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  1. #1

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    Congrats on your first cycled tank! - Silbar   For good luck with the fishkeeping hobby. - Slaphppy7   

    Default Too many choices


    0 Not allowed!
    Finally. My tank is cycled, the fish are happy. Then, a little over a82 week ago, my polit developed what looked like a small scrape on the top of his head. I notated it in my aquarium log, and watched it. No others showed signs of a fight or other problems. About four days later, the daily inspection showed an enlargement of the lesion on the polit and a couple others had one or two tiny white circles. I really had to look. Once I was sure there was a problem, ich, I started increasing the water temperature and bought Kordon ich attack. There are two bubblers in my tank as well as a healthy water return rate. After the first dose of Kordon (all natural), the fish seemed agitated and spending more time at the top. They settled a bit by this morning although they look like they are breathing harder than usual. I put the second dose in, and by 6 hours later, they were agitated again.

    The water is at 82 now. Usually I keep it between 79.8 and 80.5. I do water changes eod, roughly 20-25%. Before I go to salt, I've got a couple questions.
    1) There seem to be excess tiny bubbles in the tank. Is this an oversaturation of oxygen, and regardless, are they dangerous.
    2) There seems to be a direct cause and effect problem with the Kordon. Is there something better out there? Kordon ich attack calls for daily doses for up to five weeks. Ich won't matter if they all die. By the same token, if untreated they will die.
    3) I removed the carbon packs from my filter per kordon instructions. Can the fluval ammonia neutralizing packets be used with the ich products?

    Thanks. My fish tank is cursed with cichlid revenge.

    Marc4

  2. #2

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    4 Not allowed!
    When using meds you should not have to raise your temp. Higher temps reduce O2 levels in the tank, meds reduce O2 in the tank.

    Next Kordon isn't always a good match for all fish, if you have any catfish some Kordon products can cause issues. I don't know if your particular product will, but if you have anything known to be sensitive or any catfish you may want to look into it a bit.

    PLEASE do not use salt for ich. It's just an irritant and in my opinion an outdated method as there are much more reliable and efficient methods that are much easier on your fish. Kordon products when used per directions have worked suitably well for me in the past. Stick with it and lower the temps or do a large water change (50% or more) and another the next day throughly vacuuming the substrate and then start a different med if you're that concerned about the fish behavior... After all you do know your fish and their behaviors better than we do :)

    Also just FYI I swear by Paraguard by Seachem. I'd used it a couple times in the past and in the past couple years and moved entirely to Paraguard for ich. In QT all my fish get 14 day preventative with it followed by any other treatments. It is safe with shrimp, snails, and extremely sensitive fish including Gnathonemus Petersii (elephant nose), all catfish I've ever kept and plants. Dosed daily and do water changes and everything however you want just dose afterwards :)
    Last edited by sfsamm; 08-09-2018 at 12:00 AM.

  3. #3

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    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by marc4 View Post
    Can the fluval ammonia neutralizing packets be used with the ich products?
    Are you talking about zeolite? If your tank and filter are cycled and the biofilter is of sufficient size then you shouldn't be using an ammonia neutralizer other than a water conditioner. Add additional biomedia if you need to. The biofilter needs ammonia (ammonium) to stay healthy so I'm not sure why you're using anything other than Prime? I've always found the use of both a bit counter productive.

    And I agree that sfsamm on the use of salt, don't use it if you are using another product to treat ich. It's my belief that you should use one product or method of treatment at a time so you can figure out what's working and what's not.

  4. #4

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    3 Not allowed!
    Excessive breathing is due to low oxygen level. The fact that they are agitated in the beginning of medication and calm down sometime after adding medication points to this. If the medication was directly affecting them then they would consistently go to the surface. Keep the lights off above the tank since that will keep the temperature lower as well.

    The primary ingredient in Kordon ich attack is naphthoquinone. It's the primary ingredient for Vitamin K. It's been used against malaria. Form what I gather, it prevents the ich from sticking to the fish, so if the ich can't stick to the host, it dies over a period of time, hence the recommended treatment period of 5 weeks.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...N_ESTRUCTURADA
    http://aac.asm.org/content/44/1/14.full

  5. #5

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    0 Not allowed!
    PLEASE do not use salt for ich. It's just an irritant and in my opinion an outdated method as there are much more reliable and efficient methods that are much easier on your fish.
    ??? Salt is an irritant? I never knew this, I thought it was safe for many fish (except catfish and some loaches due to their lack of scales). If it was a tank of livebearers, would you use salt for ich? Would you add salt to a tank of livebearers to help with fin&tail rot? A tonic dose to reduce nitrite poisoning?

    I'm just asking because it's the first time I've heard of this. I always liked to use salt instead of other meds if I can. I also combine salt with other meds if it's ok to do so. Like paraguard and salt for example.
    GiVe Me sHrEd TiLL i'M dEaD
    -Kat

  6. #6

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    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    All helpful answers, thanks. The salt is something I see both pros and cons for depending on the writer or youtube presentation. Not having used it before, it was hard to decide which way to go.

    The two most sensitive fish I have is one cuckoo and a congo black calvus (still small at around 1 1/2".

    I do use prime and have for quite a while. I started my aquarium last Nov. with the thought of stocking it with small, fresh water fish. While the tank was running (without fish), I found out that there weren't many fish that would do well with the water here. The pH is 8.2, and that is with the landlord's water softener. While I was researching fish, I started a no fish cycling. I'd use pebbles as a substrate, big mistake. The night before the fish were delivered, I did a large water change to get the nitrate level down. For whatever reason, when I retested the water in the morning, the cycle was blown. I couldn't stop the arrival of my fish because they had been shipped overnight. What followed was several problems with the cycle. It would be fine and then crap out on me.

    Over the next months, there were all sorts of problems, changes in filters, early over feeding and food that sunk under the substrate that was not visible, but was shooting the ammonia up. Early this year, a mucoid producing bacteria
    took over the entire tank. Everything was covered with a brown slime which was not algae. If I changed filter media or scrubbed the rocks, the slime would take over in a matter of hours. In the end, I wound up having to move the fish to a temporary tank (took forever, didn't know fish had wings), pull everything out of the tank and replaced the filter hoses, bubblers, substrate, filter media etc. The tank would not cycle, and I started adding the prime rather than general water conditioners. I also changed from flakes to pelleted food. Thus the paranoia concerning ammonia detoxifiers. The ammonia removers are in the top basket, and water hits it only after it has gone through the ceramic rings I use for BB. My tank is finally cycled, and has been for about a month.

    I have no doubt that this ich outbreak is secondary to the enormous amount of stress they have gone through in the past six months. Other than my demasoni bullying my yellow top mbuna, they all live pretty peacefully. Lots of caves/tunnels with varying sizes of entrances. Normal algae that many of my fish like to graze on during the day, and my cuckoo at night.

    The temperature, if what I read and see is correct, seems to decrease the immune system's effectiveness, while the higher end of the normal speeds metabolism, and also speeds up the life cycle of parasites, making them easier to get rid of. As to the validity of that, again, dependent on who and what.
    The norm for the guys I have is 78-82. I put a third bubbler in last night. The higher temp (right now at 83.5) is a temporary thing.

    In general, how soon should I expect a change in the size of lesions? Only one fish has an obvious lesion. The others have very small areas that are not obvious unless they are next to the acrylic sides of the tank. The polit has the visible lesion. I assume they start to fall off as they die?

    All the information was helpful. My guys keep me going, and their safety, health and stress levels are important. Sometimes natural products can be slower or less effective than chemicals. I wanted an alternative if Kordon wasn't effective, which sfsamm provided.

    Marc4

  7. #7

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    1 Not allowed!
    never had problem using salt at 3ppt (1 tablespoon per gallon), paraguard, and temps in the low 80s for 3 weeks on a scaleless south american lungfish, senagal bichir, silver dollars or common pleco, all of which were called sensitive species.

  8. #8

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    0 Not allowed!
    Thank you. I'd really love to know the cons of salt though. The only time I personally wouldn't use it is in a planted tank with plant species that can't tolerate it or with a swollen bloated fish. But in the last circumstance, I'd add sodium magnesium (Epsom Salts) which doesn't contain sodium chloride. I've even dosed a heavily planted tank with no adverse reactions.
    GiVe Me sHrEd TiLL i'M dEaD
    -Kat

  9. #9

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    1 Not allowed!
    most of the time no con for a short period of time (weeks)

  10. #10

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    0 Not allowed!
    The ich has gotten out of control. There was no improvement in the lesions with Kordon ich-attack after three weeks. I went back and looked for something else that would be safe, especially for my petricat. I've been using Paraguard by Seecham. At the one week mark, I see no improvement and the ich has actually spread. I've lost one fish. My congo black calvus. The water is fine. No ammonia or nitrites, and the nitrate level is below 20. The temperature has been at 80 consistently since I started the Paraguard.

    The lesions are getting worse. They have increased in number and lesions that were there already look larger. No open sores, just flat white lesions with no apparent symmetry. Is there another medication that is better and safe for my petricat? If I do nothing, my fish are all going to die. Medications seem problematic at best and lethal at worst. Rock and a hard place.

    By the way, moving the demasoni solved the aggression problem until the last couple of days. I put him back after about five days because the entire hierarchy had changed. Fish that had not been aggressive began to chase some of the others. It is a lot easier to deal with aggression in mammals. Intervening actions are simpler.

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