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Results 11 to 20 of 46
  1. #11

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    You have a mix of low light (Anubias, Java Fern, crypts to some extent) and high light (Hygrophila,
    Rotala) requirement plants. In a small aquarium this is not a good mix, as your light is going to be fairly consistent. Floating plants will help the low-light plants as appears to be happening here. But your high-light plants will not be receiving what they need. But there is more.

    The nutrients must be in balance with the plants. The "hard water" will contain the hard minerals like calcium, magnesium, but probably not sufficient of the trace. Plants need 17 nutrients in a fairly specific relationship. Substrates like Eco-complete are no help here. Substrate-rooted plants that are heavier feeders like Echinodorus may or may not benefit; my experience with these showed no better growth (all else being the same) than plain sand and gravel substrate tanks. In addition to this, there is the fact that some nutrients are only taken up via the leaves; potassium, nitrogen (as ammonium), oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, and some others. A liquid complete fertilizer is usually required to ensure everything is being provided.

    Which leaves the carbon. With the light you have, this is not necessary. Your other nutrients are probably lacking somewhat, so I would suggest a complete liquid like Flourish Comprehensive Supplement or FlorinMulti. The majority of carbon (when not being added via diffusion) comes from the breakdown of organics in the substrate, and it is considerably higher than many realize.

    I don't know why you are on a "siesta" light schedule, but I would not recommend this. Especially if there are fish in the tank, as this is not natural and does affect their physiology.

    Hope this is of some help. Feel free to ask if anything needs explaining further.

    Byron.

  2. #12

    Join Date
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by kermit58 View Post
    You have a mix of low light (Anubias, Java Fern, crypts to some extent) and high light (Hygrophila,
    Rotala) requirement plants. In a small aquarium this is not a good mix, as your light is going to be fairly consistent. Floating plants will help the low-light plants as appears to be happening here. But your high-light plants will not be receiving what they need. But there is more.
    For one thing, my stems and floaters came from cuttings from very helpful others' tanks. The availability of stems in my area absolutely sucks. The only low-light stem I can find in stores is Anacharis, which would melt and die at the temps my tanks are at (my fish naturally need warmer water, and it's summer so the water is often rising to the high end of what my fish can handle thanks to a lack of AC in the house). I was told by those whom I got the plants from that they would do fine in my tanks, even if the Rotala would lose some of its red coloring.

    The nutrients must be in balance with the plants. The "hard water" will contain the hard minerals like calcium, magnesium, but probably not sufficient of the trace. Plants need 17 nutrients in a fairly specific relationship. Substrates like Eco-complete are no help here. Substrate-rooted plants that are heavier feeders like Echinodorus may or may not benefit; my experience with these showed no better growth (all else being the same) than plain sand and gravel substrate tanks. In addition to this, there is the fact that some nutrients are only taken up via the leaves; potassium, nitrogen (as ammonium), oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, and some others. A liquid complete fertilizer is usually required to ensure everything is being provided.

    Which leaves the carbon. With the light you have, this is not necessary. Your other nutrients are probably lacking somewhat, so I would suggest a complete liquid like Flourish Comprehensive Supplement or FlorinMulti. The majority of carbon (when not being added via diffusion) comes from the breakdown of organics in the substrate, and it is considerably higher than many realize.
    Honestly, there is so much conflicting information out there that it's hard to know what to believe or which advice to follow.

    I don't know why you are on a "siesta" light schedule, but I would not recommend this. Especially if there are fish in the tank, as this is not natural and does affect their physiology.
    I chose a siesta schedule because I wasn't adding any CO2, and it was based off of research I had done into the the Walstad method years ago when I last had my tank set up. Supposedly it mimics the area getting shaded during the day (whether by taller plants/structures, or by thunderstorms, or whatever), as well as allows CO2 levels to build up again to give plants the competitive edge over algae. As a little side bonus to me, the timing ended up being a good time to perform water changes, when I wasn't disturbing the light pattern when I removed the lid to be able to get the gravel vac into the tank, but wasn't so early that I would be a zombie, or so late that I would forget what was happening.
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  3. #13

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    For one thing, my stems and floaters came from cuttings from very helpful others' tanks. The availability of stems in my area absolutely sucks. The only low-light stem I can find in stores is Anacharis, which would melt and die at the temps my tanks are at (my fish naturally need warmer water, and it's summer so the water is often rising to the high end of what my fish can handle thanks to a lack of AC in the house). I was told by those whom I got the plants from that they would do fine in my tanks, even if the Rotala would lose some of its red coloring.
    I've no idea what the light level and spectrum was in these other members' tanks, but I can say that stem plants generally need more light because they are faster growing. Plants can only photosynthesize when they have sufficient light intensity, and provided all nutrients are available. As soon as any one of these factors is missing, photosynthesis slows proportionally and may stop altogether. I have tried many species of plants over the years, and I stay with those that manage under the moderate (some would call it low) light intensity I provide, and I then work to balance that with the nutrients. I agree on the temperature with Anacharis. One good stem plant I have found that does well under moderate light is Brazilian Pennywort, Hydrocotyl leucocephala. This is about the only one I can keep growing, and I've tried most over the years, and more than once.

    Red leaf plants need even more light than green leaf; the leaf is red because the plant is reflecting more red light. And as red is crucial to photosynthesis, along with blue and green, the light has to be more intense.

    Honestly, there is so much conflicting information out there that it's hard to know what to believe or which advice to follow.
    I certainly empathize with this. I have spent the better part of the last four years doing research and then experimenting. I'll attach a photo of my 70g flooded Amazon forest tank to show what does work simply. [Edit: Well, can't upload photos, will have to figure out how to do this. Sorry.]

    I chose a siesta schedule because I wasn't adding any CO2, and it was based off of research I had done into the the Walstad method years ago when I last had my tank set up. Supposedly it mimics the area getting shaded during the day (whether by taller plants/structures, or by thunderstorms, or whatever), as well as allows CO2 levels to build up again to give plants the competitive edge over algae. As a little side bonus to me, the timing ended up being a good time to perform water changes, when I wasn't disturbing the light pattern when I removed the lid to be able to get the gravel vac into the tank, but wasn't so early that I would be a zombie, or so late that I would forget what was happening.
    This method is bandied about a bit, but I tend to agree with Tom Barr who told me that it was actually pointless. One is better to find the duration at which CO2 is being depleted and balance the light with that. In my case, with no added CO2 by any method in any of my tanks, I have worked this out to 8 hours of tank lighting per day. In the summer I keep the windows heavily draped (I have a fish room so this is easy to achieve) because the additional duration and inte4nsity of daylight in the summer was sufficient to throw off the balance, and brush algae took hold. Since I've been doing this, it is no longer an issue in the summer.

    The effect of light on/off more than once every 24 hours on fish is slowly being documented. Believe me, it does impact their internal homeostasis. Plants are able to adjust to this easily, or appear to be. But in my tanks it is the fish that come first, and the plants have to make do.

    Byron.
    Last edited by Byron; 07-31-2013 at 08:06 PM.

  4. #14

    Join Date
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by kermit58 View Post
    I've no idea what the light level and spectrum was in these other members' tanks, but I can say that stem plants generally need more light because they are faster growing. Plants can only photosynthesize when they have sufficient light intensity, and provided all nutrients are available. As soon as any one of these factors is missing, photosynthesis slows proportionally and may stop altogether. I have tried many species of plants over the years, and I stay with those that manage under the moderate (some would call it low) light intensity I provide, and I then work to balance that with the nutrients. I agree on the temperature with Anacharis. One good stem plant I have found that does well under moderate light is Brazilian Pennywort, Hydrocotyl leucocephala. This is about the only one I can keep growing, and I've tried most over the years, and more than once.
    The friend I got the first of the stems from didn't know what plant it was, or what her lighting was beyond 'grow lights', so how much light they were getting in her tanks is unknown at best. And again, I'm limited in what I can get. Either I buy out of those snail-free tubes at Petco/Petsmart (which is where I got the Anubias, java ferns, and Crypts), or I go to an LFS that has even less variety available and plant tanks where everything is COATED in algae.

    Red leaf plants need even more light than green leaf; the leaf is red because the plant is reflecting more red light. And as red is crucial to photosynthesis, along with blue and green, the light has to be more intense.
    My understanding is that red-leafed plants under sub-optimal lighting will still photosynthesize (perhaps not as much, but still enough to grow), but will be green instead.

    I certainly empathize with this. I have spent the better part of the last four years doing research and then experimenting. I'll attach a photo of my 70g flooded Amazon forest tank to show what does work simply. [Edit: Well, can't upload photos, will have to figure out how to do this. Sorry.]
    I can understand with the photos. I can't upload them directly to AC. I have to upload mine to my photobucket account, and then link them.

    And I know that in general, I'd rather stick with Asian plants, since my taste in fish leans towards Asian fish as well. (Bettas, goldfish... Heh.)

    This method is bandied about a bit, but I tend to agree with Tom Barr who told me that it was actually pointless. One is better to find the duration at which CO2 is being depleted and balance the light with that. In my case, with no added CO2 by any method in any of my tanks, I have worked this out to 8 hours of tank lighting per day. In the summer I keep the windows heavily draped (I have a fish room so this is easy to achieve) because the additional duration and inte4nsity of daylight in the summer was sufficient to throw off the balance, and brush algae took hold. Since I've been doing this, it is no longer an issue in the summer.
    The room that the fish are currently in has no windows leading directly outside. At best, there is indirect light that has to come through three sets of windows before it reaches the room, so you really only get artificial light at all. So far the only algae issues I've had are with diatoms, which are supposed to be common in new tanks anyways, no matter what else is going on.

    The effect of light on/off more than once every 24 hours on fish is slowly being documented. Believe me, it does impact their internal homeostasis. Plants are able to adjust to this easily, or appear to be. But in my tanks it is the fish that come first, and the plants have to make do.
    I've removed the break in one tank. I have to go more slowly with the other one. I've heard of crypts melting at sudden drastic changes in light, and I do not need crypt melt on top of the other issues I'm having with the tank.
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  5. #15

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    My understanding is that red-leafed plants under sub-optimal lighting will still photosynthesize (perhaps not as much, but still enough to grow), but will be green instead.
    True, provided sufficient light is available. Some plants develop dark green (olive green) leaves rather than red in less light--I have had some Echinodorus species do this, and Cryptocoryne too) while other plants just fall apart. Stem plants tend more to the latter, but there are often exceptions.

    The room that the fish are currently in has no windows leading directly outside. At best, there is indirect light that has to come through three sets of windows before it reaches the room, so you really only get artificial light at all. So far the only algae issues I've had are with diatoms, which are supposed to be common in new tanks anyways, no matter what else is going on.
    My point here was simply that the minimal change in light can be significant; not suggesting you have daylight issues. And yes, algae is a good guide. You can increase the light duration provided algae does not begin to increase as this is a sign the plants are no longer able to out-compete the algae; and similarly if algae is a problem, decrease the light in increments. Of course, other factors play into this too. In my 90g I can only fertilizer Flourish Comprehensive once a week, or algae on the leaves immediately begins spreading; yet my other tanks get two doses weekly with no problems, and the same light and plants. Each tank can have quite a different biology.

    Yes, diatoms is [or should that be "are"??] common within the first 2-3 months because the tank's biological system is in fluctuation.

    I've removed the break in one tank. I have to go more slowly with the other one. I've heard of crypts melting at sudden drastic changes in light, and I do not need crypt melt on top of the other issues I'm having with the tank.
    Yes, any change in the parameters, light, substrate, etc can often trigger crypt melt; some species withstand this better than others. I have also had the same plants react to one factor, yet not even with a move to another tank. Here again, much plays into this.

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area, CA
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by kermit58 View Post
    True, provided sufficient light is available. Some plants develop dark green (olive green) leaves rather than red in less light--I have had some Echinodorus species do this, and Cryptocoryne too) while other plants just fall apart. Stem plants tend more to the latter, but there are often exceptions.
    Well, we'll have to see which it is for these ones...

    My point here was simply that the minimal change in light can be significant; not suggesting you have daylight issues. And yes, algae is a good guide. You can increase the light duration provided algae does not begin to increase as this is a sign the plants are no longer able to out-compete the algae; and similarly if algae is a problem, decrease the light in increments. Of course, other factors play into this too. In my 90g I can only fertilizer Flourish Comprehensive once a week, or algae on the leaves immediately begins spreading; yet my other tanks get two doses weekly with no problems, and the same light and plants. Each tank can have quite a different biology.
    So far I'm not having problems with other types of algae... They're only getting 8-9 hours (depending on the tank) of light a day.

    Yes, diatoms is [or should that be "are"??] common within the first 2-3 months because the tank's biological system is in fluctuation.
    Diatoms are such a pain in the butt...

    Yes, any change in the parameters, light, substrate, etc can often trigger crypt melt; some species withstand this better than others. I have also had the same plants react to one factor, yet not even with a move to another tank. Here again, much plays into this.
    Well, these crypts withstood being planted into my tank with some pretty bad root damage (I tried to be careful, but it was like loosening the roots on a severely-rootbound flower from the store lol)... I'm seeing a little edge of melt on one leaf, but so far not bad. I have some Flourish comprehensive, and I'll add a 1/4 dose with the next water change, and slowly up that every week. I'm going to slowly up the amounts until I find where the tank stabilizes at something healthy for the fish.

    And the store didn't have any root tabs, only the liquid ferts. :/

    And to think this was supposed to be a simple low-tech tank...
    1. 2. (No Picture)
    1: Planted Betta Tank 1, Grimsby (male betta)
    2: Planted Betta Tank 2
    3: Eclipse QT Tank

  7. Default


    0 Not allowed!
    As one of those people who sent you plants, hey they were free and an experiment (LOL, I was trying to help)...but really, the stems might not grow much. A little bit of liquit ferts will help - I find that my stem plants really benefit from nutrients in the water column, as their roots really don't get very big. I keep a contingent of rotala in a low to medium light environment, and they do OK, they just aren't reddish.

    It seems like low maintenance setups begin that way and swiftly become a bit more involved than you hoped. I think it takes real zenlike knowledge and restraint to keep things really simple. It's an acquired skill, maybe. Goodness knows I don't have it, however!

    But, that said, I'm sorry if I inadventently made things more complicated for you. That was not my intent.
    Beth
    1 - 55 gallon planted community
    3 - 10 to 20 gallon planted betta tanks
    My advice: slow down, think, and be willing to learn. Then you'll be fine, no matter what.

  8. #18

    Join Date
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    It's okay. :) Honestly, things were unstable even without the plants from you, and your plants made boy fish feel a lot more comfortable in his home. :) He loves the leaves of the angustofilia.

  9. #19

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Plants started pearling today! 5 drops CO2, 2 drops ferts. :) Will continue monitoring nitrogen levels, and stop upping the ferts and CO2 when there's enough for processing the nitrogen in the system.

  10. #20

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
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    【ツ】 - korith first fish for your community tank! - Cyberra a friend for your other neon ;) - Cyberra tetra #3 ;) - Cyberra looks like you like neons.... i hope - genocidex 
    because sometimes they school - genocidex a good school of neons is 6 minimal !!!!! - genocidex for playing along, gift of my choice!!!! - genocidex These seem to be quite popular... - ~firefly~ ...so here's another one... - ~firefly~ 
    ...and for luck, one more. - ~firefly~ 
    Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Flyby Stardancer 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Added 6 drops of CO2 booster yesterday, no pearling. Went back to 5 drops today and added more ferts. Only 2 drops again, but then I saw hair algae on my filter baffle so I added a third. No pearling yet.

    I'm not really surprised to see the algae, not with the issues I've been having with ammonia and nitrates.

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