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  1. #41

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    2 Not allowed!
    Oops, just noticed that there is a typo in my previous post but I'm past the edit window. It should be read as:

    "...always get a half-dozen folks claiming that water changes aren't necessary..."

  2. #42

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    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by discusluv View Post
    ...I would see the mucus layer of my discus shedding thickly into the water column while giving a water change. There fins would clamp, they would huddle in corner, and the mucus would be coming off bodies in folds. Some fish are extremely sensitive to the micro-bubbles.
    My corals used to behave in a similar fashion when I first started scrubbing my reef tank. They have since gotten used to it and no longer slime up, but yes that is definitely something folks should be aware of.

  3. #43

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    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by waylon101 View Post
    I love this debate lol. For me personally, I watched a documentary that took place in the 90s and it showed asian discus breeders doing extreme water changes on their discus. This led me to start doing it with the small Discus Hans discus I was receiving at my work and this kept fungus off of them and allowed us to keep them longer without them being declared "stunted". I started visibly seeing brighter and more beautiful coloration in the discus. You can see the bright coloration of the Colbalts shown in my signature picture below. That picture was taken soon after a water change that went so low, the discus were actually laying on their sides. I never saw any sort of extreme rise in ammonia or bacterial blooms. I now continue to follow this practice in my own tanks but with some back ups to be safe. I have now started using a Little Fishies media reactor filled with matrix ceramics by Seachem. Although I do not feel it necessary, I will also occasionally use an inner cap full of Seachem's Remediation. Here is a sample of how low I drain my 25 gallon. Nitrates never reach over 5 and ammonia does not register using the API Ammonia Test Kit. I have had much debate with my co-workers and other hobbyists about this. All I can say is, for me, the proof is in the pudding. Large water changes = better coloration, lower nitrates, and clearer water.
    Attachment 55814
    Attachment 55815
    I guess all their fish will die do to such a large water change, lol



    Lucky Tropical Fish Farm has been keeping and breeding Discus and Tropical Fish for over ten years.
    http://www.luckytropical.com.my
    Last edited by Rocksor; 07-06-2018 at 08:45 PM.

  4. #44

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    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksor View Post
    I guess all their fish will die do to such a large water change, lol





    http://www.luckytropical.com.my

    Lol! Yep. My discus know the drill- lay flat kids!

  5. #45

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    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by discusluv View Post
    As far as eliminating micro-bubbles, stuff the hard plastic end with some filter floss, sponge material, etc...
    This slows down flow, traps bubbles in wand, and releases them as large bubbles through water that rise to surface and disperse in air.

    I started using this method because, before doing it this way, I would see the mucus layer of my discus shedding thickly into the water column while giving a water change. There fins would clamp, they would huddle in corner, and the mucus would be coming off bodies in folds. Some fish are extremely sensitive to the micro-bubbles.
    It's those microbubbles that I'm aiming to off-gas. I don't see any bubbles on the glass or anywhere after I change water with aged water and not many with water straight from the tap and aerated with the python. Thanks for the tip with the floss, I'll try it :)

    Quote Originally Posted by discusluv
    Yeah, I was just in this conversation this week.

    Here:

    https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-nitrates.html
    My
    I like to provide the best possible conditions and parameters for my fish. I trust the studies done showing the toxicity of high nitrates. And I feel that should be the question of concern. Those that show pics of their tanks and fish to claim no effects on their fish living in high nitrates is ridiculous to me.

    So is high nitrate toxic to fish?
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/79-is-nitrate-toxic-a-study-of-nitrate-toxicity.html
    This test identified that nitrates at 200ppm can kill relatively quickly. Within one week of being exposed to nitrates at this level (three weeks into the test) the fish became blind and they began dieing seven weeks into the experiment. Autopsies revealed elevated nitrate concentrations resulted in the following physiological impacts:

    1)Affects antibody production
    2)Increased number of immature red blood cells
    3)Lowered level of mature red blood cells (anemia)
    4)Higher count of monocyte (a specific white blood cell)
    5)Higher count of neutrophil (a specific white blood cell that is especially destructive to microorganisms)
    6)Higher count of TLC - Thrombocyte-like cell (a blood cell of nonmammalian vertebrates that promotes blood clotting)
    7)Higher levels of creatine (A nitrogenous organic acid found in muscle tissue that supplies energy for muscle contraction)
    8)Higher calcium values in the blood
    9)Lower Chloride values in the blood

    Autopsy revealed damage to the spleen, liver, and kidneys

    Other conclusions reached:
    1)Nitrate damages the gills and kidneys affecting osmoregulatory ability
    2)The observed changes are the result of a pathological response and not of a generalized stress response.

    So what does the abnormal blood chemistry indicate? In short, it means the fish are suffering from infection, severe physical stress, and tissue damage. Their blood is incapable of distributing sufficient oxygen, the immune system is in overdrive and has become deficient, and the kidneys are failing.
    Ok but that's a really high amount of nitrate. How much is too much nitrate? This is a big debate and my post would be too long, so in short, I personally try to do what I think is best for my fish. The average nitrate level in their natural habitat is very low with water being continuously replenished. I've read enough examples where high nitrate resulted in stunted fish and depleted spawns while learning about breeding fish that I wouldn't want to subject my fish to that for anything. I'll leave it at that to not stir anything up (hopefully!)
    GiVe Me sHrEd TiLL i'M dEaD
    -Kat

  6. #46

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    1 Not allowed!
    Did you see the graph in this study?

    http://www.mfe.govt.nz/sites/default...species%20.pdf

    These are the nitrate levels in environment that are considered as "pristine" and those found to be "significantly degraded" and detrimental to most aquatic life.

    Look at table 5.1 on page 16 titled "Guideline derivations for Nitrate-N."

    We are speaking of Nitrate (MG NO3-N/L which converts to commensurate value of 1ppm) between:
    1.0-1.5 Pristine environments
    2.4- 3.5 Environment has a range of human interaction w/ little harmful effects to aquatic-life.
    3.8-5.6 Environments with naturally occurring seasonal disturbances.
    6.9-9.8 Measurably degraded seasonally elevated levels of nitrates 1-3 mo. of year.
    20-30 Environments that are significantly degraded. Probable chronic effects on multiple species.

    20-30 ppm Nitrates is the high measure with "chronic effects on multiple aquatic species".

    This puts the whole debate in context.

  7. #47

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    1 Not allowed!
    Here is another study:

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5eb...8a96629ec4.pdf

    In the abstract it asserts that: "Nitrate toxicity in aquatic fish increases with increased nitrate concentrations and exposure times." Furthermore, the abstract claims that "A nitrate concentration of 10 mg NO3-N/l (USA federal maximum level for drinking water) can adversely affect, at least during long-term exposures, freshwater invertebrates (E. toletanus, E. echinosetosus,
    heumatopsyche pettiti, Hydropsyche occi-dentalis), fishes (Oncorhynchus mykiss, Oncorhynchus tshawytscha,Salmo clarki), and amphibians (Pseudacris triseriata, Rana pipiens, Rana temporaria,Bufo bufo). Safe levels below this nitrate concentration are recommended to protect sensitive freshwater animals from nitrate pollution.

    These findings are further reiterated in conclusion.


    * I can give more examples from the same such rigorously conducted studies on the connection between high nitrates and long-term exposure on aquatic life. It is also detrimental to the human body, however, the larger the mass, the least likely lower levels adversely affect the organism. In other words, the levels can be higher, but a threshold is reached eventually where the health of organism is affected.

    But, you will get those detractors, regardless of the evidence or how much it is duplicated, who will maintain that the research is wrong.
    Last edited by discusluv; 07-06-2018 at 11:06 PM.

  8. #48

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    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by discusluv View Post
    Did you see the graph in this study?

    http://www.mfe.govt.nz/sites/default...species%20.pdf

    These are the nitrate levels in environment that are considered as "pristine" and those found to be "significantly degraded" and detrimental to most aquatic life.

    Look at table 5.1 on page 16 titled "Guideline derivations for Nitrate-N."

    We are speaking of Nitrate (MG NO3-N/L which converts to commensurate value of 1ppm) between:
    1.0-1.5 Pristine environments
    2.4- 3.5 Environment has a range of human interaction w/ little harmful effects to aquatic-life.
    3.8-5.6 Environments with naturally occurring seasonal disturbances.
    6.9-9.8 Measurably degraded seasonally elevated levels of nitrates 1-3 mo. of year.
    20-30 Environments that are significantly degraded. Probable chronic effects on multiple species.

    20-30 ppm Nitrates is the high measure with "chronic effects on multiple aquatic species".

    This puts the whole debate in context.
    nitrate does not equal nitrate-nitrogen

    nitrate nitrogen = nitrate x 0.266

    nitrate = nitrate nitrogen (NO3-N) x 4.43

    so pristine environments do not contain more than 6.645ppm of nitrate (NO3)

    so drinking water can contain up to 44.3 ppm nitrate (as measured by your API nitrate test)
    Last edited by Rocksor; 07-06-2018 at 11:32 PM.

  9. #49

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    0 Not allowed!
    Hmm, okay-- thanks for clarifying that for me.
    So all these levels in chart would need to be multiplied by 0.266 in order to get a ppm measure?

  10. #50

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    0 Not allowed!
    So what would be the average nitrate level in the natural rivers and streams according to our API tests?

    Say average nitrate level is 7mg/L. Would it actually test 31.1 according to our API test?
    GiVe Me sHrEd TiLL i'M dEaD
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