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  1. #11

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    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by mommy1 View Post
    Bacteria does not live in the water and like most every other organism it can go a short time without food and not die off. Fish are constantly releasing ammonia into the water, the bacteria will not starve. Since there is no bacteria in the water and the fish are constantly supplying new "food" for the bacteria, the bacteria will not starve if the OP does larger water changes... Simple to understand.

    Other sites also recommend larger water changes. You just haven't read those posts. Changing only a little water during cycling with fish is very old and outdated information. A few people here are constantly researching new studies, research, and articles to find new and improved ways to keep our fish healthy. We then pass that information on to the rest of the forum, to bad the other forums you read don't the same.
    I'm talking about the toxins they feed off of. Not the bacteria themselves. I'm aware at this point that they grow on surfaces.

    ...and through my searches I've not seen anything calling for 75% changes or even 90% in one sitting. I've seen one or two recommend multiple daily 50% changes for extreme cases, yes, but not that much in one go. I mean maybe I'm unlucky and all I get is super old articles/posts but the above is definitely not what I've been seeing.

    All I will say OP, is expand your research. Take what you learn here and also explore elsewhere too. If you find multiple cases supporting 75-90% WC's and feel comfortable doing as much, go for it. That said, from what I've seen, there really isn't one uniform, perfected way of taking care of freshwater fish. At least from what I've gathered over the last month. Best to make your own calls.

    I've seen some of the most bizarre situations result in fish living longer than some humans for crying out loud that you wouldn't have thought possible even under some of the best of conditions.
    Last edited by Kitterfly; 08-19-2015 at 02:40 PM.

  2. #12

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    2 Not allowed!
    Start looking at sites where people keep larger fish and in multiple numbers: www.monsterfishkeepers.com, www.oscarfish.com, www.oscarfishlover.com. You will start to see folks doing even up to 100% water changes in emergency situations, and fin level water changes (changing enough water so that the dorsal fin of the fish is just below the water line, and the fish is barely above the substrate)

    You'll also find how an instant cycle can be done on a tank where you move fish from an old tank to a new tank using 100% new dechlorinated water, and just move all the filters from the old tank to the new tank. If you can do an "instant cycle", you can do a 90% water change.
    Last edited by Rocksor; 08-19-2015 at 03:03 PM.

  3. #13

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    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksor View Post
    Start looking at sites where people keep larger fish and in multiple numbers: www.monsterfishkeepers.com, www.oscarfish.com, www.oscarfishlover.com. You will start to see folks doing even up to 100% water changes in emergency situations, and fin level water changes (changing enough water so that the dorsal fin of the fish is just below the water line, and the fish is barely above the substrate)

    You'll also find how an instant cycle can be done on a tank where you move fish from an old tank to a new tank using 100% new dechlorinated water, and just move all the filters from the old tank to the new tank. If you can do an "instant cycle", you can do a 90% water change.
    Why is it sites with only larger fish? This guy isn't running with a 100+ gallon tank and massive fish. He's got a 10 with 3 mollies and 3 platys. The prior is a huge investment in which anything off is going to immediately spark terror and drastic efforts to counter it. The latter is hardier fish in a small environment where you could just do a couple 50% changes of a day if needed and use Prime to help detox the water.

    ...and yes, I am in critical mode. I'm going to analyze and poke and prod at everything produced from now on until it's exhausted. I've gotten a hint of extremism (potentially even elitism) off of this forum and now I'm pursuing it.
    Last edited by Kitterfly; 08-19-2015 at 03:11 PM.

  4. #14

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    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitterfly View Post

    ...and yes, I am in critical mode. I'm going to analyze and poke and prod at everything produced from now on until it's exhausted. I've gotten a hint of extremism (potentially even elitism) off of this forum and now I'm pursuing it.
    You are welcome to ask questions and challenge the answers you receive, but drama, accusations, and personal attacks will not be permitted.
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  5. #15

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    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Slaphppy7 View Post
    You are welcome to ask questions and challenge the answers you receive, but drama, accusations, and personal attacks will not be permitted.
    Nothing personal and it isn't drama. It's me being blunt and to the point as to why I'm being so critical. I've also not picked on anyone in particular, so I'm not singling out individuals. Though sure I am having a back and forth with given people but that's only to be expected if I am indeed going to be so questioning. I can only be so vague, naturally.

    If you don't like my forwardness on this matter, then I'll move along elsewhere, gladly. Not like I'm tethered to here or don't have options. I'd rather do that than remain where I am not wanted.

  6. #16

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    1 Not allowed!
    I appreciate your forwardness and our discussion. Just because two or more people are discussing different opinions does not mean a moderator needs to automatically jump in. I appreciate a good discussion and the forum benefits from them.
    Last edited by mommy1; 08-19-2015 at 03:31 PM.
    When I go fishing I just throw sharp rocks in the water and wait for the dead fish to float to the top... Kingfisher
    Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes that reason is you are stupid and make bad decisions.

    I think my fish is adjusting well to the four gallon, He's laying on his side attempting to go to sleep on the bottom of the gravel.
    Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
    Dear naps, sorry I hated you so much when I was a child... Love me

  7. #17

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    My fish say Thank You - KoryKat   Thanks for the Rep ;-) - steeler58   Enjoy your weekend my friend - Taurus   Happy Birthday. - gadget228   Happy Belated Birthday! - Silbar   
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    0 Not allowed!
    Nothing wrong with being forward and blunt, to an extent, but let's maintain a positive and friendly atmosphere.
    10 Gallon Beginner Tank... Journal
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  8. #18

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    4 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitterfly View Post
    Why is it sites with only larger fish? This guy isn't running with a 100+ gallon tank and massive fish. He's got a 10 with 3 mollies and 3 platys. The prior is a huge investment in which anything off is going to immediately spark terror and drastic efforts to counter it. The latter is hardier fish in a small environment where you could just do a couple 50% changes of a day if needed and use Prime to help detox the water.

    ...and yes, I am in critical mode. I'm going to analyze and poke and prod at everything produced from now on until it's exhausted. I've gotten a hint of extremism (potentially even elitism) off of this forum and now I'm pursuing it.
    Why do large fish keepers do large water changes, because people who keep big fish like to push the limits of what can be kept. You will also find those who keep large fish have had gone through the small fish route in fish keeping in their early years and are looking for something more challenging to them, hence much larger fish.

    If you've got a 10g with 3 mollies and 3 platys, you might as well go ahead keep a massive fish in a 100+g tank. The science between keeping a large tank and a small tank hasn't changed.

    Why subject a fish to bad water quality just because the perception is that they are hardy?
    Last edited by Rocksor; 08-19-2015 at 03:35 PM.

  9. #19

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    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by mommy1 View Post
    I appreciate Your forwardness and our discussion.
    I thank you for as much. Like I said, I'm not singling out people or even saying the above is simply fact. It's just a feeling I've gotten. Maybe misplaced but there none the less.

    I understand that when it comes to quality fish with quality equipment, you don't want to take chances. Especially since they tend to be of a more sensitive nature as expert fishkeepers tend to work with. So hearing that they take drastic measures to ensure nothing can possibly kill or stress their fish does not shock me, at all.

    I just think that the fish the OP has are a hardier stock and he might be wearing himself out more by doing such large WC's than the fish themselves concerning the off nitrite levels. I honestly wouldn't recommend anything less than a 75% change personally IF he wasn't adding Prime into the tank as well, as then that is literally the only means by which he is combating the higher levels of toxins - removal, not both removal and detox.

    Like I told him, it's basically up to him as to whether or not given measures are adequate. Obviously if he has more sensitive fish and more money in his aquarium, he shouldn't risk it and be prepared to go all out if necessary. I would completely agree with that notion from what I've learned. That said, I've mentioned it before, I've got a friend with Discus that went through an uncycled tank (it is now cycled thankfully) and he did only the occasional WC throughout a month long period. They lived and lived well. Didn't seem stressed, discolored, or anything.

    Not that I would recommend as much myself. That seems to be the extreme opposite end of the spectrum. I'm not big on extremes either way they swing.
    Last edited by Kitterfly; 08-19-2015 at 03:42 PM.

  10. #20

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    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksor View Post
    Why do large fish keepers do large water changes, because people who keep big fish like to push the limits of what can be kept. You will also find those who keep large fish have had gone through the small fish route in fish keeping in their early years and are looking for something more challenging to them, hence much larger fish.

    If you've got a 10g with 3 mollies and 3 platys, you might as well go ahead keep a massive fish in a 100+g tank. The science between keeping a large tank and a small tank hasn't changed.

    Why subject a fish to bad water quality just because the perception is that they are hardy?
    The difference is though, as you said, concerns the hardiness of the fish in question. The fish the OP has can take those off water levels without the damage/issue that more sensitive fish will more readily experience. So chances are, they're not really suffering nor going to die if he doesn't completely drain the tank. I wouldn't leave them just as they are, certainly, that's not exactly fair or being caring for your fish but I wouldn't flip out either. I personally hated draining nearly my whole tank out as it not only exhausted me but my fish looked positively agitated after the act was done.

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