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  1. #1

    Default A (perhaps) novel thought on fishless cycling?


    0 Not allowed!
    As some of you may have already seen, I like to research things to death, particularly when my travel schedule is preventing me from doing actual work on my tank :-(

    So, I have been reading and reading about fishless cycles, and then reading some more. And in all that reading I had an idea (gasp!) <turning on the fans to vent away all those fumes coming out from my ears>

    The way I understand the cycle is that you first feed 2-4ppm ammonia or so to start growing the bacteria that oxidize ammonia into nitrites. To jump start this process many people seed their tank with BB from an established tank to have a base of bacteria that can quickly start to reproduce. Once you start seeing nitrites it means the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria are present in sufficient amounts and working well, at which point you start growing the nitrite-oxidizing ones. These nitrite-oxidizers do not do well in high concentrations of ammonia, so the recommendation is to lower the daily dosing of ammonia by half to allow the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria to develop well.

    Ok, so far so good. My idea (gasp!) occurs at this stage of the process. When we add BB from an established tank at the start of the cycling process we jump start the growth of the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria. However, given the high ammonia levels and the non-existent nitrites during the first several days, most of the nitrite-oxidizers present in the original seed will disappear, partly because of the high ammonia levels and partly because they have had no nitrites to feed on. So, when we finally get to the point where we need to grow the nitrite-oxidizers, the tank effectively has no seed for these bacteria. Our seed jump started the ammonia-oxidizers, but will probably not be very effective at jump starting this second phase.

    To address this, I am thinking it might be a good idea to re-seed the tank once more when you get to this point, to add a seed of the nitrite-oxidizers and therefore speed up the second part of the cycling process.

    Does this have any merit? Or is this just good to wrap fish with? (pardon the obscure pun, couldn't help it!). I am going to start cycling soon and i will give it a try, but I have no idea how long it would take without this second seeding, so i cannot compare results to see if it actually did something.

  2. #2

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    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Good idea but flawed thinking. When you seed with bb from another filter nitrites are made to feed the other bacteria. If only enough for the existing bb to survive, its still there. The idea of jump starting a filter this way is to grow both types of bb in the filter at the same time. Always when ammonia is being used by bb it makes nitrites, might not be enough to notice but its still there.
    KING OF THE GOLD BARBS RAWR!!!!
    I wonder if i plant one of my tiger barbs would the demon seed grow to a full tree?
    gotta love them bunnies!
    I.R.S.: We've got what it takes to take what you've got!

  3. #3

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    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    It sounds good, but I think it all matters with how much seeded material you are starting with and how big a tank you are cycling. I have successfully cycled a smaller bio-load tank completely by just adding a large amount seeded media from a cycled filter from a larger bio-load tank. I have also used seeded media and had the cycle take a week to complete. So, perhaps if you are going from a smaller bio-load to a larger one your idea is the way to go.
    When I go fishing I just place a sharp rock in the water and sit there waiting for all the dead fish to float to the top... Kingfisher
    Brutal honesty will be shown on this screen.
    I think my fish is adjusting well to the four gallon, He's laying on his side attempting to go to sleep on the bottom of the gravel.
    Tolerance is a great thing to have, so is the ability to shut up.

    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.


  4. #4

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    I think it's pretty solid thinking especially for a newbie. It may not be necessary but if ammonia is quickly sorted but nitrites are lagging a bit a reseed wouldn't hurt.

  5. #5

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Thanks for the feedback... I guess the verdict is "can't hurt, but probably won't help either". I sort of figured that if this had any merit someone would have already thought of it.

    Maybe I will try it on my own tank just for the heck of it... it will give me something else to do while I wait for the cycle to complete and keep me from pestering the forum with strange posts like this one

  6. #6

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    Just Because - Surfdog A round for the fallen this Memorial Day weekend. - Compass I had no cup, so I put it on a bun... - Slaphppy7 You are amazing! So smart and giving. - SeaLady Can't give you any more rep, but well said! - steeler58 
    Thank again!! You seem to enjoy your coffee. - steeler58 Thanks for the rep!! - Compass this doesnt look like pie... not the right kind.. - Sandz for providing solid guidance to others - RiversGirl Thanks for the rep! :) - Compass 
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    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    I didn't mean to say it wouldn't help. On the contrary, I think it is a good idea. Like Talldutchie said, when the seeded cycle seems to have stalled it would be a good idea. We have seen it happen many times here that a seeded cycle should have been complete instantly or in a short amount of time and for some reason it stalls. When that happens, your explanation and solution should be suggested. Let us know how it works for you.
    When I go fishing I just place a sharp rock in the water and sit there waiting for all the dead fish to float to the top... Kingfisher
    Brutal honesty will be shown on this screen.
    I think my fish is adjusting well to the four gallon, He's laying on his side attempting to go to sleep on the bottom of the gravel.
    Tolerance is a great thing to have, so is the ability to shut up.

    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.


  7. #7

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    I read this with interest. It's an excellent idea and would certainly help boost growth, but I agree - nitrite oxidizers won't die off completely as they'll be fed by the ammonia oxidizers you've also introduced. I think seeding a second time is a good insurance choice.

    It'd be fascinating to do a control experiment with this theory. One your new way, and one the standard single seed way.
    "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." Carl Sagan

    ~ 350 Litre Tank Journal ~ ~ 30 Litre Tank Journal ~

  8. #8

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    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Excellent thread. Kudos, wgoldfarb, for thinking outside the box.
    My 75 gal Journal & My Dual 29 gal Journal
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  9. #9

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Thanks all for the kudos and feedback. I'd love to do a control, but alas I only have the one tank I am still setting up. Maybe when MTS sets in I will do two tanks at once and try this out! See? I now have a great excuse to go from 1 to 3 tanks!

  10. #10

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    Just Because - Surfdog A round for the fallen this Memorial Day weekend. - Compass I had no cup, so I put it on a bun... - Slaphppy7 You are amazing! So smart and giving. - SeaLady Can't give you any more rep, but well said! - steeler58 
    Thank again!! You seem to enjoy your coffee. - steeler58 Thanks for the rep!! - Compass this doesnt look like pie... not the right kind.. - Sandz for providing solid guidance to others - RiversGirl Thanks for the rep! :) - Compass 
    cheers - Fishhook Using up my winnings on my friends! - Compass No Message - Fishhook beeeeeeeer! - Sandz Bottoms up! (even though you don't drink, lol) - Slaphppy7 
    We miss you... - Compass thank you for the filter! - RiversGirl for the fun game! - SeaLady Thank you very very much!! - Compass Love the games. Thank you :) - rebecca_finny 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Sounds like a perfect excuse to set up two tanks at once. It's for the sake of knowledge. Seems like you are obligated to set up two for the advancement of the hobby!
    When I go fishing I just place a sharp rock in the water and sit there waiting for all the dead fish to float to the top... Kingfisher
    Brutal honesty will be shown on this screen.
    I think my fish is adjusting well to the four gallon, He's laying on his side attempting to go to sleep on the bottom of the gravel.
    Tolerance is a great thing to have, so is the ability to shut up.

    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.


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