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Results 21 to 30 of 46
  1. #21

    Join Date
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

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    I'll actually be going to a store that has 6500K CFLs in a bit here. And I asked this in my tank's journal but didn't get much of a response so I'm asking here for different visibility...

    With my plants and tank, would it be better to switch from a 14watt 5000K to a 13watt 6500K? Or should I bump it up to a 23watt 6500K? I'm planning on getting some black craft mesh to cover the area where the filter is now to provide a shadier spot for low-light plants and my fish to go to get out of the light, and I'll be switching the lights when I change filters and completely rescape the tank, so that I can put the high-light plants directly under the light. With the way I'll be setting up the filter, floating plants should drift over to the shaded side as well, to provide even more shading.
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  2. #22

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    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyby Stardancer View Post
    I'll actually be going to a store that has 6500K CFLs in a bit here. And I asked this in my tank's journal but didn't get much of a response so I'm asking here for different visibility...

    With my plants and tank, would it be better to switch from a 14watt 5000K to a 13watt 6500K? Or should I bump it up to a 23watt 6500K? I'm planning on getting some black craft mesh to cover the area where the filter is now to provide a shadier spot for low-light plants and my fish to go to get out of the light, and I'll be switching the lights when I change filters and completely rescape the tank, so that I can put the high-light plants directly under the light. With the way I'll be setting up the filter, floating plants should drift over to the shaded side as well, to provide even more shading.
    The 6500K tubes/bulbs are considered better for plants because they provide not only the red and blue but also green wavelengths. A study determined that plants grew best (which was assessed by the amount of oxygen they produced, which of course is due to photosynthesis, so the more oxygen the more photosynthesis) under 6000K to 7000K spectrum. Diana Walstad suggests that this is likely due to the increased intensity of this light, rather than the green itself. Tubes and bulbs with this Kelvin rating do put out more light, so this seems logical.

    You are asking with respect to a 5 gallon tank, with I assume one socket? I would get the 13w CFL bulb with a 6500K rating. I use the GE brand, but there are others that are probably just as good. I like the GE Daylight 6500K tubes as well. I have two 10w GE Daylight CFL bulbs over my 10g and 20g and the plants thrive. You might try the 23w, but that might be too much over a 5g, so I think the 13w would be better. There will not likely be sufficient nutrients (esp CO2) to balance 23w, but this is a surmise.

    Byron.

  3. #23

    Join Date
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

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    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by kermit58 View Post
    The 6500K tubes/bulbs are considered better for plants because they provide not only the red and blue but also green wavelengths. A study determined that plants grew best (which was assessed by the amount of oxygen they produced, which of course is due to photosynthesis, so the more oxygen the more photosynthesis) under 6000K to 7000K spectrum. Diana Walstad suggests that this is likely due to the increased intensity of this light, rather than the green itself. Tubes and bulbs with this Kelvin rating do put out more light, so this seems logical.

    You are asking with respect to a 5 gallon tank, with I assume one socket? I would get the 13w CFL bulb with a 6500K rating. I use the GE brand, but there are others that are probably just as good. I like the GE Daylight 6500K tubes as well. I have two 10w GE Daylight CFL bulbs over my 10g and 20g and the plants thrive. You might try the 23w, but that might be too much over a 5g, so I think the 13w would be better. There will not likely be sufficient nutrients (esp CO2) to balance 23w, but this is a surmise.

    Byron.
    Yes, it's for the 5 gallon tank, and I have liquid booster to add for CO2, as well as ferts. I have enough nitrogen in the tank that I just can't seem to get rid of. Between what is being produced by what's in the tank, and what gets added in during the water changes, I just can't seem to make a real dent in the nitrate levels (not to mention it's running with low-level ammonia/ammonium). And while I've started noticing what may be new growth on the plants... The fact that they aren't making a dent in the nitrates concerns me. I need them to keep those low enough to be safe for the fish, especially since I can't lower them with water changes.

    The bulbs I was able to find are from a company called Sylvania, from their micro-mini CFL line. I bought one package of each wattage level.
    Last edited by Flyby Stardancer; 08-08-2013 at 02:22 AM.
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  4. #24

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    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyby Stardancer View Post
    Yes, it's for the 5 gallon tank, and I have liquid booster to add for CO2, as well as ferts. I have enough nitrogen in the tank that I just can't seem to get rid of. Between what is being produced by what's in the tank, and what gets added in during the water changes, I just can't seem to make a real dent in the nitrate levels (not to mention it's running with low-level ammonia/ammonium). And while I've started noticing what may be new growth on the plants... The fact that they aren't making a dent in the nitrates concerns me. I need them to keep those low enough to be safe for the fish, especially since I can't lower them with water changes.

    The bulbs I was able to find are from a company called Sylvania, from their micro-mini CFL line. I bought one package of each wattage level.
    Bulbs will be fine I'm sure.

    Now to those nitrates. Checking some of your other threads, ione mentioned nitrates of 40ppm in the tap water; is this accurate? And are nitrates 40ppm in this 5g tank? Earlier in this thread 5ppm was mentioned.

    If you really have nitrates of 40ppm in the tap water, this should be dealt with. There are methods, and a friend of mine (who is also a member) has this same issue and has solved it. I will PM him and see if he can comment, if you do confirm tap is 40ppm. I can appreciate that you do not want fish in this water, neither would I.

    Byron.

  5. #25

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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

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    0 Not allowed!
    Last time I tested, it was. I still haven't tested the sample I took last week... Just been too busy (I didn't even get a chance to test the sample I took from the 5 gal this morning!).

    I talked to the water company about it... Levels are still below the federal limit, and as long as they're below the federal limit, they don't give fish poop about it. I don't have the money for a R/O unit, and switching to bottled would be a huge hassle (not to mention that the water store I get my bottled water from is a fair distance from my house. Doable for just drinking water, but for water changes it's just too much). Those seem to be the two main solutions thrown out there for high nitrates in the tap.

    ETA: When I say 40, I should say 40-80. I can't distinguish between the two colors on the color card, much less try to match my test results to one or the other.
    Last edited by Flyby Stardancer; 08-08-2013 at 09:44 PM.
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  6. #26

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyby Stardancer View Post
    Last time I tested, it was. I still haven't tested the sample I took last week... Just been too busy (I didn't even get a chance to test the sample I took from the 5 gal this morning!).

    I talked to the water company about it... Levels are still below the federal limit, and as long as they're below the federal limit, they don't give fish poop about it. I don't have the money for a R/O unit, and switching to bottled would be a huge hassle (not to mention that the water store I get my bottled water from is a fair distance from my house. Doable for just drinking water, but for water changes it's just too much). Those seem to be the two main solutions thrown out there for high nitrates in the tap.

    ETA: When I say 40, I should say 40-80. I can't distinguish between the two colors on the color card, much less try to match my test results to one or the other.
    There are other methods. I will leave that for my friend when he stops by here.

    Plants are often thought of as needing nitrate, but this thinking is a bit flawed. Nitrogen is needed, but most aquatic plants prefer it as ammonium. They will grab the ammonia produced by the fish and other sources and are so fast at this that they actually out-compete bacteria. Only when ammonium (ammonia) is no longer available, or is insufficient to balance other nutrients, will plants then turn to nitrate. And actually, there is some evidence that they will first use nitrite, and nitrate last. The reason is that in order to use nitrite or nitrate, they have to first change it back to ammonium, and this takes more energy. It is a last resort for plants. Which is why it takes a fairly heavily-planted tank to effectively deal with high nitrates.

    Those who run high-tech planted tanks obviously have to supply nitrogen, and nitrates is generally safer for the fish than adding ammonia or nitrite. Here the plants do use the nitrate, since it is their only source of nitrogen and when everything else is available (high light, CO2, other minerals) and nitrogen is the limiting factor, it is worth the extra energy to convert it.

    In low tech planted tanks, nitrate is usually very low, less than 10 ppm, and frequently zero. This is because the plants are taking up most of the ammonia, so little is left for bacteria/archaea to change into nitrite and then nitrate. But when the nitrates are being introduced in the water, we are in a different situation.

    Byron.
    Last edited by Byron; 08-08-2013 at 11:32 PM.

  7. #27

    Join Date
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

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    0 Not allowed!
    If plants love ammonia/ammonium so much, why do I constantly have a low-level reading in my pretty-well planted tank? (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really and truly puzzled.)

    And I've heard that plants prefer ammonium... I've also heard that they prefer nitrate and refuse to use nitrite at all. I honestly have no idea, and as long as they're absorbing the nitrogen from the water I could care less which form they prefer. I tried being a low-tech planted tank... And that didn't work out. I would still like to keep the tech as low as possible, but adding liquid supplements I can do.

    In the past few days, I've also started to notice hair algae in the tank. Not surprising given the ammonia and nitrate, but still frustrating. So far it only seems to be on the filter baffle, so I've been trying to keep it trimmed down until I can swap out filters and re-scape the tank.
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  8. #28

    Join Date
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

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    0 Not allowed!
    Here is a new link to the water parameters spreadsheet, because apparently Google Drive replaced the old one with a new sheet somehow, and changed the settings. I don't know what the frag is going on with it. This tank is the second page.
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  9. #29

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    0 Not allowed!
    If plants love ammonia/ammonium so much, why do I constantly have a low-level reading in my pretty-well planted tank? (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really and truly puzzled.)
    On the ammonia...are you saying it is above zero too? What number? And, what is the pH (for reference)? We can look into this ammonia, though I may not be so much help, as I have never had this problem in all my years but others do raise it.

    Fast-growing plants can be an ammonia sink. It is amazing how much they can take up, both as a nutrient and as a toxin. Tom Barr once told me when I asked the question that it is unlikely the ammonia in a fish tank would ever be above what the plants could handle. This of course assumes everything is balanced. Too many fish, overfeeding to excess, etc can disrupt this and then the plants just can't handle things. I'm not suggesting that is the case here, only pointing out something.

    And I've heard that plants prefer ammonium... I've also heard that they prefer nitrate and refuse to use nitrite at all. I honestly have no idea, and as long as they're absorbing the nitrogen from the water I could care less which form they prefer. I tried being a low-tech planted tank... And that didn't work out. I would still like to keep the tech as low as possible, but adding liquid supplements I can do.
    The only true scientific studies on this ammonia/nitrite/nitrate issue that I know of are referenced in Walstad's book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. The nitrite is just her proposition based upon a single study, but the results did clearly show that the plants in the study first used all the ammonium, then they turned to nitrite, and last to nitrate. She also provides a list (not exclusive by any means) of some aquarium plants that prefer ammonium, and some that prefer nitrate, and this comes from further scientific testing.

    I only have low-tech or what I like to call natural planted tanks. I dose with a comprehensive supplement, but never CO2. I insist on moderate lighting for the sake of the fish, so my selected plants have to manage with this, and I then add the nutrients via fertilizer to balance the light and natural CO2.

    In the past few days, I've also started to notice hair algae in the tank. Not surprising given the ammonia and nitrate, but still frustrating. So far it only seems to be on the filter baffle, so I've been trying to keep it trimmed down until I can swap out filters and re-scape the tank.
    Hair algae, or brush algae? The latter is very common on filter spray bars, intake tubes, etc, likely due to the water movement.

    Byron.

  10. #30

    Join Date
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

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    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by kermit58 View Post
    On the ammonia...are you saying it is above zero too? What number? And, what is the pH (for reference)? We can look into this ammonia, though I may not be so much help, as I have never had this problem in all my years but others do raise it.
    I gave a link in the post between the one you replied to and your reply. It has the entire water parameter history of this tank, since I first set it up, through cycling, and since. It has pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, both forms of hardness, and temperature, plus other miscellaneous notes. I also started coloring the background, to show where water changes half-reset the parameters, and which tests come from the 'same' water.

    Fast-growing plants can be an ammonia sink. It is amazing how much they can take up, both as a nutrient and as a toxin. Tom Barr once told me when I asked the question that it is unlikely the ammonia in a fish tank would ever be above what the plants could handle. This of course assumes everything is balanced. Too many fish, overfeeding to excess, etc can disrupt this and then the plants just can't handle things. I'm not suggesting that is the case here, only pointing out something.
    It's very interesting. Though for my tank... Something is not in balance, but I have no idea what. Overfeeding shouldn't be a big problem because it rarely happens. Most of the time when my fish misses a pellet, I'm able to siphon it out. Now, the frozen food are more likely to go uneaten, especially the frozen brine shrimp. They just sometimes disintegrate and he doesn't get all of the pieces, and because the gravel substrate is too light to properly vacuum the way gravel is supposed to be, it does become a nitrogen source.

    The only true scientific studies on this ammonia/nitrite/nitrate issue that I know of are referenced in Walstad's book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. The nitrite is just her proposition based upon a single study, but the results did clearly show that the plants in the study first used all the ammonium, then they turned to nitrite, and last to nitrate. She also provides a list (not exclusive by any means) of some aquarium plants that prefer ammonium, and some that prefer nitrate, and this comes from further scientific testing.

    I only have low-tech or what I like to call natural planted tanks. I dose with a comprehensive supplement, but never CO2. I insist on moderate lighting for the sake of the fish, so my selected plants have to manage with this, and I then add the nutrients via fertilizer to balance the light and natural CO2.
    Are you just calling them NPTs or do they have a dirt base? My understanding was that a 'true' NPT has a layer of sifted dirt in the substrate. That's why I've been calling mine just a 'planted tank', even though I read up on NPTs and semi-modeled my set up on them. I don't have access to Walstad's book, though.

    Hair algae, or brush algae? The latter is very common on filter spray bars, intake tubes, etc, likely due to the water movement.

    Byron.
    It could be brush algae. I have a hard time telling the difference, though my understanding is that hair algae tends to be longer and wispier, which is what this algae looks like.
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

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