are an excellent example. They have been domesticated long enough to produce major alterations from the natural form. Some of the breeds and individuals are so deformed that they cannot or can barely swim, breathe, have proper digestive flow, see, or maintain buoyancy. Yet because these are not hybrids it is okay? This is okay but a perfectly healthy animal that simply has a different coloration but happens to be a hybrid is wrong?

    We really need to step back and look at what the actual consequences of what we do are. If there is no actual harm then it is not bad. If we produce fish that have special needs, deformities, or limitations (whether they are hybrids or not) then we have done something wrong.

    Works cited and consulted:

    Alaska Department of Fish and Game, “Alaska’s Bears” 2008 retrieved April 30, 2008 http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index...dfg=bears.main

    Alcock, J., Animal Behavior (8th ed.) Massachusetts, Sinauer, (2005)

    -Associated Press, “Wild find: Half grizzly, half polar bear” 2008 retrieved April 30, 2008 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12738644/GT1/8199/

    -Futuyma, D. J., Evolution Massachusetts, Sinauer, (2005)

    -Indiana University. “Cross-species Mating May Be Evolutionarily Important And Lead To Rapid Change, Say Indiana University Researchers” ScienceDaily (August 8, 2003) retrieved April 3, 2008 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0808081854.htm

    -Lawrey, J. D., GMU BIOL 471 Evolution Lecture notes/slides (Spring 2008)

    Pages, M., et al. “Combined analysis of fourteen nuclear genes refines the Ursidae phylogeny” Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution vol.47 (2008): 73-83

    Wauer, L., “Parrots we’ve seen during our travels” retrieved April 30, 2008
    http://www.billybear4kids.com/animal...s/toes28c.html
    Aquarist since 1995
    Biologist
    Owner: Aquarium Maintenance Company
    Brian's Aquarium Care: Articles about many aspects of aquarium care.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    Northern Virginia
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    Awards Showcase

    Merry Christmas - Abbeys_Mom Great advice thanks - nraposa Thanks for helping me with my cichlids - Drumachine09 Always good answers - Lady Hobbs You dont have enough gifts. - Drumachine09 
    Thanks for your help again. - Lady Hobbs goodbye reptileguy....hello Fishguy - Lady Hobbs For always giving me great answere's on my PM's. Thanks for all the help! - cocoa_pleco Thanks For Your Help & Knowledge! :) - MeganL3985 For weakening me against axolotls!!!!!!! - Nick_Pavlovski 
    I am baking today and figured I'd share...Thanks for Always Helping when it's needed! - **AquaQueen** For recommending Fluvals and Stealths - Lady Hobbs Merry Christmas :) - MeganL3985 Merry Christmas! - RichBowyer Thanks for the hikari help - Billythefish 
    No Message - LORENZO Merry Christmas - Northernguy merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO Merry X-Mas!! - The Red Severum 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    I hope this is not too complicated. A lot of the information came from a paper I wrote about the idea and definitions of a species that I wrote last year. It was a 300 level English class based on Science (the book for the class was entitled "Darwin".

    If anything seems unclear or irrelevant please ask.

    Anyone who disagrees, feel free to explain why and we can all discuss it.
    Aquarist since 1995
    Biologist
    Owner: Aquarium Maintenance Company
    Brian's Aquarium Care: Articles about many aspects of aquarium care.

  3. #3

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    I think there's a whole lot of difference between two species that breed naturally than oddities that come from hormone injecting. But with many of these hybrids coming from Asia and their production kept so secret, how do we really know how they populate.

    Makes you wonder how these trade secrets can be kept so secret for so long. With suspicions about the parents, you'd think fish farms here would try to reproduce some of these high priced fish so they need not be imported.

  4. #4

    Join Date
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    Merry Christmas - Abbeys_Mom Great advice thanks - nraposa Thanks for helping me with my cichlids - Drumachine09 Always good answers - Lady Hobbs You dont have enough gifts. - Drumachine09 
    Thanks for your help again. - Lady Hobbs goodbye reptileguy....hello Fishguy - Lady Hobbs For always giving me great answere's on my PM's. Thanks for all the help! - cocoa_pleco Thanks For Your Help & Knowledge! :) - MeganL3985 For weakening me against axolotls!!!!!!! - Nick_Pavlovski 
    I am baking today and figured I'd share...Thanks for Always Helping when it's needed! - **AquaQueen** For recommending Fluvals and Stealths - Lady Hobbs Merry Christmas :) - MeganL3985 Merry Christmas! - RichBowyer Thanks for the hikari help - Billythefish 
    No Message - LORENZO Merry Christmas - Northernguy merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO Merry X-Mas!! - The Red Severum 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    That is exactly what I am talking about with it being wrong for us to take certain steps. By injecting hormones or literally artificially inseminating them we are bypassing the natural limitations nature has established. But by putting two together and they decide to reproduce, it is not an issue.

    This is mainly in reference to crosses like peacocks or mbuna crosses. Those 'species' are so young it is hard to show that they are established species anyways, but so many think it is so wrong when someone lets their hybrid peacocks breed.
    Aquarist since 1995
    Biologist
    Owner: Aquarium Maintenance Company
    Brian's Aquarium Care: Articles about many aspects of aquarium care.

  5. #5

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Cichlids are the kings of natural hybrids - just look at the vast amount of species that have developed in Lake Tanganyika alone to ensure survival. Of course this is all natural selection.. I am still not a fan of letting species in the tank crossbreed to see what comes out of it as sometimes the fish are from different parts of a vast area of water and would never cross paths in nature either and definately against the hormonal and inseminated 'forced' varieties....
    My own Fish Blog
    Small Fish for Small Tanks

    'The measure of kindness is that you are kind without measure'

  6. #6

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    This should become an article. Very informative.

    Oe thing I dont really like to see is balloon shaped malformites that people think are so cute. i dont think thats right, sorry.
    CORRECTED video of my fish. This link works. For sure. Really.

    Tanks:
    20g long: 4 panda cories, 1 honey gourami, 1 apistogramma borellii, 1 male cacatuoides
    20g High: 3 bolivian rams, 12 rasboras
    8g hex: empty
    5g: empty

  7. #7

    Join Date
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    edmonton, alberta, canada
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    god im hungry - cocoa_pleco You make me laugh! - Drumachine09 And lots of pizza too! lol - Chrona wish i had some of this to drink right now - cocoa_pleco DAAAAAM, this drink looks good - cocoa_pleco 
    There. Thats better. - Drumachine09 maybe one day we can enjoy one of these - sergo Congrats you recived a RAK gift enjoy! - DemonShark RAK - DemonShark RAK - DemonShark 
    Cheers! - Nick_Pavlovski Since Wendy's is only open 4 hours! - aliz340 For Your Help And Friendship - MeganL3985 Hope you a good time in Germany - alizee340 Good to have you back around the forum! - Nick_Pavlovski 
    Thanks....you could use some Luck with your fish too! - **AquaQueen** I'm baking today and figured I'd share...Thanks for helping whne it's needed! - **AquaQueen** Back at you, CP! - Dave66 You send me fruit I send you pizza!! LOL!! - 2manyfish a fish for the new 5.5g salt! lol - cocoa_pleco 
    Graves Disease - Lymphedema - Men's Health - Pro Choice - Prostate Cancer - Scleroderma - Thyroid Disease - Trisomy 18 - cocoa_pleco Anti-Tobacco - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - cocoa_pleco Adoptee - Bone Cancer - Child Exploitation and Abuse - Hope and Support - Peace - Retinoblastoma - Right to Life - Student Sexual Assault - cocoa_pleco Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - cocoa_pleco World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - cocoa_pleco 
    Cesarean Sections - Headaches - Hospice Care - Multiple Myeloma - cocoa_pleco Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - cocoa_pleco Childhood Cancer - cocoa_pleco Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - cocoa_pleco 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Incredulous_Ed
    One thing I dont really like to see is balloon shaped malformites that people think are so cute. i dont think thats right, sorry.
    i agree, i cant help but feel bad for balloon mollies, they look like they have trouble just swimming and keeping upright

  8. Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by cocoa_pleco
    i agree, i cant help but feel bad for balloon mollies, they look like they have trouble just swimming and keeping upright
    For quite some time I used to think that they are deformed fish that the LFS was not able to swim...was shocked to know that those are actually sold...poor creatures.

  9. #9

    Join Date
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    Merry Christmas - Abbeys_Mom Great advice thanks - nraposa Thanks for helping me with my cichlids - Drumachine09 Always good answers - Lady Hobbs You dont have enough gifts. - Drumachine09 
    Thanks for your help again. - Lady Hobbs goodbye reptileguy....hello Fishguy - Lady Hobbs For always giving me great answere's on my PM's. Thanks for all the help! - cocoa_pleco Thanks For Your Help & Knowledge! :) - MeganL3985 For weakening me against axolotls!!!!!!! - Nick_Pavlovski 
    I am baking today and figured I'd share...Thanks for Always Helping when it's needed! - **AquaQueen** For recommending Fluvals and Stealths - Lady Hobbs Merry Christmas :) - MeganL3985 Merry Christmas! - RichBowyer Thanks for the hikari help - Billythefish 
    No Message - LORENZO Merry Christmas - Northernguy merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO Merry X-Mas!! - The Red Severum 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Yes, when the body is compressed like that it causes problems. That is exactly how they developed the round-bodied goldfish. In goldfish it is obvious that the compressed body shape affects the digestive flow, swim bladder, and swimming. I would be surprised if it did not do the same with other fish with compressed bodies. Long fins are one thing, not my preference, but a completely deformed body is definitely a problem.
    Aquarist since 1995
    Biologist
    Owner: Aquarium Maintenance Company
    Brian's Aquarium Care: Articles about many aspects of aquarium care.

  10. #10

    Join Date
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    god im hungry - cocoa_pleco You make me laugh! - Drumachine09 And lots of pizza too! lol - Chrona wish i had some of this to drink right now - cocoa_pleco DAAAAAM, this drink looks good - cocoa_pleco 
    There. Thats better. - Drumachine09 maybe one day we can enjoy one of these - sergo Congrats you recived a RAK gift enjoy! - DemonShark RAK - DemonShark RAK - DemonShark 
    Cheers! - Nick_Pavlovski Since Wendy's is only open 4 hours! - aliz340 For Your Help And Friendship - MeganL3985 Hope you a good time in Germany - alizee340 Good to have you back around the forum! - Nick_Pavlovski 
    Thanks....you could use some Luck with your fish too! - **AquaQueen** I'm baking today and figured I'd share...Thanks for helping whne it's needed! - **AquaQueen** Back at you, CP! - Dave66 You send me fruit I send you pizza!! LOL!! - 2manyfish a fish for the new 5.5g salt! lol - cocoa_pleco 
    Graves Disease - Lymphedema - Men's Health - Pro Choice - Prostate Cancer - Scleroderma - Thyroid Disease - Trisomy 18 - cocoa_pleco Anti-Tobacco - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - cocoa_pleco Adoptee - Bone Cancer - Child Exploitation and Abuse - Hope and Support - Peace - Retinoblastoma - Right to Life - Student Sexual Assault - cocoa_pleco Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - cocoa_pleco World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - cocoa_pleco 
    Cesarean Sections - Headaches - Hospice Care - Multiple Myeloma - cocoa_pleco Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - cocoa_pleco Childhood Cancer - cocoa_pleco Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - cocoa_pleco 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    round goldfish are just as bad, a few months ago at wal-mart i found a small lionhead goldfish that was perfectly round and exactly like a golfball, and he would have to swim and try like crazy to get midlevel in the tank, but he would just drift up after and have trouble again

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