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fishmommie
09-30-2012, 02:46 PM
Hi
I recently fishless cycled a new 90 gal FW then stocked which included 2 blood parrots (see signature line for other fish). All was well for the first week and then I spotted ich on my gold Sev and EBJD. I'm almost finished with ich treatment (85F) and lots of aeration and with the sad exception of losing my angel fish, all seems to be proceeding well.

But this morning, I became concerned about my bigger blood parrot.
This fish had a few little dustings of brown blotches when I got it. I assumed it was just the way it was. But today I noticed that the brown has grown and spread and now I'm concerned about this fish as well.
Both BP's are very shy and hide a lot. Generally the only time I get to see them is from a distance and if I sneak up on the tank. but my observations have been that they are both eating well and are active.
Still - could someone give me an opinion on what, if anything, is going on with the coloration on this BP? Is it normal? Could he possibly be stained from the 'new tank brown algae syndrom' that is pretty heavy in this tank right now? Or do I potentially have a problem with a sick fish

It took forever, but I finally got a photo of the discoloration on the bigger blood parrot
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt227/cindygerard/bp2023.jpg

smaller BP and sev - marked color difference. this fish has always been more orange where the bigger one is an apricot color.
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt227/cindygerard/bp2005.jpg

Thoughts? Do I have a fish in trouble?

Rocksor
09-30-2012, 03:14 PM
That is normal. My previous BP had a black line across the back that grew over time. BP are a cross with either A. citrinellus (midas) or A. Labiatus (red devil), and both species show these same variances.

fishmommie
09-30-2012, 03:41 PM
That is normal. My previous BP had a black line across the back that grew over time. BP are a cross with either A. citrinellus (midas) or A. Labiatus (red devil), and both species show these same variances.

Oh I SOOO hope you're right. I'm a little paranoid right now because so many things have gone wrong with my perfectly planned tank that didn't go perfectly well :14:

Have been worried that the high temps may be putting too much stress on him and the other fish.
thanks for the reassurance.

Lady Hobbs
09-30-2012, 05:37 PM
I'm afraid I would not be so easy to pass this off as nothing. He should not be sitting there with his face downward in a subdued position. He looks ill to me. I do not see a black line, I see blotches all over. Some parrots do get pigmentation in their skin as they get a bit older. But, I would not expect to see it come on all at once and all over the fish.

The pic at the bottom are the parrots I had that died a couple years ago (into their 8th year.) Check the bottom one and you will see the pigmentation I'm talking about.

Parrots have been known to get black spot disease. The 5 I have now have never had it but one of my earlier parrots did a couple times. I always suspected it was stress related but there really is no known cause, as far as they know. I suspected high nitrates. But this is small specks all over the fish and pitch black.

Now I am debating Velvet. Not that I can see it that well but Velvet appears as goldish/brownish area's but it's treated just like Ick is ......it's a parasite. So.........I don't know. If Ick was in the tank, it's possible that Velvet was too. But it should have been taken care of with the Ick treatments.

Frankly, I don't know what in heck it is. But I think he's sick.

The origin of blood parrots is a mystery because they don't want us to know. Suspected parents are below. I suspect you have a gold severum mix and the orange one may be the red devil.

Severum (Heros severus) and the Midas Cichlid (Amphilophus citrinellus) or the Red Devil (Amphilophus labiatus)

Gold Severum (Cichlasoma severum) and Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)

Midas Cichlid (Cichlasoma citrinellum) and the Redhead Cichlid (Cichlasoma synspilum)

Severum (Heros severus) with the Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)

Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum) +Gold Severum (Cichlasoma severum)

Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)+Green Severum (Cichlasoma severum)

Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)+Quetzel (Cichlasoma synspilum)

fishmommie
09-30-2012, 05:56 PM
I'm afraid I would not be so easy to pass this off as nothing. He should not be sitting there with his face downward in a subdued position. He looks ill to me. I do not see a black line, I see blotches all over. Some parrots do get pigmentation in their skin as they get a bit older. But, I would not expect to see it come on all at once and all over the fish.

I'm worried too, however, the only reason he is pointed down is because he was swimming toward the bottom when I snapped the shot. I have to get a shot of him when I can because he hides whenever I come near. they both do. Normally, he's flitting around just like the other BP and is not tipped. Both BPs have buddied up with the Sev and frequently swim and play together. But the color splotches have absolutely increased this past week - which is why I am concerned. otherwise, he acts fine

The pic at the bottom are the parrots I had that died a couple years ago (into their 8th year.) Check the bottom one and you will see the pigmentation I'm talking about.
Unfortunately, I can't open any of those links. not sure what's wrong. I can only view the thumbnail

Parrots have been known to get black spot disease. The 5 I have now have never had it but one of my earlier parrots did a couple times. I always suspected it was stress related but there really is no known cause, as far as they know. I suspected high nitrates. But this is small specks all over the fish and pitch black.
Nitrates in this tank are very low - around 5.

Now I am debating Velvet. Not that I can see it that well but Velvet appears as goldish/brownish area's but it's treated just like Ick is ......it's a parasite. So.........I don't know. If Ick was in the tank, it's possible that Velvet was too. But it should have been taken care of with the Ick treatments. Heat treatment would cure Velvet? Because that's all I'm doing in this tank now, is treating with heat. Copper from the copper safe is almost completely gone per the test this morning.

Frankly, I don't know what in heck it is. But I think he's sick.

The origin of blood parrots is a mystery because they don't want us to know. Suspected parents are below. I suspect you have a gold severum mix and the orange one may be the red devil.

Severum (Heros severus) and the Midas Cichlid (Amphilophus citrinellus) or the Red Devil (Amphilophus labiatus)

Gold Severum (Cichlasoma severum) and Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)

Midas Cichlid (Cichlasoma citrinellum) and the Redhead Cichlid (Cichlasoma synspilum)

Severum (Heros severus) with the Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)

Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum) +Gold Severum (Cichlasoma severum)

Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)+Green Severum (Cichlasoma severum)

Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)+Quetzel (Cichlasoma synspilum)

I could try to net him and put him in QT but then do what? The shock of moving could kill him and besides, the tank is so big and he's so fast I don't think I could net him without a real struggle and stress him even more.
I guess all I can do is leave him be and hope for the best.
this is so discouraging ... but I really appreciate your response.

Rocksor
09-30-2012, 06:24 PM
link for black spot disease

http://www.parrotcichlids.com/parrot-cichlid-health-care.asp

Lady Hobbs
09-30-2012, 06:43 PM
I have enlarged your photo and even used my magnifying glass.......still can't tell. That area of red all down his back bothers me some too.

He might just be ticked off over the high heat, too. Not all fish appreciate high temps. Or medication and high temps.

How many more day is treating necessary?

Lady Hobbs
09-30-2012, 06:49 PM
link for black spot disease

http://www.parrotcichlids.com/parrot-cichlid-health-care.asp

That's quite an article. They write: There isn't much know about this infliction, it's not even known for sure to be a parasite.

Good grief. It's not known to be a parasite because it isn't a parasite! LOL
:ssmile:

I just found this:

Health Issues
Stress Spots: This is usually mistaken for Neascus (Black spot disease). Blood Parrots sometimes get Stress Spots which are black splotches on the body or fins and this is caused by stress. This is typically present you bring them home but can also show up when in cases of shyness, bullying, breeding, illness, or sometimes nothing at all. The splotches will usually disappear after awhile once the problem is taken care of.

fishmommie
09-30-2012, 07:09 PM
I have enlarged your photo and even used my magnifying glass.......still can't tell. That area of red all down his back bothers me some too.

He might just be ticked off over the high heat, too. Not all fish appreciate high temps. Or medication and high temps.
He has had unusual color from the beginning - that's one of the reasons I bought him. He is more apricot than orange and his 'hump' has always been a deeper color than his body. I assumed it was just a natural color variation and is really pretty. But maybe he's had issues from the get go? But honestly - he acts fine - as far as I can tell. Although he hides from me (all the fish do) when I back away at least 6 feet, he's swimming freely, playing in the bubbles from the 2 bubblers (both of the BP's seem to love those bubbles) and he eats well. His dorsal is high, fins are full and fluttery. He pecks away at food on the bottom and rushes to eat right after I feed - as long as I back away from the tank. Again, they ALL do that, the little brats LOL

How many more day is treating necessary?
I can start lowering the temp Thursday at the earliest but Friday would probably be better since the highest I got the temp on the 25th was 84. But it's been a constant 85 every day since. ALL the copper is out of the tank (have been doing 20 - 25% W/C daily to get rid of it). Just tested the water. A=0/ trites = 0/ trates = barely 5. The spots are completely gone from the Severum - again, he only had a few on his dorsal and tail that I could see. But they are gone. So I'm just waiting it out to make sure all ich that has dropped off and is in the water or substrate are good and dead and can't latch on to my fish again.


I'll continue to watch him and do more reading ... but the article Rocksor provided is interesting and kind of fits --- although this guy doesn't have spots exactly ... more like irregular, splotchy streaks and they are more charcoal than black. I've tried to get a better photo but he's just so darn camera shy.

fishmommie
09-30-2012, 07:11 PM
link for black spot disease

http://www.parrotcichlids.com/parrot-cichlid-health-care.asp

this is very interesting and I thank you for providing the link. my guy doesn't exactly have black spots on him. more like irregular blotchy streaks ... and more charcoal gray than black. possibly, though, the color varies or it may yet get darker??
In any event, you've given me hope that maybe he's not horribly sick. I'll check out the medication they suggest and see what kind of hazards it might have for the rest of my tank. can add nothing to it right now, in any event until I get this ich dealt with.
thanks again

fishmommie
09-30-2012, 07:16 PM
That's quite an article. They write: There isn't much know about this infliction, it's not even known for sure to be a parasite.

Good grief. It's not known to be a parasite because it isn't a parasite! LOL
:ssmile:

I just found this:

Health Issues
Stress Spots: This is usually mistaken for Neascus (Black spot disease). Blood Parrots sometimes get Stress Spots which are black splotches on the body or fins and this is caused by stress. This is typically present you bring them home but can also show up when in cases of shyness, bullying, breeding, illness, or sometimes nothing at all. The splotches will usually disappear after awhile once the problem is taken care of.

Oh I like the possibilities this brings. Heat could be the stressor. Or the ich or both. Fingers crossed. 4 (or 5 if I'm being really cautious) more days of heat treatment and I can start to gradually lower the temps. Fingers crossed that when we are back to normal the dark splotches will just go away. Thanks again!!

Lady Hobbs
09-30-2012, 07:49 PM
Since you are into reading today, here's more to read......:ssmile:
dedicated to blood parrots.

I also don't think your fish has black spot. Doesn't look anything like what your fish has at all. I probably muddied the water by even bringing it up but something you should know about anyway. All it took for the black spot on my fish to disappear was a water change. I don't even find black spot much of an issue and only 1 out of my 8 parrots have had it.

For that one particular fish, he had it numerous times, too. I don't know what his deal was. I do think he is simply stressed out and unhappy right now.

http://parrotcichlid.com/node/58

Tossing this out just as an idea......I wonder if it wouldn't be a good thing to remove the rocks and hiding places and do a good gravel cleaning to pick up ick that may be reproducing. Just a thought.

Taurus
09-30-2012, 08:11 PM
/node/58[/URL]

Tossing this out just as an idea......I wonder if it wouldn't be a good thing to remove the rocks and hiding places and do a good gravel cleaning to pick up ick that may be reproducing. Just a thought.

t's a good thought! If the substrate is gravel, a thorough gravel vac would be helpful and it's part of keeping the water clean.

fishmommie
09-30-2012, 08:25 PM
t's a good thought! If the substrate is gravel, a thorough gravel vac would be helpful and it's part of keeping the water clean.

I agree with you both ... very good thought. Now I just have to figure out how I can do it ... Going for an MRI tomorrow for my lower back as through this entire mess I've been pretty much laid up with severe back pain. Nothing's easy, right?
I'll see if I can convince hubby he REALLY might enjoy sucking up fish poo...

thanks all.

Taurus
09-30-2012, 08:29 PM
Going for an MRI tomorrow for my lower back as through this entire mess I've been pretty much laid up with severe back pain. Nothing's easy, right?
I'll see if I can convince hubby he REALLY might enjoy sucking up fish poo...



Yeah, that's why I hadn't mentioned it before. Maybe if you say please..........

fishmommie
09-30-2012, 08:42 PM
Yeah, that's why I hadn't mentioned it before. Maybe if you say please..........

Oh - it's going to take a lot more than 'please'. It's going to take promises LOL

BUT - provided I manage to get him on board (he'll do it <g>), as long as we're removing all the rocks to clean, I have a ton of diatoms on the rocks and plants and the driftwood I'd like to get rid of. What would you recommend cleaning it with?

Taurus
09-30-2012, 08:51 PM
BUT - provided I manage to get him on board (he'll do it <g>), as long as we're removing all the rocks to clean, I have a ton of diatoms on the rocks and plants and the driftwood I'd like to get rid of. What would you recommend cleaning it with?[/COLOR]

Just wipe it off with a sponge, clothe, or brush. Diatoms are soft, so they should wipe right off.

Lady Hobbs
09-30-2012, 08:51 PM
Throw them in some bleach water and air dry them.

My thoughts on moving things out was to pick up any ick that may be hiding in the rocks and caves.

Sorry your back is messed up. Been there/Done that. Had 6 bad disc's with one crushed in 6 places. I used to wonder how people 50 years ago before all the wonderful surgeries tolerated all the pain they went through. People that talk about the wonderful "old days" must be nuts.

No wonder peoples life span was only 40 years!

fishmommie
09-30-2012, 09:01 PM
Throw them in some bleach water and air dry them.

My thoughts on moving things out was to pick up any ick that may be hiding in the rocks and caves.

Sorry your back is messed up. Been there/Done that. Had 6 bad disc's with one crushed in 6 places. I used to wonder how people 50 years ago before all the wonderful surgeries tolerated all the pain they went through. People that talk about the wonderful "old days" must be nuts.

No wonder peoples life span was only 40 years!

Yikes. then you absolutely feel my pain. <g> nothing to do for it but grin an bare it for the time being.

As to ick hiding - won't the high temps kill it all? Or is the idea that there might be spots where the temp doesn't get that high? like in the rocks?

Lady Hobbs
09-30-2012, 09:46 PM
Vacumming the gravel is always a good thing to do when you may have ick reproducing on the bottom. It is not necessary to move the rocks and stuff. I just thought it might be a good idea but that was before I knew your back was screwed up.

I lay a bath towel next to my tanks, throw all the stuff on the towel and vac the heck out of it. But you may want to wait until you feel better.

Take some Aleve! Good stuff.

fishmommie
09-30-2012, 09:51 PM
Vacumming the gravel is always a good thing to do when you may have ick reproducing on the bottom. It is not necessary to move the rocks and stuff. I just thought it might be a good idea but that was before I knew your back was screwed up.

I lay a bath towel next to my tanks, throw all the stuff on the towel and vac the heck out of it. But you may want to wait until you feel better.

Take some Aleve! Good stuff.
if the direct steroid injection and the Vicodin aren't cutting it ... I don't think the Aleve is going to turn the tide either - but normally yes. Normally, however, I never would have mentioned the back. We'll blame the Vicodin for that ... sorry. I don't know how people can get hooked on this stuff. It's horrible

Rocksor
10-01-2012, 02:27 PM
The origin of blood parrots is a mystery because they don't want us to know. Suspected parents are below. I suspect you have a gold severum mix and the orange one may be the red devil.

Severum (Heros severus) and the Midas Cichlid (Amphilophus citrinellus) or the Red Devil (Amphilophus labiatus)

Gold Severum (Cichlasoma severum) and Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)

Midas Cichlid (Cichlasoma citrinellum) and the Redhead Cichlid (Cichlasoma synspilum)

Severum (Heros severus) with the Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)

Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum) +Gold Severum (Cichlasoma severum)

Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)+Green Severum (Cichlasoma severum)

Red Devil (Cichlasoma erythraeum)+Quetzel (Cichlasoma synspilum)


On the severum parentage, I have my doubts simply because I haven't read anyone being successful at breeding a severum with a parrot, which you should be able to do. Also, not a lot of SA cichlids interbreed with CA cichlids (festae can interbreed with CA cichlids as one exception). There are so many postings and pictures of hybrids from CA cichlids which lends to the credence that the BP should be more in line with CA cichlid lineage.

Although, I did find an interesting site about creating a blood parrot, and it was stated that there was a mistranslation from Cantonese when trying to decipher information about creating blood parrots

http://gregthecrazyfishguy.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/genetics-of-the-blood-parrot-cichlid/

Note: SB = short body, SRS = Super Red Synspilum

In the posters own words,

The myth of the severum in bp in my understanding comes from a lot of poorly translated websites and misnaming the particular fish crossed with SRS in the process as “gold severum”. This fish (again, just my understanding, you’d have to speak cantonese to really get a good picture), referred to as “jin gang ying wu” is a ‘sport’ed cross of midas x red devil that exhibits short body charachteristics. Therefore, people in asia started refering to this fish as something that roughly equivocates to “gold severum” in the respective languages, as it is a golden or red fish with a SB midas shape and shortened spine, which makes it look very much like a severum.

Coincidentally, “jin gang ying wu” translates to “macaw parrot”, which is the reason we today refer to them as “parrot” cichlids.

Lady Hobbs
10-01-2012, 03:36 PM
It might be. With all the mystery surrounding these fish, we will most likely never know. There is a lot of bad information about them, too. Especially in the older articles when the fish first hit the market.

I know they breed with Flowerhorns and Convicts. They "may" spawn with Severum but if any fry come from it is another story.

If I had a larger tank, I'd like to have some King Kongs but that isn't gonna happen.

fishmommie
10-03-2012, 05:07 PM
Thought I'd pop in with an update on the Blood Parrot. As of today, literally ALL of the dark splotches on the Blood Parrot are gone! Just vanished. The fish looks and acts perfectly healthy. At it's worse, there was so much dark brown/black around its eyes it looked like they were ringed with coal. The blotches had moved onto the dorsal and tail fins as well as the body and face. Then ... gradually, it just faded away over the last 2 days.

So - I'm inclined to agree with Lady Hobbs. The discoloration was stress induced because of the ich treatment in the tank. As soon as I started reducing the heat and added just a little salt for insurance, things started clearing up for the BP.

So -- yee haw!! A major success. The ich seems to be beaten, the 8 fish in the tank are all eating and moving about happily and the plan is that by Friday, I'll have the temp back down to 80 degrees, everything vacuumed and have completed two 20 - 25% water changes.
Big sigh. It appears I dodged a bullet.
thanks to everyone who weighed in on this. I really appreciate it.

Lady Hobbs
10-03-2012, 05:54 PM
I am so happy for you and for you little fish.

fishmommie
10-03-2012, 06:31 PM
I am so happy for you and for you little fish.

Thanks. I'm sooooo happy too :1luvu:

Taurus
10-04-2012, 01:43 AM
So -- yee haw!! A major success. The ich seems to be beaten, the 8 fish in the tank are all eating and moving about happily and the plan is that by Friday, I'll have the temp back down to 80 degrees, everything vacuumed and have completed two 20 - 25% water changes.
Big sigh. It appears I dodged a bullet.
thanks to everyone who weighed in on this. I really appreciate it.

That's great to hear. :ssmile:

fishmommie
10-04-2012, 03:11 AM
It's a HUGE relief. Thanks again for all your help.

That's great to hear. :ssmile:

Taurus
10-04-2012, 07:59 PM
It's a HUGE relief. Thanks again for all your help.


Welcome. I'm just glad it all worked out. :ssmile: