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Results 21 to 30 of 87

Thread: Blackfish

  1. #21

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    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    I think some of the issues with Orcas is that once captured its very hard to release them (aka a rehab) because each orca pod has their own dialect which makes a reintroduction extremely difficult.

    And while they may all look similar, there are distinctions amongst types... where some have very different diets from others and NOAA has differentiated up to 10 differing types.

  2. #22

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksor View Post
    Depends on the fish that you are talking about. Do you know that a jack dempsey pair will defend an area as big as an SUV (500g-1000g of water)? What about a silver arowana? or a gigas arapaima?
    The last one, along with stuff like mekong giant cats, does not count for me as an aquarium fish. Arguably you could keep it too provided enough space, but that is beyond the scope of typical aquaria. It certainly is true that the first two species(and many larger aquarium fish too, anyways) are not able to display a full range of behavior in the majority of tanks they are kept in, but i still dont think that they have ranges over 100's or 1000's of square km, nor are they even approaching the intelligence if the orca.

  3. #23

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    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    These are just methods of hunting. Some are seemingly more complex than others, but let's not pretend it's something that it's not. Great White Sharks chase seals from below the surface of the water so that they end up jumping into the air and easier to catch... is that a mark of genius in a fish?
    No one is claiming they are geniuses Kevin. "Seemingly" more complex? I'm not sure the complexity of hunting tactics is up for debate. Wolves have a less complex hunting method when compared to African hunting dogs. Orcas have a more complex hunting method when compared to a great white shark. No one is arguing the efficiency of either, but "complexity" and its links to higher levels of intelligence is well documented.

    They house these animals in eco-friendly habitats (just as zoos do)
    The recommendations of one of your scientific papers seem to disagree with this - tanks are inadequate in size and do not offer social contact with other orcas.

    without harming or forcing them to
    SeaWorld train their orcas using harm. Methods involve bullying from other orcas with whom they are paired for training. Both individuals are punished if the "new recruit" does not perform the behaviour asked for. The experienced whale (being punished for the newbie's failure) then turns on the new whale and this becomes the punishment. Captive, performing whales tend to be covered in scars and welts from this activity. Food is also withheld from individuals who fail to perform.



    Sea World also takes part in conservation and contributes to science... Do circuses?
    So by the rationale, does snapping a whip at a lion every day and keeping them in inadequate cages suddenly become justified if the circus does some research and conservation? How does that work? It's ok to have elephants chained for 21 hours a day so long as they do some research? Erm...ok.

    I think it's arguable that the living conditions for these whales isn't satisfactory
    Re-read your papers.

    t's also arguable that these animals are living much easier/happier lives in captivity, due to the care, attention, easy feeding, exercise they receive.
    How do you explain why they live a third of their normal lifespan in captivity then?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    As an aside, the folded-over/collapsed dorsal fin in Orcas has been found in the wild, in addition to captivity. There are numerous reasons that this could happen - "depression" not being one of them.
    Depression has not been proven to not cause it.

    Collapsed dorsal fin occurs in less than 1% of the wild population, but more than 25% of the captive one.
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  4. #24

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    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Im not going to jump into anything head first here as I have never been personally responsable to train anything more than a dog - but I have worked behind the scenes with birds of prey training, in and around aquatic training and have hands on lessons from other teachers in the field... Non specific to seaworld.

    I think a law suit is in order if Seaworld's training process has been published and not followed. PETA and a whole assortment of groups would use them as cannon fodder. Seaworld states the following:

    "When used consistently, the LRS technique eventually decreases undesired behavior. Reinforcing the animal for calm, attentive behavior following the LRS helps reduce frustration that might result from the lack of reinforcement and teaches the animal to react in a non-aggressive way. An animal never is forced into a situation, nor is it ever punished."

    This is from http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/...philosophy.htm
    FW: 1 45gal, 1 40gal, 3 10gal, 3 30gal all community tanks of different species
    Sw: 1 55gal, 1 30gal show, 1 29gal show, 1 20gal and 2 10's

  5. #25

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by ~firefly~ View Post
    The recommendations of one of your scientific papers seem to disagree with this - tanks are inadequate in size and do not offer social contact with other orcas.
    You know what they say about opinions... The scientific papers I provided to you were used to show that collapsed dorsal fins are a naturally occurring phenomenon. Even in the photo you posted below, the fin is erect, which contradicts the theory that depression and/or inadequate housing causes dorsal fin collapse.

    SeaWorld train their orcas using harm. Methods involve bullying from other orcas with whom they are paired for training. Both individuals are punished if the "new recruit" does not perform the behaviour asked for. The experienced whale (being punished for the newbie's failure) then turns on the new whale and this becomes the punishment. Captive, performing whales tend to be covered in scars and welts from this activity. Food is also withheld from individuals who fail to perform.

    http://www.takepart.com/sites/defaul...tekoa-cuts.jpg
    If you cared to read any of the information from the previous links I posted about Sea World, you'd find out what the animal's training entails. You know, I've seen the bullying Orcas argument before, but I've never seen a case against Sea World. In fact, I believe Sea World has made mention of the practice elsewhere. I just read something about it yesterday. Can't remember the source, though.

    Btw, how do you know what the injury is from?


    So by the rationale, does snapping a whip at a lion every day and keeping them in inadequate cages suddenly become justified if the circus does some research and conservation? How does that work? It's ok to have elephants chained for 21 hours a day so long as they do some research? Erm...ok.
    My point on their conservation/research is that they are very much a zoological organization and care about the animals they keep... You always find some hidden/underlying meaning in the things I type - and I'm not sure if it's purposeful or not. The additional point is that Sea World does not brutalize, whip or harm their animals... in fact, they take great care of them.

    Re-read your papers.
    Apparently you're reading only the 20 opinions on captivity and ignoring the 40+ opinions on other reasons. Read it more objectively.

    How do you explain why they live a third of their normal lifespan in captivity then?
    How do you know they would have lived longer in the wild? I see that there's been a 14yr and a 20yr study on Orca longevity... but how is that supposed to provide accurate estimates on age and longevity? Especially when they're suggesting that Orcas live 60-80years. The only accurate findings we have for scientific research on age/longevity are those that have been gained through those Orcas born in captivity. Sea World has 40yrs of research on Orcas in captivity, which is the longest study in the scientific realm of Orcas.

    Have you ever tried to estimate the age of a dog you've adopted (if you've adopted any)? I can tell you, first hand, that Veterinarians even have a hard time estimating the age of dogs, when the birth date is unknown. Now imagine estimating the age of a whale swimming around in the ocean.

    Depression has not been proven to not cause it.
    Are you the Orca Whisperer?

    Collapsed dorsal fin occurs in less than 1% of the wild population, but more than 25% of the captive one.
    Except that it occurs in 23% of the male Orcas off of New Zealand? Did you read that study? Where did this 1% figure come from? What study? How many Orcas were in the study? In fact, how many have you actually seen or has the producer of this video actually seen?
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  6. #26

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    0 Not allowed!
    Right on people! This is the way to have a debate and nobody is getting mad, well done all of you.
    Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.
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  7. #27

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    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by steeler1 View Post
    Right on people! This is the way to have a debate and nobody is getting mad, well done all of you.
    There really is n0 reas0n t0 be mad at 0ne an0ther 0ver this stuff, n0ne 0f us 0wn 0rcas, L0L. This truly is an awes0me c0nversti0n th0ugh. Many many excellent statements fr0m b0th camps!
    When in d0ubt read it until it makes sense, then read it again!

  8. #28

    Talking


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    You know what they say about opinions... The scientific papers I provided to you were used to show that collapsed dorsal fins are a naturally occurring phenomenon.
    Fin distortion is an occasional occurance in wild orcas. SeaWorld regularly quote the New Zealand study to explain that it is naturally occuring. Sadly, they are cooking the books as the NZ study documented all kinds of distortion - bites, frays, slight twists, waves, ...and finally - complete collapse. Less than 1% of wild orcas suffer complete collapse. 100% of male orcas in captivity (the photo above is female by the way) have dorsal collapse.

    You ignore other studies in Norway where less than 1% of orcas had any form of dorsal distortion. Studies on Canadian pods had similarly low percentages. This indicates to me that this one study has been overly-relied upon by those that have something to gain for creating bias. A scientific met-analysis of all studies carried out needs to be performed to get the most accurate picture. In any case, it will far less than what you are quoting.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    Even in the photo you posted below, the fin is erect, which contradicts the theory that depression and/or inadequate housing causes dorsal fin collapse.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    If you cared to read any of the information from the previous links I posted about Sea World, you'd find out what the animal's training entails.
    "If I cared"? Excuse me?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    I've seen the bullying Orcas argument before, but I've never seen a case against Sea World. In fact, I believe Sea World has made mention of the practice elsewhere. I just read something about it yesterday. Can't remember the source, though.
    Blackfish has evidence of it in the movie - go see it if you're interested, then you can make a balanced judgement on the evidence. You might then blow it out of the water if necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    Btw, how do you know what the injury is from?
    Evidence of actual attacks on film. SeaWorld actually lost an orca that was brutally attacked by another orca. The orca suffered severe hemorrhaging and bled out.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    My point on their conservation/research is that they are very much a zoological organization and care about the animals they keep...
    I'm sure the keepers/trainers care deeply about the animals they look after. I'm not so convinced the SeaWorld management care at all about them - other than to ensure they make plenty of profit for them. I suppose this is why they took a baby orca from it's mother to increase profits at another park. Given the incredibly strong bond between mother and baby, and the trauma this demonstrably caused, this is completely unacceptable.

    Actually, when they did this the mother began to scream, and scream, and scream. They hadn't heard an orca make this noise before and brought the scientists in to analyse the behaviour and calls. The conclusion drawn was that it was distress and intense psychological trauma. The mother was using a rarely-used, and rarely-heard, distance call to attempt to communicate with the "lost" baby. Very sad. Funny that it doesn't stop them continuing to do this though.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    You always find some hidden/underlying meaning in the things I type
    Do I? I'm just taking you word for word and disagreeing with you, that's all. E.g. You justify the parks existence by saying they do research and conservation - I applied that to a circus (a land-based organisation who get captive wild animals to perform tricks to entertain the paying public) and it doesn't quite sit comfortably. Hmmm...I wonder why?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    in fact, they take great care of them.
    That is what is up for debate here.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    Apparently you're reading only the 20 opinions on captivity and ignoring the 40+ opinions on other reasons. Read it more objectively.
    Erm...I have. You don't take any notice of my reasoning and ignore all the recommendations of these papers.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    How do you know they would have lived longer in the wild?
    Again, a meta-analysis would be required but here's one of the more extensive comparative studies of wild v captive mortality rates:

    http://www.orcanetwork.org/nathist/r...y/survival.htm

    "In other words, mortality is significantly higher in captivity for all ages. Small and Demaster (1995b) also note that survival of killer whales in captivity has not improved recently:...over the 5-year period between 1988 and 1992 compared with estimates based on data through 1987 [i.e., since 1965]...survival in captivity for killer whales...remained the same."

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    The only accurate findings we have for scientific research on age/longevity are those that have been gained through those Orcas born in captivity.
    What's your source for this statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    Sea World has 40yrs of research on Orcas in captivity, which is the longest study in the scientific realm of Orcas.
    And? It's far easier to study a goldfish in a small bowl as opposed to in a lake. The majority of studies in the early years would have been done so in captivity. The results of the captive studies still show shortened lifespans, in adequate living conditions, and inadequate social freedoms. Every recommendation I've found so far state that the aquariums are too small and that the orcas are socially deprived. I haven't found one yet that supports captivity in any ethical sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    Have you ever tried to estimate the age of a dog you've adopted (if you've adopted any)? I can tell you, first hand, that Veterinarians even have a hard time estimating the age of dogs, when the birth date is unknown. Now imagine estimating the age of a whale swimming around in the ocean.
    I live in London and work full-time so I don't have a dog (that would be very mean on the dog!)

    Orca age estimates? I don't know. It's difficult after they reach 20 years old (by dental records) but pods have been studied for years where stages of development (and degeneration) have been documented and profiled by the scientific community. These estimates are not contentious in the scientific community. Many papers are peer reviewed and not funded by those with "an agenda". I cannot say the same for the SeaWorld statistics which, naturally, they need to be careful about.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    Are you the Orca Whisperer?
    Haha, no. I don't think there is such a role.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    Except that it occurs in 23% of the male Orcas off of New Zealand?
    No, see above. Some difigurement occurs in 23% of male orcas around NZ. Floppy fin syndrome was not measured at 23%. This is a distorted statistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVA View Post
    how many have you actually seen or has the producer of this video actually seen?
    Well that blows every collaborative piece of published research out of the water Forget it then. I don't believe Australia exists until I see it with my own two beedy eyes!
    "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." Carl Sagan

    ~ 350 Litre Tank Journal ~ ~ 30 Litre Tank Journal ~

  9. #29

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    This is taking up FAR too much time...I have a bottle of wine to open this evening and I'm slacking!

    Thanks for being a good sport, Kevin. I thoroughly disagree with you on most topics (except for our aquarium hobby), but it's healthy to be challenged on certain topics.
    "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." Carl Sagan

    ~ 350 Litre Tank Journal ~ ~ 30 Litre Tank Journal ~

  10. #30

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Recent SeaWorld neglect?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3670634.html

    Signing off now.
    "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." Carl Sagan

    ~ 350 Litre Tank Journal ~ ~ 30 Litre Tank Journal ~

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