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Results 11 to 17 of 17
  1. #11

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    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksor View Post
    Each fish has a certain tolerance level for nitrates. If nitrates are high (this value varies among differing species), it can affect development of some species of fish. For instance, if you get great plant growth allowing nitrates to reach to 40ppm, you can get poor fish development from egg to adult stage.
    At any given time, since I've converted to planted tanks (bare bottom with floating and/or potted plants, full out dirted planted tanks-YES-dirted!), there has never been any nitrate registered. I'm not talking about adding tons of nitrogen as fertilizer with pressurized co2 infused tanks. Just the regular planted tank, maybe add a bit of potassium, but do you know what I mean?

    My question is more geared toward the bacteria in the substrate, as in a heavily planted tank. I do not dig into the substrate, I merely skim the surface with my siphon. How does that debris that gets trapped in the substrate (that gets used by the plants as fertilizer) contribute to deformed and stunted discus?

  2. #12

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    0 Not allowed!
    SueD and RiversGirl, you are right! I am questioning some of my own setups though :(

    No problems....that I thought.

    But I might consider changing some of my setups, I've been wanting to revamp my 120g for quite some time now, I just want to understand every way of thinking before I commit to such a big overhaul.
    Last edited by angelcraze2; 03-05-2016 at 12:39 AM.

  3. #13

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    4 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by angelcraze2 View Post
    At any given time, since I've converted to planted tanks (bare bottom with floating and/or potted plants, full out dirted planted tanks-YES-dirted!), there has never been any nitrate registered. I'm not talking about adding tons of nitrogen as fertilizer with pressurized co2 infused tanks. Just the regular planted tank, maybe add a bit of potassium, but do you know what I mean?

    My question is more geared toward the bacteria in the substrate, as in a heavily planted tank. I do not dig into the substrate, I merely skim the surface with my siphon. How does that debris that gets trapped in the substrate (that gets used by the plants as fertilizer) contribute to deformed and stunted discus?

    I will try to answer this, although I don't want to write a book about it - LOL.

    First, it was another forum member who said, in so many words in another thread, that within many substrates (where all manner of wastes collected & decomposed, and given that only some of them were being taken up by plants as nutritional elements), that bacteria developed, some good and some bad. (translation of bad: toxic/pathogenic), and I agree with this 100%.

    In my experience of over 50 years of fishkeeping on & off, and 35 years of discus- keeping, I've learned that discus are far less tolerant of poor water quality (thus receiving exposure to pathogenic elements present in that type of environment) than most other species of tropical fishes.

    Why is that you ask ?
    Well, I believe it's because discus, through their perhaps weaker, or less strong, immune systems, are genetically disposed to be that way given having been from their centuries old natural habitat in S. America.
    In nature, discus are found in constantly free-flowing tributaries of the Amazon river, where waters are continually being freshened up, are quite soft and acidic, with low levels of TDS, and logically, far lower levels, by ratio, of pathogenic elements than would likely be found in the small strict confines of an aquarium.

    In raising young immature discus in bare-bottom, ultra clean tanks I have found, as have many hundreds if not thousands, of experienced discus-keepers also have, that the percentage of discus which become stunted, or poorly-shaped, or both, is very low. If I had to quantify it, I'd say the ratio was perhaps around 5%, and only rarely up to 10% or more.

    Conversely, I have known of thousands of cases, having spent over 5 years as a colleague in the huge membership of simplydiscus.com forum, and the British & International Discus Assoc. (BIDKA), of discus newbies trying to raise young immature discus in planted tanks, with the result generally being that in the vast majority of cases, the ratio, or percentage of the discus which became stunted, or poorly-shaped, or unhealthy, or all of those things after being in that type of environment for 4-6 months or more, (and which was not kept squeaky clean at all times) to be anywhere from 25%, up to 40% or 50%, while most of the rest of the discus kept in those conditions never reached their optimum potential growth to 6" or larger.

    I can't put it any other way - this is the proof to me - need I say more ?
    Last edited by discuspaul; 03-05-2016 at 01:02 AM.

  4. #14

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    1 Not allowed!
    I agree with Paul. I haven't been around the block as long as Paul, lol, but I've observed the same in regards to discus.
    Think with logic and rationality more than emotion. Act with moderation and consideration. Contemplate ideals and realistic goals and weigh out possibilities and options. Temper not with personal delusions or false hope but learn to accept and move on.


  5. #15

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    0 Not allowed!
    discuspaul: Thank you for your response, I appreciate very much your experience in keeping discus. I also know your husbandry practices are not new and that most discus keepers and more often discus breeders practice the same procedures or similar.

    I don't doubt your 'proof' at all. Those stats are actually quite interesting. It's just crazy that water parameters and conditions can be perfect for discus (correct stable pH, temperature, no anmonia, nitrite or nitrate) yet the water in the aquarium may still not be adequate for discus.

    I think of my other fish and wonder if I'm set up for failure. I've only been keeping fish for 15 years, only started with plants about 4 years ago.
    Last edited by angelcraze2; 03-05-2016 at 03:39 AM.

  6. #16

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    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by angelcraze2 View Post
    At any given time, since I've converted to planted tanks (bare bottom with floating and/or potted plants, full out dirted planted tanks-YES-dirted!), there has never been any nitrate registered. I'm not talking about adding tons of nitrogen as fertilizer with pressurized co2 infused tanks. Just the regular planted tank, maybe add a bit of potassium, but do you know what I mean?

    My question is more geared toward the bacteria in the substrate, as in a heavily planted tank. I do not dig into the substrate, I merely skim the surface with my siphon. How does that debris that gets trapped in the substrate (that gets used by the plants as fertilizer) contribute to deformed and stunted discus?

    It is because plants eat nitrogen and ammonia, the more plants, the less nitrogen, the less ammonia. Plants are definetely good for the fish.

    The problem is mulm and detritus, and yes, you cannot expect that the plants do the job only, I have seen cases where nitrites=, ammonia=zero, but the fish get sick anyway. The explanation would be bacteries. Nonetheless, I think you can be successful (there are plenty of cases, so the question is: why?), and what I think makes the difference is feeding and chater changes. I dont think discus need less water changes because of the plants. Maybe you can extend it a bit, but just a bit, but it always will depend on the size of the aquarium. Those are my two cents.
    Rgds

  7. #17

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    0 Not allowed!
    I agree with you Donethur. My tanks never register any ammonia/nitrite OR nitrate.

    I also agree that frequent water changes are important, since their waters are refreshed constantly in the wild. I am by no means suggesting I can go longer between water changes. I try to change 50% of water at least weekly in my tanks. It helps with keeping algae away and remineralizes the water for plant growth.

    I've just decided not to keep discus is all. I didn't think they'd be that sensitive...and never found a fish I couldn't keep, but I've never kept discus either. I'll just stick with angelfish.

    Thanks to everyone for their thoughts :)
    GiVe Me sHrEd TiLL i'M dEaD
    -Kat

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