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  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
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    San Francisco Bay Area, CA
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

    Default How long for a mini-cycle?


    0 Not allowed!
    So I replaced my filter with a new and better DIY one a couple weeks ago. I put the old filter media in the new filter to help seed it, but the tank still had to re-cycle.

    It's been two weeks and I still have nitrites (and a bit of ammonia that just Will Not Go Away, which is part of why I changed filters in the first place! And I changed tests just to make sure the one test wasn't going off because it was getting low). I think the nitrites are going down now (hard to tell with the water changes), but it's still frustrating.

    How long do these mini-cycles last?
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    A little further from sanity
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    8,117

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    Happy Mother's Day! - Slaphppy7 For 7,000 posts!! - steeler58 Thanks for the rep!! - steeler58 For working with new fish keepers! Outstanding this month. - Taurus Just Because - Surfdog 
    A round for the fallen this Memorial Day weekend. - Compass I had no cup, so I put it on a bun... - Slaphppy7 You are amazing! So smart and giving. - SeaLady Can't give you any more rep, but well said! - steeler58 Thank again!! You seem to enjoy your coffee. - steeler58 
    Thanks for the rep!! - Compass this doesnt look like pie... not the right kind.. - Sandz for providing solid guidance to others - RiversGirl Thanks for the rep! :) - Compass cheers - Fishhook 
    Using up my winnings on my friends! - Compass No Message - Fishhook beeeeeeeer! - Sandz Bottoms up! (even though you don't drink, lol) - Slaphppy7 We miss you... - Compass 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Just like cycling is different for each tank so are mini-cycles. A mini-cycle can last anywhere from a few days to a week or two. Sounds to me like you are full blown cycling though because you changed the filter. Assuming you have fish in the tank, even with seeded media from another filter a cycle with fish can take a month or more.
    When I go fishing I just place a sharp rock in the water and sit there waiting for all the dead fish to float to the top... Kingfisher
    Brutal honesty will be shown on this screen.
    I think my fish is adjusting well to the four gallon, He's laying on his side attempting to go to sleep on the bottom of the gravel.
    Tolerance is a great thing to have, so is the ability to shut up.

    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.


  3. #3

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Agree that time varies. But when you change filters, you really should never have one of these "mini-cycles" at all. There is more nitrifying bacteria/archaea in the substrate and elsewhere (any surface covered by water will acquire a biofilm) than in the filter media. But having said that, if this is a tank that has not yet established, say 3+ months, it is possible.

    When I clean my canisters, roughly every 3-4 months, and my sponge filters every weekly water change, I rinse them under the tap. Sometimes I replace the fine pads if they are worn. According to what one reads, this should kill any bacteria. There is no effect that I have ever seen, but my tanks are established and planted and plants make a big difference.

    The ever-present ammonia might be part of this, more than the filter change.

    Byron.
    Last edited by Byron; 08-30-2013 at 07:44 PM.

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area, CA
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    498

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    Blog Entries
    1
    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Well, I did change the substrate at the same time, because the tank needed an overhaul. I couldn't effectively clean the substrate, and I was thinking it was holding too much debris and that was causing the ever-present low-level ammonia... Apparently not.

    I have no idea what's causing this low-level ammonia. Is there a form of ammonia that could create a positive in API's test, but that can't be converted by BB? I was having it in my cycled tank before the change, and this new filter has a LOT more surface area for BB to grow, so that shouldn't be the limiting factor.
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    A little further from sanity
    Posts
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    Awards Showcase

    Happy Mother's Day! - Slaphppy7 For 7,000 posts!! - steeler58 Thanks for the rep!! - steeler58 For working with new fish keepers! Outstanding this month. - Taurus Just Because - Surfdog 
    A round for the fallen this Memorial Day weekend. - Compass I had no cup, so I put it on a bun... - Slaphppy7 You are amazing! So smart and giving. - SeaLady Can't give you any more rep, but well said! - steeler58 Thank again!! You seem to enjoy your coffee. - steeler58 
    Thanks for the rep!! - Compass this doesnt look like pie... not the right kind.. - Sandz for providing solid guidance to others - RiversGirl Thanks for the rep! :) - Compass cheers - Fishhook 
    Using up my winnings on my friends! - Compass No Message - Fishhook beeeeeeeer! - Sandz Bottoms up! (even though you don't drink, lol) - Slaphppy7 We miss you... - Compass 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    While there is some bacteria living on the hard surfaces of your tank the vast majority is in the filter media. I can totally rescape my mature tank and as long as I use the same filter, media, and keep the same stock I do not have issues with the cycle. If I were to change the filter, I would lose the filter.

    Is the ammonia always in the tank or just after a water change. Ammonium from out water supply is a form of ammonia and will result in a positive ammonia reading on the API test. If your tank is fully cycled this should be converted within a few hours and have a reading of 0ppm.
    When I go fishing I just place a sharp rock in the water and sit there waiting for all the dead fish to float to the top... Kingfisher
    Brutal honesty will be shown on this screen.
    I think my fish is adjusting well to the four gallon, He's laying on his side attempting to go to sleep on the bottom of the gravel.
    Tolerance is a great thing to have, so is the ability to shut up.

    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.


  6. #6

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyby Stardancer View Post
    Well, I did change the substrate at the same time, because the tank needed an overhaul. I couldn't effectively clean the substrate, and I was thinking it was holding too much debris and that was causing the ever-present low-level ammonia... Apparently not.

    I have no idea what's causing this low-level ammonia. Is there a form of ammonia that could create a positive in API's test, but that can't be converted by BB? I was having it in my cycled tank before the change, and this new filter has a LOT more surface area for BB to grow, so that shouldn't be the limiting factor.
    Have you tested the source water (presumably tap) for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? And these may change due to some issue in the water supply.

    API and similar kits test ammonia/ammonium as "ammonia." Products like Prime and other water conditioners that deal with ammonia do so by changing it to ammonium which is harmless to fish but will still show as "ammonia" with tests (unless you have an expensive test that separates ammonia/ammonium).

    In acidic water, ammonia changes to ammonium naturally.

    Byron.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
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    San Francisco Bay Area, CA
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Honey Badger 1 View Post
    While there is some bacteria living on the hard surfaces of your tank the vast majority is in the filter media. I can totally rescape my mature tank and as long as I use the same filter, media, and keep the same stock I do not have issues with the cycle. If I were to change the filter, I would lose the filter.

    Is the ammonia always in the tank or just after a water change. Ammonium from out water supply is a form of ammonia and will result in a positive ammonia reading on the API test. If your tank is fully cycled this should be converted within a few hours and have a reading of 0ppm.
    I perform any water changes directly after testing. The ammonia is there, even days later when it should have been converted by the BB already. And my water company uses chloramines. If I test water strait out of the tap, I get 0 ammonia, but if I test it after treating it with Prime I get .25-.5ppm ammonia.

    The history for the tank is here, on page 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    Have you tested the source water (presumably tap) for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? And these may change due to some issue in the water supply.

    API and similar kits test ammonia/ammonium as "ammonia." Products like Prime and other water conditioners that deal with ammonia do so by changing it to ammonium which is harmless to fish but will still show as "ammonia" with tests (unless you have an expensive test that separates ammonia/ammonium).

    In acidic water, ammonia changes to ammonium naturally.
    There are both ammonia (from chloramines) and nitrates in my tap. I'm trying to get out the nitrates by pre-filtering water for water changes with nitra-zorb, but I'm not sure how effective that is in reality.

    My water is basic, so unless I add Prime every other day, I have problems. That's part of why the never-quite-goes-away ammonia is so troubling to me.
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  8. #8

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyby Stardancer View Post
    I perform any water changes directly after testing. The ammonia is there, even days later when it should have been converted by the BB already. And my water company uses chloramines. If I test water strait out of the tap, I get 0 ammonia, but if I test it after treating it with Prime I get .25-.5ppm ammonia.

    The history for the tank is here, on page 2.



    There are both ammonia (from chloramines) and nitrates in my tap. I'm trying to get out the nitrates by pre-filtering water for water changes with nitra-zorb, but I'm not sure how effective that is in reality.

    My water is basic, so unless I add Prime every other day, I have problems. That's part of why the never-quite-goes-away ammonia is so troubling to me.
    I would not add Prime except at the actual water change; I have written elsewhere on the negatives of using too much. Besides, when it changes ammonia to ammonium, it is permanent, and ammonium is safe. Your test will still show "ammonia" as I explained above.

    The nitrates are a different issue of course.

    Byron.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    498

    Awards Showcase

    Blog Entries
    1
    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Everything I had read previously (and including previous times I had looked at the website for Prime) said that it was only good for up to two days. Now I can't see where on the website it says that. I don't know if they altered their formula slightly or what.
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  10. #10

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyby Stardancer View Post
    Everything I had read previously (and including previous times I had looked at the website for Prime) said that it was only good for up to two days. Now I can't see where on the website it says that. I don't know if they altered their formula slightly or what.
    I corresponded direct with Seachem to sort this out, as I was copncerned over the issue of heavy metals and plant fertilizers. Anyway, they told me that the ammonia to ammonium is permanet. The other issues like nitrite, nitrate and heavy metals would revert back in 36-48 hours if these substances were still present.

    The ammonia/ammonium change is the ion structure of the nitrogen, and I guess this remains. If one accepts what they say, of course.

    Byron.

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