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  1. Default


    0 Not allowed!
    that sounds like exactly what I am looking for. I do want to have a substrate though for some fake tall plants,what kind should I do. I've done sand before and gravel. Also the filter is an aquaclear 70 so I have an extra 15 gallons of filtration. I|'m also thinking about doing a sump. I do like the idea of corys and some rummneynose tetras with a ram but I'm also interested in adding swordtails and maybe a small ghostknife would those work?

  2. #12

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    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    A fine point to look at, is that an AC70 is rated for flow without filter media in it. It will be barely sufficient for the discus as is. Adding a sump or at the very least a solid canister filter would be the best fitration option.

    Swordtails would be fine but no knifes. They do not work at all in a 55gal tank. Also for your swordtails, you need to ensure you have a lid with 100% coverage. They are nutorious jumpers.
    FW: 1 45gal, 1 40gal, 3 10gal, 3 30gal all community tanks of different species
    Sw: 1 55gal, 1 30gal show, 1 29gal show, 1 20gal and 2 10's

  3. #13

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Water parameters haven't been mentioned yet, and as swordtails being livebearers need moderately hard water, and discus being soft water fish need the exact opposite, I would not recommend this mix. The other fish we have so far been mentioning are all soft water.

    I know a lot of discus aquarists maintain them in tanks with no substrate, or no live plants, but this is very un-natural for the fish. And having seen them thriving in planted tanks with sand, I would not discount that option. And, a substrate with live plants does immediately mean better water conditions.

    Byron.

  4. #14

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    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by kermit58 View Post
    Water parameters haven't been mentioned yet, and as swordtails being livebearers need moderately hard water, and discus being soft water fish need the exact opposite, I would not recommend this mix. The other fish we have so far been mentioning are all soft water.

    I know a lot of discus aquarists maintain them in tanks with no substrate, or no live plants, but this is very un-natural for the fish. And having seen them thriving in planted tanks with sand, I would not discount that option. And, a substrate with live plants does immediately mean better water conditions.

    Byron.
    Here is something I will disagree with. PH of a breeding discus and TDS in the water are an issue to consider. That is only in the case of breeding. It is actually benificial to have fry (fry/juvinile discus are those smaller than 4in) in harder water. Being that they are hyperosmotic fish, the extra calcium helps fortify propper shape and expands growth rates.
    FW: 1 45gal, 1 40gal, 3 10gal, 3 30gal all community tanks of different species
    Sw: 1 55gal, 1 30gal show, 1 29gal show, 1 20gal and 2 10's

  5. #15

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandz View Post
    Here is something I will disagree with. PH of a breeding discus and TDS in the water are an issue to consider. That is only in the case of breeding. It is actually benificial to have fry (fry/juvinile discus are those smaller than 4in) in harder water. Being that they are hyperosmotic fish, the extra calcium helps fortify propper shape and expands growth rates.
    I won't argue the point as I can recognize your knowledge from what you have thus far posted. But I would just ask a couple questions. How do these fish manage in their habitat which has no calcium whatsoever in the water? I appreciate what little calcium they obtain would have to come from their food, such as crustaceans, but this can't be much. I have considerable difficulty accepting that such fish "need" calcium in an aquarium, especially given the issue of increasing TDS which can harm these fish, according to sources such as Dr. Neale Monks, Jack Wattley, Gery, Weitzman, etc. I have always considered it best to accept such advice.

    I think we often assume fish are just fine because they manage, or appear to manage, to live in the water we give them, but that does not mean it is necessary or best to do this or that.

    Byron.
    Last edited by Byron; 08-06-2013 at 10:19 PM.

  6. #16

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    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Byron - sorry it took me so long to get back to this. It didnt come up that you had posted anything in the recent posts.

    At no point am I stating a need for calcium. Actually fry in the wild have more rotifers than crustations. I am meerly stating that the fry can benefit from hard water. This is based on my experiences with the fish as well as consulting with others in the hobby.

    I respect Jacks words and Monks... I have found through developments made by other breeders (some on the SimplyDiscus forum) that there are other ways than a specific ph/tds.

    Additionally I find stability to be the most key factor in all fish applications. Modifying tap water is something that comes with instability. I much rather insist that a hobbiest take on acclimating fish that have been bred and raised in these conditions of hod-hard tap and even ph rather than suggesting the multitudes of variable water quality in attempts to lower ph.

    Additionally I have talked to the OP aboutr their tanks... they need to focus on a lot more than just ph and tds, so part of my take is from that too.
    FW: 1 45gal, 1 40gal, 3 10gal, 3 30gal all community tanks of different species
    Sw: 1 55gal, 1 30gal show, 1 29gal show, 1 20gal and 2 10's

  7. #17

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Sandz, I see you've become the authority on discus fishes, ^^.

    Byron, it really depends on where he's getting his discus from.

    If it's not wild discus he's getting but the ones that are bred for generations through a breeder in some fish farm; I wouldn't worry too much about messing around with the tap. Stability is better imo.

    Even in the wilds, they're generally swimming around tree roots devoid of plant life. Aside from the low pH and soft water, they're swimming in tree roots in either black water or sometimes clear water. Even then, the TDS in those water can vary. So having plants is kind of "un-natural" for them as well if we want to talk about their natural habitat.
    Think with logic and rationality more than emotion. Act with moderation and consideration. Contemplate ideals and realistic goals and weigh out possibilities and options. Temper not with personal delusions or false hope but learn to accept and move on.

  8. #18

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Spardas View Post
    Sandz, I see you've become the authority on discus fishes, ^^.

    Byron, it really depends on where he's getting his discus from.

    If it's not wild discus he's getting but the ones that are bred for generations through a breeder in some fish farm; I wouldn't worry too much about messing around with the tap. Stability is better imo.

    Even in the wilds, they're generally swimming around tree roots devoid of plant life. Aside from the low pH and soft water, they're swimming in tree roots in either black water or sometimes clear water. Even then, the TDS in those water can vary. So having plants is kind of "un-natural" for them as well if we want to talk about their natural habitat.
    I won't disagree with most of this. However, I would point out that for half the year when the forest floods, the discus are among plants, thick plants, and this of course is when they spawn because food is plentiful. And the plants give them protection. When they are forced back into their rivers and streams during the dry season, they are then clustered among branches for protection sinc e many of these watercourses are too dimly lit to have aquatic plant life.

    The TDS in Amazonian water varies very little. Someone like Heiko Bleher who has collected fish all over South America and written books on discus, has tested the water and can verify the very low TDS. The pH and temperature fluctuate with the rains of course, but not to the extent of becoming basic in pH.

    Byron.
    Byron Hosking, BMus, MA
    Vancouver, BC, Canada

    Something we all need to remember: The fish you've acquired was quite happy not being owned by you, minding its own business. If you’re going to take it under your wing then you’re responsible for it. Every aspect of its life is under your control, from water quality and temperature to swimming space. [Nathan Hill in PFK]

  9. #19

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    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandz View Post
    A fine point to look at, is that an AC70 is rated for flow without filter media in it. It will be barely sufficient for the discus as is. Adding a sump or at the very least a solid canister filter would be the best fitration option.
    Filtrati0n is a deal breaker with sensitive fish, ++ t0 Sandz 0n this.
    When in d0ubt read it until it makes sense, then read it again!

  10. #20

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by kermit58 View Post
    I won't disagree with most of this. However, I would point out that for half the year when the forest floods, the discus are among plants, thick plants, and this of course is when they spawn because food is plentiful. And the plants give them protection. When they are forced back into their rivers and streams during the dry season, they are then clustered among branches for protection sinc e many of these watercourses are too dimly lit to have aquatic plant life.

    The TDS in Amazonian water varies very little. Someone like Heiko Bleher who has collected fish all over South America and written books on discus, has tested the water and can verify the very low TDS. The pH and temperature fluctuate with the rains of course, but not to the extent of becoming basic in pH.

    Byron.
    Right, they do swim into areas with plants during the rainy season but we can see that they're highly adapatable fishes even as wilds.

    Let's not mix up TDS versus GH/KH hardness measurements. Depending on the source of where the wild is coming from, it can vary in terms of TDS but hardness measurement can be quite similar. Also, pH range can range anywhere as low as 4 to 6.5 depending on the area. The reason for having water with more TDS is for the minerals to help with the growth of juveniles. Again, generally speaking, of the wilds I've kept in the past, I find them to be smaller than the discus I raise from domestic source. That is unless the wild itself came from an area where they can get an abundance of nutrition and food (plus the gene of the larger strain of discus). There are definitely strains that can get larger than others. Some strains are naturally weaker than others, etc. But one can definitely attribute the growth of a discus through the water combined with nutritious food.

    That's not to say that it's not easier to get them to breed in soft water. It is and the batch of eggs are definitely larger for wilds but it's not impossible for them to breed in more basic water either.

    But back to the OP, I'm going to assume that he received domestic discus. After decades and generation of breeding, they're much more adaptable and it will do good to actually raise them in water with higher TDS of good dissolved minerals. If the tap is naturally lacking in TDS, it is better to fortify the food with vitamins to offset the lack of minerals in the water.

    To have good healthy discus, it's all about the water, the food, and the source of the discus.

    The AC70 is acceptable if you're willing to do large water changes on a daily basis. When I had discus, they all had 80% water changes x2 daily....

    If not, more filters. It doesn't hurt to have more filters.
    Think with logic and rationality more than emotion. Act with moderation and consideration. Contemplate ideals and realistic goals and weigh out possibilities and options. Temper not with personal delusions or false hope but learn to accept and move on.

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