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  1. Default Looking ahead to when my new 29G is cycled... super hard water but I want neon tetras


    0 Not allowed!
    Hi, I've been reading for awhile, trying to learn what to do with my first tank. We had fish when I was a little kid, but otherwise this is my first time actually doing the work myself. I finally took the *ahem* plunge and set up a brand-new tank last weekend.

    So I've spent the last week arguing with my ammonia levels, trying to get my fishless cycle started, and I've finally got it sitting at 4ppm. In order not to lose my mind, I am starting to look ahead to stocking the tank (I know this could still be a month away). I have a 29G tank with the HOB filter that came in the kit (a Penguin Bio-Wheel 200) plus an airstone, a bunch of plastic plants, and a cork-bark "log" which I'm struggling to keep from floating, but that's another story. I live near the mountains and our municipal water is from a glacier- and spring-fed river. Needless to say the GH and KH are off the charts, and it's very alkaline (pH seems to be just under 8.5).

    I really want neon tetras.

    Yes, it's silly (I want them because we had them when I was a little kid) and no, this isn't going to work very well with my water. So my first question is, how can I bring the hardness down without spending a fortune on RO water? I've heard peat is very effective. Is there a peat product you could recommend?

    Second question is friends for the tetras, assuming I can make the water hospitable. My kid really wants an African dwarf frog, but I'm sort of afraid it'll eat the tetras. We also think Tequila Sunrise guppies are very pretty. And my dad recommended I get an algae-eater, to help de-gunk the tank a bit.

    As a beginner, my focus would be on relatively hardy, yet cool-looking fish. I would really appreciate your suggestions. I do want to stick with one tank for now until I know what the heck I'm doing, at least a little bit. Thanks!!

  2. #2

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    De-gunking a tank is your job, not a fish'.

    Your water would work for guppies, neons are adaptable but this is stretching it considerably. In my experience peat doesn't do that much if you have a lot of buffering capacity.

    How about rain water?

    You don't have to spend a fortune on RO water. An RO unit can be had for around $80 and the waste water can be used for all sorts of other things.

  3. #3

    Join Date
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    Jacksonville, FL
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    Merry Christmas - Cliff Merry Xmas You Filthy Animal!! - Hardy85 Merry Christmas buddy! - KevinVA Merry Christmas! - Slaphppy7 Merry Christmas Sandz! - Taurus 
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    Happy Birthday!  Enjoy! - jeffs99dime I'll drink to that! - steeler1 Enjoy! - Hardy85 This one's on me... - Slaphppy7 Here's to one crummy Superbowl, lol! - Slaphppy7 
    T.G.I.F.! - Slaphppy7 Here's to good friends, and new fish! - Slaphppy7 T.G.I.F.! - Slaphppy7 Happy Drink Like a Viking Friday! - KevinVA Happy Easter! - Slaphppy7 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Alright first off GOOD JOB on the fishless cycle! I assume also you have a heater keeping the tank temp up a bit? If not add one, it will go faster.

    Second you dont have to worry about ph or hardness when it comes to neons, I would however recommend Cardinal tetra because they are hardier and are a bit bigger so they show up nicely.

    Any guppy will be fine as well. They are peaceful community species that will perform nicely in anything over 5gallons.

    On the pleco (sucker fish)... you dont need anything in a new tank to take care of alage. They dont sustain their diet on algae. In fact they are one of the few fish in the world that have a large part of their diet in consuming wood. They will eat algae but you shouldnt buy them for function as your new tank will never produce enough algae to sustain it over time.

    You have a good ammount of space in that tank, and being you want color and splash I would look into the fish they provide and see how you would like to stock the tank overall.

    I would personally stock a tank like yours like this:

    15 Cardinal Tetra
    5 All male guppys
    1 Bolivian Ram
    1 Honey gourami
    10 Schwartz Corriadora (or whatever cory of your like)
    FW: 1 45gal, 1 40gal, 3 10gal, 3 30gal all community tanks of different species
    Sw: 1 55gal, 1 30gal show, 1 29gal show, 1 20gal and 2 10's

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Merry Christmas - Cliff Merry Xmas You Filthy Animal!! - Hardy85 Merry Christmas buddy! - KevinVA Merry Christmas! - Slaphppy7 Merry Christmas Sandz! - Taurus 
    Happy birthday buddy! - KevinVA Happy B-day!! - steeler1 Happy Bday bud!!! - Hardy85 Have a little cake and ..... - fishmommie .... beer.  Hope it was a good one. - fishmommie 
    Happy Birthday!  Enjoy! - jeffs99dime I'll drink to that! - steeler1 Enjoy! - Hardy85 This one's on me... - Slaphppy7 Here's to one crummy Superbowl, lol! - Slaphppy7 
    T.G.I.F.! - Slaphppy7 Here's to good friends, and new fish! - Slaphppy7 T.G.I.F.! - Slaphppy7 Happy Drink Like a Viking Friday! - KevinVA Happy Easter! - Slaphppy7 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    @Talldutchie - All fish are easily addaptable and considering anything but breeding, ph and hardness should have little effect on the fishes overall viability. A simple dip or drip aclimation is sufficient if shipped and if at the store, they are on similar water supply and already adapt to the local conditions for the most part. The potential for ph swings and miscalculations by overcomplicating the ability to do water changes is a huge issue. Also with the use of rain water, in municipal areas, its got the ability to collect a lot of nasty things that can poison the fish tank. It is much easier and stable to use tap water treated with a chlorine and chloromine removing agent like Prime.
    FW: 1 45gal, 1 40gal, 3 10gal, 3 30gal all community tanks of different species
    Sw: 1 55gal, 1 30gal show, 1 29gal show, 1 20gal and 2 10's

  5. #5

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    I know that's a commonly held believe. I find it to be untrue. There's a difference between surviving and thriving. Some fish are better at dealing with it than others, with some fish their kidneys fail relatively quickly in hard water.
    I also think that I might as well stop mentioning this if I'm the only one who thinks it's relevant.

  6. #6

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by talldutchie View Post
    I know that's a commonly held believe. I find it to be untrue. There's a difference between surviving and thriving. Some fish are better at dealing with it than others, with some fish their kidneys fail relatively quickly in hard water.
    I also think that I might as well stop mentioning this if I'm the only one who thinks it's relevant.
    I would second this and think it is relevant.

    I wouldn't keep neons in hard water. Agreed - Neons can be very sensitive due to inbreeding - but on the other hand I certainly wouldn't encourage wild-caught Cardinal specimens as a better alternative - primarily as it is so difficult to ensure sustainability and welfare. The evidence I have seen of wild-caught species is that their health and adaptability is very poor when directly compared to captive-bred cousins. The die off rates for wild caught fish tend to be pretty horrendous from what I have read in Practical Fish Keeping magazine.

    I think anecdotal evidence, whilst helpful in many cases, is not to be relied upon when welfare is of concern. Like Dutchie says, just because they survive does not mean they necessarily thrive - and fish are difficult things to assess for these kinds of indicators. When you have such a huge choice of fish I believe it is only right to choose one that will suit your water as much as possible.

    Have you considered keeping shell-dwelling Tanganyikan species? They will thrive in your hard-water and are really interesting little fish.
    If you don't want aggressive species like cichlids then guppies are a super alternative hard-water inhabitant and will thrive.
    "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." Carl Sagan
    ~ My 350 Litre Tank Journal ~

  7. #7

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    Merry Christmas - Cliff Merry Xmas You Filthy Animal!! - Hardy85 Merry Christmas buddy! - KevinVA Merry Christmas! - Slaphppy7 Merry Christmas Sandz! - Taurus 
    Happy birthday buddy! - KevinVA Happy B-day!! - steeler1 Happy Bday bud!!! - Hardy85 Have a little cake and ..... - fishmommie .... beer.  Hope it was a good one. - fishmommie 
    Happy Birthday!  Enjoy! - jeffs99dime I'll drink to that! - steeler1 Enjoy! - Hardy85 This one's on me... - Slaphppy7 Here's to one crummy Superbowl, lol! - Slaphppy7 
    T.G.I.F.! - Slaphppy7 Here's to good friends, and new fish! - Slaphppy7 T.G.I.F.! - Slaphppy7 Happy Drink Like a Viking Friday! - KevinVA Happy Easter! - Slaphppy7 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    I understand what you are saying Firefly, and the thought of considering Cardinals in the tank only comes from years of success with the fish that I have experienced first hand. I can agree on the ecological stand point as well. I wont go to the extreme idiology of fish not even being shipped due to potential mortality and stress, thats a whole other debate that need not be rehashed for the umpteenth time... But being that its fairly common to see the cardinal tetra in aquariums from hard to soft water applications, it only lends it to say they are an aggressivly addaptable species that is appropraite for aquaria.

    Also Talldutchie, I dont want to disregard anything you bring to the table. I did some research over renal failure among fish. No where in the US sites did I see a posting that linked hard water to fish death due to renal failure. The kidney obsorbs and holds salts and many other things so it would be easy mentally to make the link between it holding the liquid rock in its filtering system (more so considering the ammount of excretion fish produce being hyperosmotic based organisms who live in water) but I have never seen it documented. Is there any site or study that you have access to that has done a study on the subject? Im interested in why you believe so heavily in it and if its cause for conscern I dont want to subject my discus and rams among other fish to this stress.

    Here are some sites I found on the subject of renal failure in fish:

    http://www.thefishsite.com/diseasein...ey-disease-bkd
    http://voices.yahoo.com/common-fresh...s-3025920.html - when refrencing dropsy
    http://www.peteducation.com/article....+2160&aid=3313
    FW: 1 45gal, 1 40gal, 3 10gal, 3 30gal all community tanks of different species
    Sw: 1 55gal, 1 30gal show, 1 29gal show, 1 20gal and 2 10's

  8. Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Wow, thanks for the quick replies so far! Couple more questions:

    @sandz, I've read that cardinal tetras are actually less hardy than neons? Either is fine with me for appearance (that electric blue stripe is pretty nifty).
    I'd also read that neon's upper end of tolerance for pH was 8 and I'm sitting at 8.5. Similarly with hardness we seem to be above what I understood neons could tolerate. With 8 fishtanks you obviously know what you're talking about, but it's just that everything I've read so far has said the opposite, so your opinion seems too good to be true. ;)

    I'm been reading a lot of positive stuff about corydoras catfish so I'll look into that some more. Thanks for your other fish suggestions too! Having a variety of species is very appealing!

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Jacksonville, FL
    Posts
    3,203

    Awards Showcase

    Merry Christmas - Cliff Merry Xmas You Filthy Animal!! - Hardy85 Merry Christmas buddy! - KevinVA Merry Christmas! - Slaphppy7 Merry Christmas Sandz! - Taurus 
    Happy birthday buddy! - KevinVA Happy B-day!! - steeler1 Happy Bday bud!!! - Hardy85 Have a little cake and ..... - fishmommie .... beer.  Hope it was a good one. - fishmommie 
    Happy Birthday!  Enjoy! - jeffs99dime I'll drink to that! - steeler1 Enjoy! - Hardy85 This one's on me... - Slaphppy7 Here's to one crummy Superbowl, lol! - Slaphppy7 
    T.G.I.F.! - Slaphppy7 Here's to good friends, and new fish! - Slaphppy7 T.G.I.F.! - Slaphppy7 Happy Drink Like a Viking Friday! - KevinVA Happy Easter! - Slaphppy7 

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Here is the reason I say neons are less hardy than cardinals:

    Both fish were origionally taken from the wild. Since, the Neon has been mass produced in places like here in FLorida where I live. To my knowlege, Cardinals are still mostly wild caught. Neons for me succum to disease much much faster than cardinals in my experience. I have had cardinals in at least one tank i have owned for most of my life. Right now is the only time I am without them. I have seen no issues in my water which approaches a 9ph. I have also had neons, personally I can keep them alive for a year or so but they die off really fast. Look around this site and look over and over where people get 12 to account for losing some when they want 8-10.

    I hear you and good on you for doing research. Its my personal experience that I give advice from.

    Also @Talldutchie, I understand how its possible for what you are saying to be true. My personal experience has never shown me an issue like that and I have never been lower than a 7.6 on the ph scale in my life which most of that is 8.6+. I believe much more in the stability of water quality and addaptation of the fish to the water chemistry through steady aclimation. That being said, I dont disect most of my dead fish, nor do I have many of them to disect.
    FW: 1 45gal, 1 40gal, 3 10gal, 3 30gal all community tanks of different species
    Sw: 1 55gal, 1 30gal show, 1 29gal show, 1 20gal and 2 10's

  10. #10

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    My personal experience has never shown me an issue like that
    Didn't you just say your neons never lived longer than a year?

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