So now I'm cycling with fish...help!

[Cermet]

Bad news on my researching using Prime to neutralize nitrite - the people who make Prime (their owen site!) have no idea if it really does neutralize nitrites ... they think it does but have no real idea of how if it does. That is not something I would count on. So, for nitrites I'd strongly suggest only water changes to reduce. The Prime may help but I wouldn't trust it being very effective.

[houdini56]

Good morning all, and thanks again for everyone's support.

This can happen if the filter isn't ready (enough bacteria) for the number of fish added. Stuff like this happens to many of us! Your not alone - happen with my discus tank when I added my fish (too many at once and yes, nitrite spiked - lasted over three weeks.)

Just repeat a 95% water change to get the nitrites down to a safe level and check every day and do a water change as needed. The fish will be ok if you do that.

I'm going to have to take this one day at a time (the way I take most of life, actually). I think water changes more than once daily may be more than I can commit to, especially if it lasts weeks rather than days.

This morning I have 4 danios. One danio stuck his head in the filter tube, got stuck and died there. The other danio I found lodged in a plant; the area on his belly directly under his gills was red, almost like internal bleeding. The survivors are roaming all over the tank, looks like they are hoping for breakfast.

Just tested and have very high nitrites and maybe 0.5 total ammonia with API, not sure what it means because of using Prime...haven't done free ammonia or nitrates testing because I know I have to do a large water change regardless.

If these fish make it through the next 48 hours then I will cosnider buying a few more....will just see how this plays out.

Aside: it is possible that the ammonium and ammonia in the tap water is being converted into nitrite. The fish combined with the tap may be the cause for that spike; however, just do water changes and the ntrite consuming filter bacteria will grow in time.

Cermet, this is something nagging at me, too. To repeat the sequence of events that have occurred twice (during my fishless cycle): I test each morning about 8 a.m. Three mornings in a row I tested 0/0 and large nitrAtes, and dosed to 1ppm ammonia. Fourth morning I did NOT add ammonia, but rather did a 90+% water change, added Prime, and about 4 hours later added fish. Within another 4-6 hours I saw the nitrite spike each time and it all went sideways from there.

The huge water change is obviously dumping total ammonia into the tank; at the same time, I'm passing the 24 hour mark without adding any household ammonia. Now we are into chemistry that is beyond me, but I can't help but think this is where my problem is arising.

If my tank needs longer to build up BB, how many days/weeks can I feed it 1ppm ammonia per day (in a fishless cycle)? Indefinitely?

[houdini56]

And to reply to the other questions...no nitrites or nitrates in tap water with repeated testing....and I haven't done anything to the AquaFilter media other than replace the carbon bag with a bag of the ammonia remover that Seachem makes. I think I did that a week before I added the first batch of fish. Haven't touched the bag with the bio-rings in it, and have been careful to keep it wet when the filter is unplugged during changes.

[Slaphppy7]

Bag of ammonia remover?...how do we know, if it does in fact remove ammonia, that by doing so the BB are not getting the ammonia they need to feed on?...

I would remove that from the filter ASAP, and add more bio media...you want as much bio media in your filter that will fit

[sheamurai]

Yah, ditto that...by adding Prime you are already countering ammonia...that bag of ammonia remover isn't really doing anything for you. The space could be better used for more bio-media or a sponge.

[houdini56]

Well....first, I find it hard to believe that my situation could involve too LITTLE ammonia in the cycle considering it is going in with tap water. I'm sure it's possible, anything apparently is.

At this point I'm also not at all convinced that Prime is doing anything meaningful to the ammonia in my tap water.

For the sake of argument -- though this experiment is quite near its end -- I will remove the ammonia removing media and order some more bio rings.

Since this morning's 90% water change I've lost two more danios, literally...I can't see them or their bodies anywhere in the tank. The last two remaining seem pretty stressed and lethargic and I don't think they will last long. 45 minutes after this morning's large water change I had .5 nitrites and 3ppm ammonia.

I strongly suspect the ammonia in my tap water is the culprit in all these issues, and that Prime isn't doing enough "conditioning" to equalize the situation. As such, I think these large water changes may be just as harmful to the fish as not doing anything.

Lots of information but none of it seems to add up to a logical explanation. Beyond frustrating.

[sheamurai]

wow that does suck.

You might try stopping by your nearest water place and just buying a 5gal of regular (not ro) water and doing a change with that and see if that works...

I think I mentioned this before, but if your water is killing fish, regardless of what "safe levels" might be for humans, I'd be getting some water treatment for the house.

[Cliff]

Typically, bacteria is the most efficient way to remove ammonia when compared with chemical filter medias. As you have some ammonia in your tap water, I would suggest getting as much biological filter media as you can to remove the ammonia quicker. Maybe consider adding a second filter to your tank. I had found that approach to be very effective when I used to live in a city that had ammonia in the water supply.

A fishless cycle can take anywheres from 2 to 5 weeks to complete depending a whole lot of factors

If you were to increase your biological filter media ( a lot) and complete a fishless cycle with a higher ammonia level (say between 2 to 4 ppm) you will increase the amount of bacteria in your set-up and should avoid these problems in the future.

No need to get overwhelmed with chemistry when the answer can be as simple as growing a lot more bacteria to handle the ammonia from both your tap water and your fish waste.

[houdini56]

Thank you, Cliff, that sounds encouraging. I have been dosing at 1 ppm for a while, having dropped it down from 4 ppm at the point where the ammo and nitrites were going to 0.

This fishless cycle is at week 8 now, but of course it's been thrown off by my two attempts to add fish.

Once I am fishless again I will go back to dosing 4ppm ammonia, and I will get some more filter media ordered today. I think I have room in this filter for squeeze 3 bags of it on top of the sponge at the bottom. I'm willing to take as long as it takes. At some point down the road I can test the cycle by doing a 95% PWC without adding fish and see what happens in the ensuing hours.

[Cliff]

Dosing at 1ppm is not good enough considering you that same amount of ammonia (and them some) in your tap water.

I would suggest starting at 4ppm of ammonia. After your nitrite spikes, reduce the ammonia amount to 2ppm.

Once you get to the point where you can dose back up to 2ppm of ammonia and have no measurable ammonia or nitrites 18 to 24 hours later, you'll be ready. I typically do that a for a few days when cycling my tanks (after I think the tank is cycled) just to make sure I am ready to add fish.

You may still need a second filter to grow enough bacteria to make this happen, but time will tell I guess.