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08-01-2013, 02:14 PM #11
I c0uld see s0me animals being rehabbed and released, with many species they d0 this successfully but I d0ubt it is ever d0ne fr0m a z00 type setup, I imagine there w0uld be far t0 many issues t0 deal with concerning interaction with s0 many humans and s0 f0rth.When in d0ubt read it until it makes sense, then read it again!
08-01-2013, 02:39 PM #12
Why should size of the animal matter? If you're going to argue that it's wrong to keep Orcas in captivity, then argue that it's wrong to keep elephants, dolphins, sharks, lions, tigers and bears - oh my! The argument shouldn't single out specific creatures in nature, should it? Orcas and Great Apes aren't the only creatures on this planet that behave similarly. Just look at how Lions train their cubs to hunt - or wolves, for that matter.
Are Orcas incredibly intelligent? Yes... so are dolphins, seals, sea lions, cats and dogs. Do we show them the same courtesy of not keeping them in captivity?
Instinctual behavior can be attributed to many things - including the care for and training of offspring. Survival is of the utmost importance in the wild - instinct compels these animals to survive at any cost. If a lion doesn't know how to hunt, it won't eat. The same can be said for the Orca. If a wild animal doesn't care for and protect their offspring, their offspring would die. Even the bison protects its' calf from predators (I've seen a mother stop running in a herd to defend its' offspring from a pack of wolves.) Pretty amazing footage, actually:
A world without zoos and aquariums... I wonder what kind of an effect that would have had on the world populace? Would we care more or care less about the animals in our world? Would we even know as much as we do about conservation, if we didn't have these facilities and the research obtained from having them?
Is it more interesting to see these animals in their natural element? I would argue that it is... but I do believe zoos and aquariums, and even Sea World has a place in society. They've created awareness and education on the many animals in this world that we normally would not have seen.
That being said... since we have so many animals in captivity in Zoos/Aquariums, I do feel that we shouldn't have to catch any others in the wild. We should be able to breed any animal that we have, so that our Zoo/Aquarium population can be sustained, without having to remove another animal from the wild. Additionally - television has changed the world. We're able to see much more on the Discovery Channel, National Geographic & Animal Planet, than we could ever have seen years ago. Most of these Zoos were created pre-television/pre-any of those brands and without which, we probably wouldn't have those brands.
I'm curious what you guys think of these programs by Sea World/Busch Gardens:
I mean... if they don't care, why invest so much money into a side project to aid in conservation and education?
I find many of these documentaries interesting... but they usually always have an underlying agenda - and it's usually not to "educate," but to indoctrinate and encourage you to boycott big business or believe in misleading "facts." Knowing these things, I still enjoy the networks I mentioned above, because of my love for animals/nature.
Last edited by KevinVA; 08-01-2013 at 02:48 PM.
08-01-2013, 03:02 PM #13
08-01-2013, 03:03 PM #14
Some animals thrive in captivity and exibit normal behaviours observed in the wild, normal breeding without intervention, do not exhibit repetitive stress behaviours, and can be adequately be fed in a captive environment that offers stimulation and behavioural enrichment. E.g. safari parks that have meerkat colonies.
Some animals cannot thrive in the inadequate conditions we provide. E.g. orcas. These are the ones I would not support. Orcas in the wild live in extended family pods of between five and 30 individuals. Occasionally, pods of 40+ have been found. They are highly emotional animals, incredibly strong bonds and have complex communication systems (communication patterns which differ vastly between orcas from other geographical locations). Science is only just starting to uncover the complexity of this species and have indications of language characteristics and cultures between geographical groups. We simply cannot provide conditions to support this species. It is for that reason that I do not believe there is any justification for them being held captive.
A zoo is one thing (and I do not believe that we should be keeping certain animals in zoos, as above), but a circus with performing animals (which is essentially what SeaWorld is) is completely different, especially when they lie to the public and cover up failings within their company.
08-01-2013, 03:04 PM #15
08-01-2013, 03:07 PM #16
Li0ns and many 0ther predat0rs teach their 0ffspring t0 hunt, n0 d0ubt, but I have n0t seen f00tage 0f them catching a prey animal, intenti0nally releasing it, and basically say"0K jr, n0w y0u d0 it just like I sh0wed y0u". When an 0rca is hungry it will hunt and kill and eat with all the same pr0ficiency as a li0n 0r tiger 0r bear , 0h My- L0L- but when the li0n teaches it's y0ung it says "watch h0w I d0 this, s0 y0u can j0in the hunt next time" then it chases the prey and kills it. It d0esn't let it l00se f0r the kid t0 give it a g0. An 0rca em-l0ys vari0us meth0ds- kind 0f like "I can sit here and wait 0r I can thr0w r0cks and f0rce a reacti0n" a li0n will sit there until the 0pp0rtunity presents itself. big difference in behavi0rs. )rcas quite visibly "enj0y" the hunt, li0ns simply have t0 hunt.When in d0ubt read it until it makes sense, then read it again!
08-01-2013, 03:20 PM #17
No one yet knows why they do this or what purpose it serves. Taking pleasure in the thrill of the hunt - an act of sadistic celebration - is a possibility. They're quite similar to us in a way!
Viewer discretion advised!
Last edited by Knightia; 08-01-2013 at 03:27 PM.
08-01-2013, 04:44 PM #18
Every predator in the wild "has" to hunt - they just have varying ways of going about it. Wolves hunt in packs (and will give chase for very long distances, if need be, attempting to lure animals into more compromising positions, such as removing animals from their herd). Lionesses hunt in teams (but will give up far more quickly and choose something more suitable). Alligators/Crocodiles lie in wait for unaware passerbys, by themselves... Cheetahs hunt solo and rely on their speed to kill smaller animals. Orcas hunt in packs, much like wolves, and work together to lure animals into compromising position, such as open water, where they'd have little defense, or in the middle of the pack, where there's no escape.
These are just methods of hunting. Some are seemingly more complex than others, but let's not pretend it's something that it's not. Great White Sharks chase seals from below the surface of the water so that they end up jumping into the air and easier to catch... is that a mark of genius in a fish?
As for Sea World... I see it more as a zoo, than a "circus." They house these animals in eco-friendly habitats (just as zoos do), while also using some of the animals to teach others what they're capable of - whales, dolphins, sea lions, seals (without harming or forcing them to). I don't see anything wrong with this and I also see that the animals being used find it playful, much as a dog would enjoy doing tricks for treats or playing with new toys. It raises awareness and stimulates the people's minds, who are watching these acts, to become more sympathetic and thoughtful toward these animals. Sea World also takes part in conservation and contributes to science... Do circuses?
I think it's arguable that the living conditions for these whales isn't satisfactory, but it's also arguable that these animals are living much easier/happier lives in captivity, due to the care, attention, easy feeding, exercise they receive. Until you can speak Orca, I guess we'll never know. Have you asked your dog or cat if they're happy?
08-01-2013, 05:33 PM #19
As an aside, the folded-over/collapsed dorsal fin in Orcas has been found in the wild, in addition to captivity. There are numerous reasons that this could happen - "depression" not being one of them.
Here's a scientific research paper on it: http://www.scribd.com/doc/119426027/...lexandra-Evans
Here are findings from studying wild Orcas off the coast of New Zealand: http://www.aquaticmammalsjournal.org...-02_Visser.pdf
08-01-2013, 07:07 PM #20