I will never put anything in my tank before I treat it!

[jjliu]

I bought a moss ball from Pet Smart and wished it could help reduce the ammonia level in my tank. Because it is a plant, I know think it needs any treatment before I put it in my tank. Couple days later, I found there were a few white spots on my gourami. Because I only have this one fish, I left him in there and treated the whole tank with the greenish ich medicine for 3 days. I treated him with lights off. However, 3 days later, I found more white spots on him after I turned the lights back on. I thought it happened before the med could kill any bacteria, and it should be fine now. The next day, there were even more white spots on him. Now, he is almost covered by them. So, I try to treat him again, but I feel like the medicine is not working at all. So, I heat the tank to 80 degrees and put aquarium salt into the water. What else I can do to help my gourami?

P.S. My gourami just stays at the corner of the tank and not moving so much. :scry:

[Northerly]

Follow the instructions on the medication to to the T. Also, plants don't reduce ammonia, water changes do. I'd recommend an IMMEDIATE, LARGE water change, and then continue with your medication treatment.

[jjliu]

I do about 30% water change everyday. The instruction for the med is very simple. Basicaly, one drop med for one gallon of water for 24 hours and not treat the fish over 3 days.

[Cliff]

Sounds like you are trying to cycle your tank with fish. Excessive toxins (ammonia) likely brought the ich on if your ammonia went above 0.5 to 0.25 ppm for a extended period of time. Any type of plant or moss ball would have a minimal impact on that.

That can cause a lot of stress on a fish and result in ich

What exactly are you ammonia and nitrite levels at ?

[wskynajar]

Remember to remove any carbon prior to treating with any meds.

[Lady Hobbs]

Now the fish is in water that is not only toxic with ammonia but also with medication. You should have done a large water change before treating him and then added the medication. Lights have no effect on ick. An airstone would also help him because ammonia and medication reduces oxygen.

[jjliu]

My nitrite is 0 ppm. Nitrate is 20ppm. Ammonia is 0.25 ppm.
So, ammonia can bring ich?
I will do a large water change tonight, and then, try to put in the medication.
Is 50% enough?

[KevinVA]

Your Gourami was probably already carrying Ich, but stress made it surface. Many fish, now days, can be carriers of disease/parasites, but have developed a tolerance for them. So long as their stress levels are ok, it's possible for them to live a a while without a breakout of the disease/parasite.

The moss ball probably had nothing to do with this... but your water params would.

Also, plants can aid in ammonia absorption, but you'd need quite a few fast growers to have any real impact. From what I've heard about moss balls, they are not fast growers... and they're an algae (which also feeds on ammonia).

[jjliu]

That makes sense. So, what should I do now? Continuing medicates my gourami and large amount of changing water? Buy a fast growing plant or allege?

[KevinVA]

I would do a large water change, like LH suggested. Test your params to see if they're 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 0-5ppm nitrates (not sure if your cycle is complete or not, since you have nitrates and only a low level of ammonia).

Do you have nitrates in your tap water?

You can raise your temperature to 82-83' F. That will aid in the ich going through its' stages much faster. I think at this point, you should probably just use freshwater aquarium salt (read the directions). Right now, the ich is protected in the fish. It'll eventually drop off the fish and onto the substrate, in a nodule. This nodule is unbreachable and it can't be killed. It's when it becomes free swimming, where the ich can be killed. The hot water and salt will make it unbearable to live, thus killing the ich, when it begins seeking a new host.

You can treat with just heat, as well, but the temp must be 86'F. Not sure how stressful that will be for the DG, though. Typical temperature for them is between 72-82'F.

[mermaidwannabe]

To reiterate what another poster has advised, remove the carbon from your filter while administering medications. Carbon is chemical filtration, and should only be used to remove meds and other undesired chemicals from the tank. If you leave the carbon in your filter, you will defeat the purpose of medicating. When you are finished medicating and need to remove the meds, that's when you should replace the carbon as well as doing water changes.

BTW, I got from the wording of your initial post that maybe you thought the mossball might have caused the ich. Here's assuring you it didn't. As far as I know, introducing plantlife into a tank doesn't spread ick.

--mermaidwannabe

[Goes to 11!]

As Kevin previously mentioned Moss balls are algae and not plants and while it's not impossible, It's also not very likely to have brought free swimming ich into your tank.

What is the specific product you are using please?


Three days is not enough time to treat Ich - It's reproductive life cycle/stages are longer than that. Here is an article to explain more about Ich. (http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=1285.0;wap2)

:22:

[mommy1]

Why can't the plant bring in ich? If the tank it came out of has ich in it there is a good possibility it could have brought in ich during the trophont or tomont stage of the ich lifecycle.

[fishmommie]

So sorry you're dealing with this
If you continue to use medication, take the carbon out of your filter as it's negating the effect of the medication.

You need to pick a fix and stay with it. Either meds, or salt or heat.

Heat worked successfully for me so I'll tell you how I did it in case you want to try it

Do a huge W/C and gradually (over several hours) increase the temp to 86 degrees then leave it there for an additional 4 days AFTER you've seen the last spot on your gourami. then slowly reduce the heat again.
Do not use salt if you you turn the temp this high.
do not use medication.
Add an airstone for oxygenation.
Test your water perims every day. If ammonia and or nitrites approach .50, do a big W/C being careful to maintain the 86 degree heat

Your Gourami should tolerate the heat.

Again - this is a method that worked for me. Since the medication you're using isn't working, I'd sure be looking for an alternative.
good luck!

[jjliu]

Thank you for all the replying!

I took the carbon out when I use the medication, and the medication I am using is called QuICK Cure. I bought it from Amazon.com and the rating is pretty good. I only do 3 day treatment because it says on the bottle Maximum dosage is 3 daily treatments. But, I can do a 25% of changing water if I want further medication.

I have already put salt in my tank, but I wanna try what fishmommie suggested by heating the water to 86 degrees. Is it OK if I heat the tank with the salt? Or, should I do a water change to wash out of the salt? Also, how could I know it's the last spot on my gourami? It is covered by spots now:scry:

I think my water has not fully cycled yet since the ammonia is not 0 mmp, and it is a little milky still.

Also, I always want to ask. Do the white spots fall off afterwards? Or, they stay on the fish? Does water change stress the fish?

[KevinVA]

When the Gourami loses all of its' spots, you'll know that the ich has dropped into it's new phase (in the substrate). This doesn't mean the ich is gone - please remember that. It just means it's in a new phase in the tank - ready and willing to effect others, once it enters its' last phase. Once it "hatches" from the nodule in the substrate, it will be free swimming and look for a new host. That's when you can finally kill it. The nodule is not penetrable.

Once the ich is gone (really gone), you won't have to worry about your fish having the same spots - unless you introduce ich into the tank again.

Water changes can temporarily stress a fish, if you're going to pour it in like a waterfall. If you're careful enough, they'll be fine (and they usually head for cover, anyway). They're more stressed with poor water quality, as they'll burn and it'll become difficult to breathe. So, make sure you keep your ammonia levels low, while treating your Gourami. Ammonia can keep him stressed and does have the ability to kill. So, if the ich doesn't get him, the ammonia will.

There are two heat methods. One is with salt, the other is without. If you're going to use salt, only raise the temp up to 82-83'F. If you're only doing heat, do a large water change to remove the salt that's already in there and raise the temp to 86'F (gradually, over a few hours). If you're at 80'F right now, your Gourami will probably stress if the temp is raised 6' in a short period of time. Maybe every hour, increase the temp by 1-2'.

[fishmommie]

++ to what Kevin said

[mommy1]

Heat speeds up the life-cycle or metabolism of ich and hopefully your fishes immune system can withstand the attack long enough for the parasite to die. Salt increases the osmolarity or osmotic pressure of the ich causing it to die quickly, and thereby lessening both the time needed for treatment and the length of time the fish is under stress. Salt also reputedly has some therapeutic qualities the fish may benefit from during treatment.
Both heat, or heat with salt work, but in my opinion, heat with salt is a better option because you aren't waiting for the ich to complete its life cycle but killing it once it hits the free swimming (theront) stage.

[jjliu]

When the Gourami loses all of its' spots, you'll know that the ich has dropped into it's new phase (in the substrate).

Will all the spots drop at the same time? Or, should I keep heating the water from now until I see all the spots have dropped for few days?

[fishmommie]

If your fish are heavily infected it will take a while for all the spots to drop off. some may have open sores :o(
Just keep an eye on them. Once you see all spots are gone from all fish, then continue the treatment for an additional 4 days to make certain all of the nodules that have dropped to the floor of the tank are dead an cannot reproduce/infect.
Make sure you vacuum good when the treatment is over (some feel it's good to vacuum during treatment also so that's something you may wish to do as well)
good luck!

[Stlouisfish]

Just so you know - if a fish becomes heavily coated with the spots, they could suffocate it - +1 with fishmommie regarding vacuuming your substrate - not only is the ick treatable only at that time, but the more you suck up out of the tank at that point, the less there is to latch onto another fish.

[mermaidwannabe]

My understanding of green algae (which mossballs are) is that it is a very primitive form of plant life, like moss and lichens, and that some things we call "algae", like blue-green algae, are really a toxic bacteria, and brown "algae" are actually diatoms and not really vegetation of any sort.

Mossballs are a very rich, deep green and not a blue-green, though some might see them as being a bit on the bluish side. It would also depend upon one's lighting as to how they reflect their color.

I always thought ich was a fish parasite and wouldn't cling to either primitive plant life such as algae or more advanced plant life like our stem and rhizome plants.

I guess it is possible, afterall, for a mossball to introduce ich into a tank at a certain stage in its development. I just thought it was an animal parasite and not a plant (primitive or otherwise) parasite.

So, I stand corrected where ich is concerned.

-- mermaid

[jjliu]

Good news is I start to see some of the spots dropped off and the high temperature helps my water cycled faster (the water is much clear now). Because my gourami likes to stay at the upper corner of the tank near the heater, those spots stick on the glass. So, I scratched them off and use syringe to get some of the dropped stop out of the tank. Should I still vacuum the subtract even though the water just starts to getting cycled?

[jjliu]

I guess it is possible, afterall, for a mossball to introduce ich into a tank at a certain stage in its development. I just thought it was an animal parasite and not a plant (primitive or otherwise) parasite.


Thank you for the clarification!

[KevinVA]

Should I still vacuum the subtract even though the water just starts to getting cycled?

Yes. Your biological bacteria in in the filter media, not the tank water.