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Thread: order

  1. #1

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    1 Not allowed!
    The water minerals are coming in the next couple of days.

    I thought I'd run this through cichlid people out there. I'm upping my filter to the up to 75 gallon filter (leaving in the black sponge and biofilter) because the cichlids produce a lot of waste per pretty much everything I read. I chose the following.

    yellow lab cichlid, the Demasoni cichlid and the Marlieri cichlid. I had planned on putting the Marlieri in first because its the smallest and hopefully won't be seen as an incoming threat. After about three weeks, the yellow lab cichlid since it is considered a bit shy, three weeks, then the Demasoni.

    The idea is to introduce smallest/least aggressive first to lessen fights over territory.
    For the two larger cichlid, I have large stones to hide in. For the Marlieri, I have a large, rake rock mountain with several holes that the smaller fish can get into, but keeps the larger ones out. I think that is all my tank has room for and it seems balanced to me, but I'll take suggestions.

    thanks again,
    marc4

  2. #2

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    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by marc4 View Post
    ...I'm upping my filter to the up to 75 gallon filter...
    What size is the tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by marc4 View Post
    ...yellow lab cichlid, the Demasoni cichlid and the Marlieri cichlid...
    What are your target numbers for each of these species, target total quantity of african cichlids and maturity of the fish at time of purchase (i.e, juveniles, sub-adults, or full grown specimens?).

    Quote Originally Posted by marc4 View Post
    The idea is to introduce smallest/least aggressive first to lessen fights over territory.
    The need to do this is minimized if stocking juveniles (1.5”-2” specimens), they can all be introduced together and work out their hierarchy in the tank as they grow.

    When adding future cichlids to an occupied/established tank then it is generally idea that the existing fish are temperamentally less aggressive than the new additions, especially if the established fish are fully matured.

    Of the three species, the pseudotropheus demasoni is the smallest, not the marleri.

    Demasoni's can be highly conspecific aggressive, so if you are planning on multiple demasoni, they need to be maintained in large groups (12+ demasoni’s to disperse their aggression toward each other). Generally, their aggression toward other species (especially those which don’t resemble them) is not significant, as they tend to focus their attention among themselves.

    I don’t have personal experience with Julidochromis marlieri (which are a Lake Tanganyika species); I don’t know how well they fare with mbuna’s (which are from Lake Malawi). It’s my understanding that they pair up and can be hostile to other J. marlieri in the tank.

    I wouldn’t categorize yellow labs as “shy”; while somewhat ‘peaceful’ (by mbuna standards, anyway) they can fend for themselves in a general mbuna tank. They do good in groups (4-6 yellow labs).

    Without knowing the size of your tank, I wouldn’t recommend keeping a low quantity of African cichlids. For example, if your stocking goal is to have just these three fish (1 yellow lab, 1 marlieri, and a single demasoni), this may actually magnify their aggression levels.

    What are the ‘water minerals’ that you mentioned?
    African cichlid and saltwater aquariums

  3. #3

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    1 Not allowed!
    I'm pretty sure that at aqualive, you get a choice of size. I use them as a source of information. They have both the electric yellow cichlids and the Demisoni as 5" adults and the Marlieri at 3".
    All three are listed as semi- aggressive.

    The electric yellow is listed more aggressive with cichlids of similar color and body shape, much of it territorial or breeding. Both the electric yellow and demisoni are from lake mawali.

    It does say the demisoni do better with one male and three females for spawning purposes, but I don't want babies anyway. I can set my tank up to accomadate those three, but any more would really be pushing it. the electric yellow and demisoni are close in body shape, but the color and patterns couldn't be more different. The marileri doesn't have the color or patterns of the other two. They have roughly the same water perameters, and not introducing mates is something I hope will cut down on aggression.

    The added minerals are Replenish by seachem and were recommended here to replace some of the minerals our water softener removes. The winters here are very cold and freeze the outdoor faucet. In the spring, I can slowly go back to faucet water which does not go through the water softener. I wouldn't use chemicals to get a more acidic or alkaline pH for fish, but don't consider replacement of minerals taken out by water softeners is the same. Since I don't own the house and have to go with what is here, it seems like a good option. I have to make some minor tank adjustments and add more rocks along with the fake plants, and have chosen rocks and shelters that won't leech into the water while giving each fish their own territory.

    Aqualive adds a chart for environment and individual fish profiles which I like. At the moment, a larger tank is out of the question, so my choices were limited.

    marc4

  4. #4

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    0 Not allowed!
    The tank is a forty gallon with a whisper 40 that I hope to change to a filter that would cover a 75 gallon tank since the fish sound like they put out a lot of excrement.

    marc4

  5. #5

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    1 Not allowed!
    I couldn't find 'aqualive' anywhere, but if you meant liveaquaria (associated with fosters & smith), I see those cited sizes, but it's inaccurate in regards to demasoni's. They’re considered to be a 'dwarf’ mbuna species and tend to max out at 2.5"-3.5". A 3.5"-4" demasoni would be considered a large specimen.

    While I've never kept Juli's (julidochromis marlieri), I've seen them and they attain 5" or slightly over that. A 3" j. marlieri would be a sub-adult. Check multiple information sources regarding the size an adult julidochromis marlieri can attain.

    The '1 male per 3 female' gender ratio is accurate for mbuna's in general, but when dealing with demasoni's they need to be kept in larger groups. While it is true pseudotropheus demasoni's are typically semi-aggressive toward other mbuna species (especially if they do not resemble them), demasoni’s are highly aggressive toward their own kind (which is why they a required to be maintained in greater numbers if multiple demasoni's are kept). 1 m/3f can easily turn into 1-2 demasoni's.

    But since you’re planning on getting a single demasoni, you won't see the type of conspecific-aggression demasoni's can exhibit.

    Mbuna's are capable of successfully breeding with other mbuna species if the opposite gender of their species is absent from the tank; so while hybridizing between demasoni’s and yellow labs isn't likely, it's not biologically impossible.

    Also most rift lake hobbyists tend not to 'mix lakes', they either go with Lake Tanganyika species or Lake Malawi species. I've personnel kept fish from both lakes together with little issue (lake t. frontosas's with lake m. haps or lake t. tropheus with lake m. mbuna's), but I have no experience with keeping julidochromis, so I have no idea how compatible they are with mbuna's.

    I would proceed with caution keeping African cichlids in low numbers and in small tanks (for example these three fish in a 40gal). Although having one of each may eliminates reproduction-related aggression, it potentially could enhance territorial aggression. An ambitious african cichlid could attempt to claim the entire 40gal tank as it exclusive territory and make life rough for its tank mates; or one of the three may get bullied by the other two.

    But getting back to your original question, if these three fish are acquired as small juveniles, there is no reason to stagger their introduction into the tank. The tank would be new to all of them and at the stage of development they are far from their aggression peaks (which will be well developed 2 or 3 years down the road). Now if you were dealing with a larger tank and larger fish, then yes, you'd want to stock the least aggressive species first and the most aggressive species last.

    Lastly, I have not seen african cichlids as great waste producers. Normally, overfiltration recommended with them because they tend to kept in overstocked conditions.
    African cichlid and saltwater aquariums

  6. #6

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    1 Not allowed!
    The Julidochromis M that I use to breed where very peaceful per say.
    But that did depending on how much effort was given to them for rock work. If they did not have enough to for a territory they do have teeth and are not afraid to use them.
    If attention to the rock work is done correctly they are quite peacful to most inhabitants as long as they leave the julies territory alone.

  7. #7

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    0 Not allowed!
    Yes, it is liveaquaria that I refer to. I do realize that they produce a lot of waste, which is why I ordered a filter that will cover a 75 gallon tank. The holes on the suction end of the filter are too small to suck up any of these fishes, so that isn't a worry.

    I always look to other sites as well when researching a species because the information can vary quite a bit per species. I also checked the chart to see what fish are compatable. The julidochromis are farm raised if that makes a difference.

    Are you suggesting that a one species tank with one male and two females is better than having one of each species? Some sites suggest that unless conditions are right, they will not spawn. With my water pH, there are not many choices of fish.

    If possible, I'd like jto have a poll of people who have had or had lake mawali species, how many they think cut down on aggression. I do have a rock cave with several openings that only the julidochromis can get into, and am building up some other rock formations with larger openings.
    Although researching the species I want is important, it is also important to draw on the experience of people who have/had them. Since they are individuals, their behavior may differ from the literature. I expect to find varied profiles from different keepers, just as there are in the books, experience when dealing with mixing species can be just as accurate as books.

    Liveaquaria often give choices as to what sizes are available, so basing my fish on age can be done. None will be adults, so if there are squabbles, the fact that they are juvenilles should cut down on damage if there is any.

    If anyone cares to add their own experience with these species, I would appreciate your imput as to how they do when mixed, whether keeping one species rather than two is better, and finally, if the best move is to keep only one of the mawali species with a ratio of one male to two or more females is best. Much as I would have liked to have a 90 or more gallon aquarium, that simply isn't possible. Although the julidochromis is a cichlid, it does not resemble the other two species in color or body type. And yes, my spelling sucks.

    Thanks,
    marc4

  8. #8

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    0 Not allowed!
    Maintaining a species tank isn't any better or worse than keeping a tank of multiple african cichlid species (in my 125gal mbuna tank I keep 5 different mbuna species, to include yellow labs and demasoni's along with some Lake Tanganyika tropheus).

    Mbuna's are best maintained in groups. (this doesn't pertain to the julidochromis isn't a mbuna).

    Usually the "minimum" requirements are 48" of tank length (55gal tank minimum) with 8-10+ occupants (same species or not). The greater numbers reduce the amount of aggression directed at any one fish by its tank mates. Lot of rock work can also reduce mbuna aggression as it provides hiding spots and breaks line of sight.

    These 8 or so mbuna's can be the same ('species tank) or different species ('mixed tank'). When mbuna numbers dip below 8, it can enhance aggression.

    For example with 8 mbuna in the tank (we'll call the them fish A through H); if fish A ends up being hyper-dominant and/or belligerent, it may end up harassing Fish B through H who each receive a fraction of Fish A's aggression. However, if the tank only had 3 fish in it (Fish A through C), Fish B & C receive a 'greater dose' of persistent aggression from the dominant fish compared to Fish B thru H in the first example. (worse case 3-fish scenario: Fish A bullies Fish B and ignores Fish C; Fish C bullies Fish B and ignores Fish A).

    In larger tanks where mbuna numbers surpasses 20-30, aggression is thinned out by their sheer numbers in most cases.

    In a 40gal stocked with juvenile j. marlieri, l. caeruleus and p. demasoni will perhaps works while they are young, but that could change when they mature. On the other hand, yellow labs are mild compared to most mbuna's and demasoni's tend to reserve their worst aggression toward other demasoni's.
    Last edited by kaybee; 01-07-2018 at 02:47 PM.
    African cichlid and saltwater aquariums

  9. #9

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    0 Not allowed!
    So, if I want a cichlid, he should be the only fish in the tank?

    marc4

  10. #10

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    2 Not allowed!
    Just for referance. This is the set up i have used to litigate julichromis terriotry disputes. Also to allow them to escape haps.

    You virtually can't over do the rock work in rift tanks.

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