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Thread: Wave Maker

  1. #11

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    1 Not allowed!
    Gyres are good, I think they would do ok in a taller tank.

  2. #12

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    1 Not allowed!
    I think they will do fine in a taller tank. The most common way to place them is on the sides opposing each other but they don't have to be that way. You may figure out in a taller tank that they work better on the back glass or even vertically in the corners. I do suggest getting two of them though, so it can help with random flow patterns in the tank.

  3. #13

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    0 Not allowed!
    Are you saying I'd probably need 2 gyres? I was thinking of using 2 constant circulation pumps and 2 varying circulation pumps. If I got a gyre I thought I could use it in place of the 2 varying circulation pumps?
    Quote Originally Posted by mch1984 View Post
    I think they will do fine in a taller tank. The most common way to place them is on the sides opposing each other but they don't have to be that way. You may figure out in a taller tank that they work better on the back glass or even vertically in the corners. I do suggest getting two of them though, so it can help with random flow patterns in the tank.

  4. #14

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    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by showmebutterfly View Post
    Are you saying I'd probably need 2 gyres? I was thinking of using 2 constant circulation pumps and 2 varying circulation pumps. If I got a gyre I thought I could use it in place of the 2 varying circulation pumps?
    So you are thinking, use the current Korrila pumps in conjunction with a gyra? I don't see why that wouldn't work. If you drop the current pumps I would suggest having two gyra, just to get the random flow. One will be fine and you could do it with that, In a 65 it would create plenty of flow. I just feel that two would be beneficial.

  5. #15

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    0 Not allowed!
    Yes, I'd like to continue to use the Koralia 600 and 565 that I recently purchased for the 40B. I still have a Koralia 240 and 425 from the 20g, but they will eventually be used again when that tank becomes a QT for corals.
    My corals will be softies and a few LPS, so I don't need a lot of flow. My main concern is filtration and oxygenation. The hubs has totally vetoed a sump, so I will have a protein skimmer and a large HOB filter refugium thrown into the mix of stuff in the tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by mch1984 View Post
    So you are thinking, use the current Korrila pumps in conjunction with a gyra? I don't see why that wouldn't work. If you drop the current pumps I would suggest having two gyra, just to get the random flow. One will be fine and you could do it with that, In a 65 it would create plenty of flow. I just feel that two would be beneficial.

  6. #16

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    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by showmebutterfly View Post
    Yes, I'd like to continue to use the Koralia 600 and 565 that I recently purchased for the 40B. I still have a Koralia 240 and 425 from the 20g, but they will eventually be used again when that tank becomes a QT for corals.
    My corals will be softies and a few LPS, so I don't need a lot of flow. My main concern is filtration and oxygenation. The hubs has totally vetoed a sump, so I will have a protein skimmer and a large HOB filter refugium thrown into the mix of stuff in the tank.
    I think if you put a gyra opposite the other two pumps that would work good. It would help cause some random and turbulent flow patterns. I'm not trying to start an augment between you two. I'm curious has to why he's opposed to one? Maybe there is something us with sumps could say to reassure him of something he is worried about.

  7. #17

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    0 Not allowed!
    I hadn't thought of putting them opposite each other. That's a good idea.
    No worries about starting an argument. He's pretty laid back, but stubborn when he makes up his mind on something. I'm still a little shocked that he gave me the green light to get a 65g tank. He does understand that increased water volume means greater parameter stability, which is why I think he did agree to me expanding from the 40B to a 65g. His opposition to a sump are drilling the tank and the added weight of the sump on top of the increased DT volume. My arguments are that drilling the tank is safer / less chance of leakage than with a HOB overflow, we could reinforce the floor under the tank, we could put a drain in the floor under the tank in case of leaks or we could put the sump in the basement and run plumbing from there. The drain and plumbing will also hinge on convincing him to drill holes in the newly installed living room floor once the house remodel is completed. I'm open to suggestions for convincing him. Especially for why I need another 20 gallons of water when we're increasing the volume by 25 gallons with a larger tank. The hiding the equipment part won't get very far with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by mch1984 View Post
    I think if you put a gyra opposite the other two pumps that would work good. It would help cause some random and turbulent flow patterns. I'm not trying to start an augment between you two. I'm curious has to why he's opposed to one? Maybe there is something us with sumps could say to reassure him of something he is worried about.

  8. #18

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    2 Not allowed!
    This is where I put my foot in my mouth sometimes, basements aren't a thing where I'm from and I'm used to having a concrete base. From everything forum thread I've followed and everything I've read I don't think 85 gallons is a problem at all. As far as a sump flooding, I have two sumps and both can take power outages without any chance of it flooding, I have tons of room for the extra water. Thats part of planning it out, is to allow yourself the extra room for the back siphon. Once you have it going, do power outage test to make sure. If it does look like it's going to run over you can adjust and test again. A lot can be done simply by readjusting your return nozzles to break the siphon quicker. A lot of people will run check valves in their plumbing as well, but I never have. I also agree that the hang on the back stuff, especially the skimmer seems like there is a worst chance of overflowing and causing a mess.

    The biggest argument is that the added water volume will help with the health of the tank. Yes you are adding 25 gallons already but another 20 is even better. Then there is my favorite part of the sump! Its versatile, there are so many things you can do with them. Different pieces of equipment that you can add, different things you can grow in the fuge. Oh and again, the water volume lol. When I do my big tank, it will be somewhere around 350 gallons. The sump I'm starting to design is going to be around 400, bigger than the display. Its all about stability in the water column.

  9. #19

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    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by showmebutterfly View Post
    I hadn't thought of putting them opposite each other. That's a good idea.
    No worries about starting an argument. He's pretty laid back, but stubborn when he makes up his mind on something. I'm still a little shocked that he gave me the green light to get a 65g tank. He does understand that increased water volume means greater parameter stability, which is why I think he did agree to me expanding from the 40B to a 65g. His opposition to a sump are drilling the tank and the added weight of the sump on top of the increased DT volume. My arguments are that drilling the tank is safer / less chance of leakage than with a HOB overflow, we could reinforce the floor under the tank, we could put a drain in the floor under the tank in case of leaks or we could put the sump in the basement and run plumbing from there. The drain and plumbing will also hinge on convincing him to drill holes in the newly installed living room floor once the house remodel is completed. I'm open to suggestions for convincing him. Especially for why I need another 20 gallons of water when we're increasing the volume by 25 gallons with a larger tank. The hiding the equipment part won't get very far with him.
    Not to stray off the topic of wavemakers, but you brought up something that I wanted to expand on regarding HOB overflows.

    I fought against the idea of an overflow and sump for quite a while, and indeed I ran my reef with and Eheim canister for a little while.

    The big dreaded problems with overflow/sump setups is 1) the potential for a back-siphon if the power to the return pump goes out and the sump floods, and 2) losing siphon in an HOB overflow, resulting in the DT flooding as the return pump keeps adding water to the tank but it is not draining. I found - and later verified with others - that back-siphon and flooding issues are 100% prevented by two very simple limiting factors: return nozzle placement and sump baffle height/position. I hope I can explain in a way that is easy to understand without seeing visuals.

    #1 is the tendency for the return line to start siphoning water back out through the return nozzles in the even out of outtage; without power, the return pump stops pushing water up to the tank and water is allowed to reverse and start draining back into the sump. This hazard is completely avoidable by simply raising the return nozzle(s) high enough so that the nozzle opening is right at the water level of the display tank. The nozzle can't siphon the water if it isn't submerged. Positioning the nozzle at water level or slightly above/below will safeguard against a siphon if the power goes out. You may have a tiny bit of siphon when the power first goes out or the pump fails, but as soon as the water level drops enough it will lose contact with the return nozzle and break the siphon.

    Hard to see here in this grainy screen shot, but this shows how deep my return nozzle is. It is just barely in the water. When I cut power to my return pump, it can only drain about half an inch of water before it loses contact and breaks the siphon, preventing the water from flooding the sump.

    IMG_3125.jpg

    The #2 problem of the DT becoming flooded is solved by making the last chamber of the sump, the one in which the return pump sits, as small as reasonably possible. Now I know I started this out by saying I'd try to explain with no visuals, but it is just too confusing haha

    If the overflow/drain becomes clogged for whatever reason, the return pump will not realize this and will continue to pump water from the sump to the DT, potentially flooding the DT. That being said, the limiting factor is how big/small the return pump's chamber is and how tall the baffles are. Once the water stops draining into the sump from the clog, the pump is going to try draining that final chamber dry. By limiting the size of that chamber, you limit the maximum amount of water that can be sent to the DT.

    Illustrating this, here is one of my award-winning un-scaled drawings:

    IMG_3127.jpg

    As long as you leave yourself enough room in the DT (i.e. don't set the water level to just 0.5" from the rim of the tank) and limit the size of the chamber, there won't be enough water to flood the DT.


    As for convincing the hubs, sump will always give you more options. It adds water volume, yes, but it also reduces maintenance and filters a tank better. Instead of having a canister or HOB filter that accumulates filth that contributes nitrates to the tank and needs to be removed manually, you can run a sand bed full of detrivores, pods, and bacteria that will consume and process detritus. Toss a cheap grow light, like a Philips T2 Twister 6500k CFL over the sump and you can throw in a huge ball of chaeto or other macro algae and have an amazing refugium to soak up nitrates and phosphates. This all makes maintenance easier as there are no more canisters to take apart and put back together, no more nasty sponges to be replaced or cleaned. Saves water and salt as more nutrient export means less need for frequent and large water changes to keep nitrates and phosphates down. Speaking of water changes, a sump also allows you to do a water change without affecting the water levels in the DT or having to be digging around in there. You can just turn the return pump off and change the water in the sump, essentially leaving the DT alone unless you are wanting to clean the substrate or something.

    Sump recap: more water volume, more stability, more room for equipment like reactors/skimmer/heater, more room for a large/effective refugium, easier maintenance.

    As for weight, it won't be that much more. You control how much water the sump actually has in it at any given time by the height of the baffles. If you use a 20long, for example, and put baffles in there that are only half the height of the tank, you're really only going to have roughly 10gals of water in the sump.

  10. #20

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    0 Not allowed!
    @BluewaterBoof Thank you for that explanation, Andre. Even with your mad drawing skills, I got a little lost. lol But it's lingo that the hubs will probably understand. I will print out everything you and Matt have said and that should help me explain things to him better. The tank I have on hand is a 20 high, but the same principal with the baffles will apply. I always forget that you don't fill the sump completely up. That's a great point for the weight argument. Let's take the sump discussion over to my SW journal.

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