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  1. #1

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    Merry Christmas - Abbeys_Mom Great advice thanks - nraposa Thanks for helping me with my cichlids - Drumachine09 Always good answers - Lady Hobbs You dont have enough gifts. - Drumachine09 
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    Default Myths about Goldfish and their care


    0 Not allowed!
    MYTHS OF GOLDFISH AND THEIR CARE:

    “Goldfish are coldwater”

    This isn’t completely a myth, goldfish are definitely well adapted to cold water. They can live in water down to the freezing point, as long as it stays liquid. The myth part of this is that they can only be in cold water. This is not true. They are actually eurythermal, which means they can thrive in a wide range of temperatures. Fishbase.org has their temperature range listed as 0-41C (32-105.8F). (1)

    It is important to distinguish between truly coldwater fish and those who can thrive in warmer temperatures. Truly coldwater fish are species that cannot thrive in warmer temperatures. The increased temperature causes stress, failure to thrive, and can kill them. This would include species like trout and white cloud mountain minnows. These are species that when in higher temperatures show signs of stress such as reduced coloration, overall failure to thrive, and more extremes such as severe stress, illness, and death. This is not the case with goldfish. This is not a case of goldfish simply tolerating higher temperatures then they are given credit for, they thrive in these temperatures just as well as they do in lower temperatures. In higher temperatures they do not show these signs of stress and failure to thrive. They can thrive in higher temperatures.

    The countries the goldfish is native to are: China, Hong Kong, Japan, Laos, Macau, and Myanmar. The countries the goldfish has been introduced to and is now naturalized in (maintaining populations) are very numerous, but include: Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Ethiopia, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Korea, Madagascar, Malaysia, Mexico, Peru, Philippines, Puerto Rico, Samoa, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Africa, Thailand, Uruguay, U.S. Virgin Islands, U.S.A. (including Florida and Hawaii), Vietnam, and Zimbabwe. (2)

    The following map shows the natural and introduced distribution of goldfish in the wild. The blue areas are where they are found naturally. The red is where they have been introduced and established populations.
    (2)(3)

    The CIA World Factbook lists China as varying from sub-arctic in the North, to Tropical in the South.(4) Their natural range includes the Tropical Southern region as well as Hong Kong and Macau. The same source lists Laos as having a Tropical climate.(4) You can see how Tropical of a climate their natural range reaches, less than 15 degrees from the equator in Myanmar, Thailand, and Laos.

    There are some significant implications in the range included in the introduced range of the goldfish. Throughout Indonesia and Malaysia it sits right on the equator. It also stretches continuously from India through the Middle East and into Saudi Arabia. Africa also shows their distribution within 30 degrees latitude. One of the most significant introduced areas is South America. Almost all of South America is now the introduced home of this supposedly coldwater species. This is not only significant in terms of latitude and temperature, but these are the exact same waters so many of the hobby’s tropical fish come from. Goldfish in the wild are literally swimming alongside the exact species kept in tropical tanks, and yet it is claimed to be too hot for them. In addition to all of this is their distribution in Mexico and into the United States. In the U.S. they are not limited to temperate Northern regions, but are present in tropical areas such as Hawaii and Florida. They are not just in large bodies of water that will have a relatively stable temperature throughout the year and day, but they thrive in small ponds that will quickly rise in temperature under the hot summer sun in Florida.

    These are not the coldwater fish we have thought of them as. Beginner books list them as coldwater and frequently give temperature ranges to match this. So it is no wonder people think of them as coldwater fish, we are told they are from the very beginning. But the evidence simply doesn’t support this.

    There is even some indication of higher temperature being beneficial in multiple ways. It has been shown that pigmentation is increased with higher temperature. One study found that the ideal temperature for pigmentation was 26-30C (78.9-86F). (5) Pigmentation (coloration) is generally considered one indication of overall health and ability to thrive. In a different experiment it was found that the highest growth rate was at 28C (82.4F). (6) In both of these studies the ideal temperatures were found to be the highest temperatures used in the experiment. Since they did not use even higher temperatures it is unknown based on these experiments if even higher temperatures would have produced even better results.

    Numerous goldfish keepers have found that higher temperatures do not have negative effects on goldfish, some even cite their goldfish thriving in temperatures as high as 90F. Many of the fancy varieties are bred in tropical climates such as Hong Kong and Thailand. Some keepers have even noted significant stress in these fish when moved immediately in to cooler temperatures upon being imported. It is recommended that fish bred in warmer regions are kept in higher temperatures, at least for a an extended period, at least a few weeks, when they are first imported to reduce the stress of moving from a warmer to cooler climate.

    Author’s experience and conclusion:

    I have had goldfish in the same tank as discus and other tropical fish. I use them to help control the duckweed and crystalwort that I now regret introducing one of my tanks. These are the same goldfish I usually keep in the room temperature goldfish tank. I see no signs of any issues while they are in the tropical tank. They are just as active, if not a little more active. They are just as colorful. They eat just as well. I have seen no signs of any problems with keeping them in this temperature. I have talked with many other goldfish keepers who have or have had goldfish in tropical temperatures. From ponds in tropical areas like Florida and Thailand, to having them in tropical tanks in general.

    But what does this mean for the hobby of keeping goldfish? We do not need to go buy heaters for our goldfish tanks. They thrive in room as well as tropical temperatures. What this means is that when people ask what they can keep with goldfish, we need to focus on the real problems with goldfish in the same tank as other fish and not just regurgitating the myth of temperature problems. This does not mean we can just start putting goldfish in tropical tanks. Goldfish are not compatible with most tropical fish. Almost all are too aggressive, too nippy, or too small to be in with goldfish.


    1 Fishbase.org Carassius auratus
    http://fishbase.org/Summary/speciesS...uratus+auratus

    2 Fishbase.org Countries of Carassius auratus
    http://fishbase.org/Country/CountryL...uratus+auratus

    3 World Map in black and white (color added by author)
    http://kantan-net.main.jp/worldmap/world_map_gif.gif

    4 CIA The World Factbook
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...ook/index.html

    5 Aquaculture Nutrition, 2005, 11 p19-23, “Effect of microalgal biomass concentration and temperature on ornamental goldfish (Carassius auratus) skin pigmentation”. L. Gouveia, and P. Rema.

    6 Aquaculture, 1995, 136 p341-349, “Influence on feed supply, temperature and body size on the growth of goldfish Carassius auratus larvae. P. Kestemont
    Last edited by Fishguy2727; 11-13-2008 at 01:14 AM.
    Aquarist since 1995
    Biologist
    Owner: Aquarium Maintenance Company
    Brian's Aquarium Care: Articles about many aspects of aquarium care.

  2. #2

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    Merry Christmas - Abbeys_Mom Great advice thanks - nraposa Thanks for helping me with my cichlids - Drumachine09 Always good answers - Lady Hobbs You dont have enough gifts. - Drumachine09 
    Thanks for your help again. - Lady Hobbs goodbye reptileguy....hello Fishguy - Lady Hobbs For always giving me great answere's on my PM's. Thanks for all the help! - cocoa_pleco Thanks For Your Help & Knowledge! :) - MeganL3985 For weakening me against axolotls!!!!!!! - Nick_Pavlovski 
    I am baking today and figured I'd share...Thanks for Always Helping when it's needed! - **AquaQueen** For recommending Fluvals and Stealths - Lady Hobbs Merry Christmas :) - MeganL3985 Merry Christmas! - RichBowyer Thanks for the hikari help - Billythefish 
    No Message - LORENZO Merry Christmas - Northernguy merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO Merry X-Mas!! - The Red Severum 

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    0 Not allowed!
    “Goldfish need salt”

    This is a pretty common myth about goldfish. Salt use in freshwater aquariums is debated, but it has been shown to not be beneficial. Long term use can actually cause problems. But its use with goldfish seems to be even harder to budge. Many use it, sometimes quite heavily, all the time. The general ideas are that it reduces stress by reducing osmotic pressure, helps prevent infections, it provides minerals, protects from nitrite poisoning, and to stimulate slime coat production.

    Minerals are provided by tap water in most cases. In addition to this, a truly complete and balanced diet will provide all needed micronutrients and trace elements.

    Using salt to prevent infections just means it is useless as a treatment for any disease that develops during constant salt use since the pathogen has acclimated to the presence of salt. Many pathogens only need salt treatment to be cured, and constant salt use will make these treatments useless and ineffective, requiring the use of riskier, more toxic medications.

    Nitrite should never be a problem. The aquarium should be cycled before fish are put in. Once cycled the tank should never go through any mini-cycles unless the keeper either cleans the filters too well (killing the nitrifying bacteria) or adds too many fish at one time. If problems do arise the best solution is water changes to get rid of the nitrite.

    Fish have no problem producing adequate slime coat. This is a very natural process for them. It is thought that if salt does indeed increase slime coat production it is because the salt is actually irritating the goldfish and the physiological response is to protect itself with more slime coat.

    These are freshwater fish. They have evolved to live and thrive in freshwater conditions. This means their kidneys have evolved to function in freshwater. Adding salt will not help this.

    In addition to the reasons for salt use not being true, the dosing is even worse. Special salts are available for cichlids of Lake Malawi, one of the saltiest bodies of freshwater in the world. The dose for this salt is one tablespoon per 40 gallons. The usual recommendation of salt for goldfish is one tablespoon per five gallons. That is eight times the concentration of one of the saltiest bodies of freshwater in the world.

    The natural water conditions of goldfish do not include brackish water at all, they are only listed as freshwater fish. (1) In addition, goldfish are considered stenohaline (narrow range of salt tolerance) as opposed to euryhaline (tolerant of a wide range of salinities). In an experiment it was found that with goldfish, the higher the salinity was the higher the production of ammonia and urea. (2) They literally produced more waste with more ammonia because of the higher salinity.A different study found similar results. This study found that lower salinities (6ppt and under) were not significantly stressful, but higher salinities produced significant muscle dehydration, adverse affects on growth, reduced food intake, and reduced food conversion rate. In addition to this, the study found that diurnal activity was significantly lower in all groups treated with any level of salt as opposed to the group maintained with no salt. (3) However, this study only lasted three weeks. This means that long term even the lowest salinities could possibly produce significant problems that were not produced in this very short trial period. The fact that the other indicators did become apparent in only three weeks shows how significant salt use can be.

    These are freshwater fish, plain and simple. They come from freshwater, just like all other freshwater fish. These are not brackish fish that can handle freshwater, these are true freshwater fish. Salt has significant negative effects on this species. Its use should be limited to directly treating illnesses and ailments.

    Author’s experience:

    When I first got back in to goldfish after not having them for too many years, I was told how great and important salt was. So I followed the instructions by the employee at the pet shop that is the best in the area for koi and fancy goldfish. I salted the tank, quite heavily, and maintained the salt level the entire time I had that tank setup. One fish grew very well, but in general they did not do as well as the ones I now have. I have made even more improvements with the ones I have now, so it is not due just to the salt, but I definitely see no need for it at all. I have talked to many goldfish keepers who have found the same results, that the idea of salt use with goldfish is really just a myth. For treating illnesses it is a great option, but not good for constant use.

    1- fishbase.org Carassius auratus http://fishbase.org/Summary/speciesS...uratus+auratus

    2-Aquaculture, 2004, 238 p.499-507, “Excretion of ammonia and urea by phylogenetically diverse fish species in low salinities.” I. Altinok, and J. Grizzle.

    3-aquaculture, 2008, 276 p.171-178, “Growth, food intake regulation and metabolic adaptations in goldfish (Carassius auratus) exposed to different salinities.” R. Luz, R. Martinez-Alvarez, N. De Pedro, M. Delgado.

    “Goldfish produce more waste than other fish”

    This is also not true. Goldfish do not produce any more waste per weight than any other fish. There are two things that generally determine how much waste a fish produces, the quality of the food and the normal respiration based on metabolism.

    The quality of the food being fed can affect waste production. If a food is of lower quality then there are more fillers. These are cheap ingredients to add bulk to the food. These are not digestible and simply pass through the goldfish. Many of these contain protein that is not bioavailable to the fish but is used to boost the protein value of the food overall. Any protein that passes through the goldfish and is not digested will be broken down by bacteria in to ammonia and, in the end, nitrate. This will decrease water quality. Sometimes the physical nature of the food affects how clean it is. Some fall apart very easily and therefore when eaten produce ‘dust’ that will simply feed the aforementioned bacteria and, again, in the end increase nitrate.

    The other aspect is metabolism. Cells produce waste. The more cells there are in the fish the more waste that will be produced. This is just a factor of mass. This waste is excreted as ammonia (by the gills and kidneys) and as urea (by the kidneys). Per weight goldfish do not produce more waste than any other type of fish. A higher temperature will increase the rate of metabolism and therefore the amount of waste produced, but this is also true of every other fish.

    “Goldfish do not have a stomach”

    This is also not true. They do have a stomach. The reason many say it is not there is because it is relatively small. There are a number of reasons for this. These are based on the main functions of the stomach: hold recently ingested food, provide physical breakdown of this food, and begin digestion with acid and enzymes.

    Goldfish are herbivorous omnivores, that is omnivores that tend to feed more on plant than animal materials. Their stomach has evolved to match this. Naturally they will take in small amounts of food at a time, but very frequently throughout the day. They constantly feed on small amounts of food at a time. Because of this they do not need a stomach capable of handling very large volumes of food at any given time. The opposite of this would a large piscivore, for example the jaguar cichlid. They eat large volumes of food at a time but do it occasionally. This means their stomach needs to be able to handle this large intake of food, so their stomach will be larger.

    The second function of the stomach is to physically break down the recently ingested food. However, in goldfish this function has already taken place by the time the food reaches the stomach. The pharyngeal teeth are plate-like teeth in the back of the throat of the goldfish. These provide the physical breakdown of food before it gets to the stomach. So this function of the stomach is already fulfilled.

    The last function is to begin digestion with acid and enzymes. This does not require a large stomach. The stomach acid and enzymes can do their jobs on the small volumes of food present in the stomach in the small volume of the stomach. The fact that so little food is present in the stomach at any given time aids in this.

    So the stomach can do what is required of it in its current reduced form in the goldfish.

    Related to this myth are myths about goldfish not being able to process protein, that they cannot process food in general very efficiently, or that they cannot absorb certain nutrients because of their reduced stomach.

    The stomach does not absorb nutrients, this process occurs in the intestines. They can process protein very well, otherwise they would have a very slow growth rate.
    Last edited by Fishguy2727; 11-13-2008 at 01:15 AM.
    Aquarist since 1995
    Biologist
    Owner: Aquarium Maintenance Company
    Brian's Aquarium Care: Articles about many aspects of aquarium care.

  3. Default


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    interesting

  4. #4

    Default


    0 Not allowed!
    Awesome write up, it should be a sticky...

    29 gallon-planted community

    20 long frag tank
    75 gal-planted goldfish

    75 gallon mixed reef with 20 gallon sump






  5. #5

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    0 Not allowed!
    Indeed a great article. Stickied!
    8 tanks running now:
    1x 220 gallon, 2x55 gallon, 1x40 gallon long, 1x29 gallon, 1x20 gallon long, 1x5.5 gallon, 1x2 gallon
    Gouramis, barbs, rasboras, plecos, corys, tetras, fancy guppies, swordtails, ottos, rainbow shark, upside-down catfish, snails, and Max and Sparkles the bettas.

  6. #6

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    Merry Christmas - Abbeys_Mom Great advice thanks - nraposa Thanks for helping me with my cichlids - Drumachine09 Always good answers - Lady Hobbs You dont have enough gifts. - Drumachine09 
    Thanks for your help again. - Lady Hobbs goodbye reptileguy....hello Fishguy - Lady Hobbs For always giving me great answere's on my PM's. Thanks for all the help! - cocoa_pleco Thanks For Your Help & Knowledge! :) - MeganL3985 For weakening me against axolotls!!!!!!! - Nick_Pavlovski 
    I am baking today and figured I'd share...Thanks for Always Helping when it's needed! - **AquaQueen** For recommending Fluvals and Stealths - Lady Hobbs Merry Christmas :) - MeganL3985 Merry Christmas! - RichBowyer Thanks for the hikari help - Billythefish 
    No Message - LORENZO Merry Christmas - Northernguy merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO Merry X-Mas!! - The Red Severum 

    Default


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    January 2009 TFH:

    Article on myths about goldfish.

    Coldwater and incompatible with tropicals myths are discussed.
    Aquarist since 1995
    Biologist
    Owner: Aquarium Maintenance Company
    Brian's Aquarium Care: Articles about many aspects of aquarium care.

  7. Default


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    Nice write up. I have formulated my own opinion surrounding the issue of using LOW levels of salt regularly in the goldfish aquarium. I also questioned the constant use and read quite a few "point/counter point arguments" before proceeding. Having lost my first pair of goldfish to an agressive ick outbreak I decided to salt my second set-up to see what would happen (or not happen). I went with a level of a TEASPOON per gallon, did a fishless cycle for about 7 weeks..then added my fish, 2 fantails. Two weeks went by and all was well with water quality ect when I noticed ONE single ick spot on the fin of my calico fantail. Now I'm nervous but I let it go to see if it got worse before I took more aggressive action. 2 days later the spec on the fin was gone..great. Now at week 4 I notice again ONE single spot on the fine of my orange fantail. This time I don't panic..I just wait. 2 days later it's gone..never to return. So, I;m convinced that the low level of salt was the reason that the ick didn't turn into a crazy outbreak and was only one spot each time. Almost like it was trying to take hold of the tank but couldn't. So, now I'm superstitous so I keep it in at a teaspoon per gallon and add back only when I take water out. Fish look good..happy and water parameters remain perfect.

  8. #8

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    Merry Christmas - Abbeys_Mom Great advice thanks - nraposa Thanks for helping me with my cichlids - Drumachine09 Always good answers - Lady Hobbs You dont have enough gifts. - Drumachine09 
    Thanks for your help again. - Lady Hobbs goodbye reptileguy....hello Fishguy - Lady Hobbs For always giving me great answere's on my PM's. Thanks for all the help! - cocoa_pleco Thanks For Your Help & Knowledge! :) - MeganL3985 For weakening me against axolotls!!!!!!! - Nick_Pavlovski 
    I am baking today and figured I'd share...Thanks for Always Helping when it's needed! - **AquaQueen** For recommending Fluvals and Stealths - Lady Hobbs Merry Christmas :) - MeganL3985 Merry Christmas! - RichBowyer Thanks for the hikari help - Billythefish 
    No Message - LORENZO Merry Christmas - Northernguy merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO Merry X-Mas!! - The Red Severum 

    Default


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    Ich is not a disease I would make a conclusion like that based on. Fish are immune to it until stressed. If they were stressed by something (slightly bad temp during water change for example) it might stress them just enough to allow that one spot of ich to develop but the fish recovered on its own well enough to fight it off without assistance. If the salt was killing the ich it would not have started growing in the first place. If the salt wasn't too much to keep the ich from growing it wasn't enough to kill it.
    Aquarist since 1995
    Biologist
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    Brian's Aquarium Care: Articles about many aspects of aquarium care.

  9. #9

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    Personally, I would even question if it was even Ich.
    Considering a Marine Aquarium? A Breakdown of the Components, Live Rock, Cycling a Marine Tank

    "The capacity to learn is a gift; The ability to learn is a skill; The WILLINGNESS to learn is a choice." - Unknown

  10. #10

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    Merry Christmas - Abbeys_Mom Great advice thanks - nraposa Thanks for helping me with my cichlids - Drumachine09 Always good answers - Lady Hobbs You dont have enough gifts. - Drumachine09 
    Thanks for your help again. - Lady Hobbs goodbye reptileguy....hello Fishguy - Lady Hobbs For always giving me great answere's on my PM's. Thanks for all the help! - cocoa_pleco Thanks For Your Help & Knowledge! :) - MeganL3985 For weakening me against axolotls!!!!!!! - Nick_Pavlovski 
    I am baking today and figured I'd share...Thanks for Always Helping when it's needed! - **AquaQueen** For recommending Fluvals and Stealths - Lady Hobbs Merry Christmas :) - MeganL3985 Merry Christmas! - RichBowyer Thanks for the hikari help - Billythefish 
    No Message - LORENZO Merry Christmas - Northernguy merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO merry christmas.. a fellow fishnutter. - LORENZO Merry X-Mas!! - The Red Severum 

    Default


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    What are you thinking Goldbarb?
    Aquarist since 1995
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    Brian's Aquarium Care: Articles about many aspects of aquarium care.

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