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fishmommie
09-25-2012, 11:54 PM
I need advice and help.
Set up my 90 gal FW 8-26. Completed fishless cycle 9-16. Stocked as per my signature line same day.
2 days ago I noticed signs of ich. Have no idea why. Perimeters are perfect 0/0/10 ph 7.2. temp now at 82 and treating with Coppersafe. Lots of air moving with bubbler and spray bar.

My angel - a little bigger than silver dollar size - has been fine from day one. He's been active, social - with me and the other fish and eating well. Shows no visible signs of ich (actually, only 2 fish do)
Now sudden today I notice he's hanging at the top of the tank tipped at a bit of a side angle, mouth toward the top. he refused to eat twice today. He's very lethargic. The tank is in my home office where I spend my entire day and part of the evening so I can watch it carefully. I have noticed NO bullying so that can't be the cause.

Anyone have any ideas? He's so gorgeous. I really hate the thought of losing him.
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt227/cindygerard/newtankmisc019.jpg

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt227/cindygerard/90newfish042.jpg

thanks

Lady Hobbs
09-26-2012, 01:22 AM
Some fish don't do well with ick medications that contain cooper. Actually some don't do well with any medications at all and some don't do too well with high heat either. Treating ick comes with it's challenges, at times.

But did you add an airstone? Adding all medications requires adding oxygen. You removed charcoal, right?

Indian Woods Angels
09-26-2012, 01:30 AM
I have had some serious problems when using chelated copper products such as copper safe. Certain additives in the water damage the ability of the chemical that binds the copper and the total dose is let into the water.

It can be tricky to remove as well, in some cases simple dilution type water changes can cause trouble because the sterilants can mix with the chelation chemicals. I have used a Cuprisorb bag or a copper absorbing bag to remove the copper.

This fish is definitely stressed from the copper, do not add any other chemical to the aquarium and be careful to not further damage it.

It may be best to remove the fish to another tank like a QT tank so it can recover from the copper exposure.

Sorry.

fishmommie
09-26-2012, 04:01 AM
Hi Lady Hobbs.
This is so upsetting. As you know, I did everything I could to set up this tank so the water perims and environment were perfect ... all fish came from same store. all fish had been in store for 6 weeks of QT.

When I first discovered the Ich on Sunday (my EBJD and Sev were glancing and fin clamping and the sev actually had a few spots) I read the forum post on treating ich and treated with sea salt (one treatment only) and gradually upped the temp to 84. Within 8 hours both fish were markedly better ... but then I became alarmed for the pleco so at the advice of the LFS owner (independent and many years of experience) on Monday he had me make a 60% W/C to clear out most of the salt, lower the temp from 84 to 82. I drove to the store and got some coppersafe and carefully dose to 1.5.
That was yesterday.

The airstone has been going full blast and today I lowered the water level enough for the spray bar to add extra bubbles. Did not remove the carbon from the canister (again at advice of the LFS owner) only because it has been in the cannister for a month and figure it is most likely not a factor. Could that be wrong?

IndianWoodsAngel:

Have a QT (5 gal) but am afraid it might stress the angel even more to put him through the trauma of netting and isolating him.
He seems a bit better tonight. He's no longer at the top but is moving around a bit more at all areas of the tank, spending more time closer to the bottom - just hanging around, not as tipped sideways or upward. I'm hopeful that's a good sign.

So many conflicting reports on copper - all I had read indicated it would not harm FW angels. Now I know those sources were wrong.

What is your best advice - short of the QT which really scares me because of the additional stress?
Should I add fresh carbon to the canister to remove the coppersafe, go back to a light salt treatment (so as not to harm the pleco) and up the temp?
Simply up the temp?
Stay this course and not add any more coppersafe if the level drops and hope for the best?

One other note: tonight I also notice that my water is a tad cloudy. not sure what that's about. Bothered me enough that I tested: Ammonia had been 0 but now shows just a tiny hint of green, so it looks like a trace of ammonia - which puzzles me. trites - 0. trates hardly 5 - which also puzzles me. ph 7.2

Thank you both for any and all further advice.

fishmommie
09-26-2012, 04:37 AM
here's a photo of him tonight if it will help figure out what's going on.

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt227/cindygerard/lanebdaysickangel015.jpg

thanks again

Lady Hobbs
09-26-2012, 04:55 AM
I don't really see anything wrong with him. He's colored up and I see no spots.

fishmommie
09-26-2012, 05:01 AM
I don't really see anything wrong with him. He's colored up and I see no spots.

Yes, he's got good color and I can't see any spots either but his fins are folded in much more than usual (see previous photo) and he just refused to eat again. a sinking pellet actually bounced off his nose and he shook it off.

I hope you're right. I hope he's just having an off night??

thanks

Lady Hobbs
09-26-2012, 06:07 AM
I see what you mean. He probably doesn't care for that medication. Hopefully it won't have to be in the tank for long.

fishmommie
09-26-2012, 12:33 PM
I see what you mean. He probably doesn't care for that medication. Hopefully it won't have to be in the tank for long.

He's about the same this morning except he's back at the top of the tank, hanging near the surface. and he refused to eat again.

Do you think a P W/C would help? To get rid of some of the copper? maybe 30% or so? then up the temp by a degree to 83 to continue to work on the ich in the tank?

Or should I just ride it out and hope for the best?

as for QT - it's not that I don't see the merits of moving him to one, I do. I'm just so afraid that the stress of netting and catching him and the isolation could be the end of him + I have multiple issues that could really make a QT a complication and end up being a disaster

thanks much

Indian Woods Angels
09-26-2012, 01:21 PM
This is my take on where we are, how we arrived there and what to now:

Initially salt was added and the temperature raised to treat the ich. This step alone was not a bad move, it may have eventually beaten the ich. This step and any change or use of any medication including salt as a medication causes a bit of stress as the fish acclimates to the conditions.

The next thing I feel caused some of the problems, the 60% water change. Unless an aging or mixing vat is used I have found that almost any water conditioner needs a certain amount of contact time to chemically contact and react with the chloramines and chlorines in the water. If the water is added directly to the aquarium we use the aquarium as the contact vat for the exposure of these two chemicals to duke it out. In the mean time there are all of the fish setting in the mix of chemicals to remove the chlorine and chlorine or chloromine. This time delay of exposure reaction exposes the tissue of the fish to the chlorine despite having removers in the water. We will call this the reaction dwell time, it could take 2 minutes or 5 or 15 for the chemical process to fully react and render the chlorine out completely. However the ability of the chlorine to burn is upon contact. It burns the soft tissues including the gills and the fine filiments of the fins. This is why the fish is holding at the surface to get a better oxygen exchange due to damaged gill tissue, the fins are clamped due to minor tissue damage on the fins. Appetite is down due to the stress of the situation of being burned a bit.

As a separate issue the copper is causing the same type of stresses and although it may not burn the tissue it does in many cases affect tissue hydration which can cause similar stress issues. Copper has many odd reactions to certain situations which make keeping it at a controlled dosage level difficult or which cause an amplified affect on the life.

So that is where we are in my opinion. Moving forward I would observe and react patiently to the progress of the situation, it can take several days to heal from a situation such as this. Water changes of 25% would be advised if done as this weakens through dilution the ability of the chlorine to be present enough to burn the fish any further.

I support doing 50% water changes weekly, but I have had problems when I do them all at once similar to the ones you are having. I do multiple 30% changes especially if I have medications in the water. Even doing a 30% and waiting 2 or 3 hours is very helpful to dilute the chlorine to an acceptable level.

Hope this is helpful.

fishmommie
09-26-2012, 01:45 PM
You have both been very helpful and what you've just said makes perfect sense. I've never considered that a larger W/C could cause issues as my tap PH is the same as my tank PH and I use a dose of prime that accommodates all 90 gallons.
BTW - checked perimeters again just now 0/0/5. ph 7.6 on the low scale and 7.3 on the high scale. so the ph has altered a tad.

So - if you were me -- would you do a small - like 20% W/C this morning? Then maybe another 20% this afternoon?
Or would you proceed even more cautiously with just 1 20% change today then wait until tomorrow to see how the fish are reacting?

Or would you simply do nothing and monitor closely?

Hesitate to assume but either way, but If a pw/c is advisable, would you NOT redose with Coppersafe to keep the level at 1.5? Instead, would you up the temp to 83F and see if the heat alone (and with the amount of copper reduced slightly in the tank) start handling the ich?

7 of the 9 fish seem to be handling all well. The angel is my big worry right now and the EBJD who had been doing much better but has now taken to hiding again and did not eat this morning.
Have no idea if the pleco is eating. He ignores the zuccini and watermelon I leave him and mostly hides. When I do see him, he is active and busy munching on his wood and while the only algae I see is a bit of brown algae on the rocks, I am assuming he is getting enough nutrition.

If you have another plan of action in mind - I'm all ears. and thank you so much!


This is my take on where we are, how we arrived there and what to now:

Initially salt was added and the temperature raised to treat the ich. This step alone was not a bad move, it may have eventually beaten the ich. This step and any change or use of any medication including salt as a medication causes a bit of stress as the fish acclimates to the conditions.

The next thing I feel caused some of the problems, the 60% water change. Unless an aging or mixing vat is used I have found that almost any water conditioner needs a certain amount of contact time to chemically contact and react with the chloramines and chlorines in the water. If the water is added directly to the aquarium we use the aquarium as the contact vat for the exposure of these two chemicals to duke it out. In the mean time there are all of the fish setting in the mix of chemicals to remove the chlorine and chlorine or chloromine. This time delay of exposure reaction exposes the tissue of the fish to the chlorine despite having removers in the water. We will call this the reaction dwell time, it could take 2 minutes or 5 or 15 for the chemical process to fully react and render the chlorine out completely. However the ability of the chlorine to burn is upon contact. It burns the soft tissues including the gills and the fine filiments of the fins. This is why the fish is holding at the surface to get a better oxygen exchange due to damaged gill tissue, the fins are clamped due to minor tissue damage on the fins. Appetite is down due to the stress of the situation of being burned a bit.

As a separate issue the copper is causing the same type of stresses and although it may not burn the tissue it does in many cases affect tissue hydration which can cause similar stress issues. Copper has many odd reactions to certain situations which make keeping it at a controlled dosage level difficult or which cause an amplified affect on the life.

So that is where we are in my opinion. Moving forward I would observe and react patiently to the progress of the situation, it can take several days to heal from a situation such as this. Water changes of 25% would be advised if done as this weakens through dilution the ability of the chlorine to be present enough to burn the fish any further.

I support doing 50% water changes weekly, but I have had problems when I do them all at once similar to the ones you are having. I do multiple 30% changes especially if I have medications in the water. Even doing a 30% and waiting 2 or 3 hours is very helpful to dilute the chlorine to an acceptable level.

Hope this is helpful.

Indian Woods Angels
09-26-2012, 02:38 PM
I'm not certain that Prime and Coppersafe are friendly with each other. I use AmQuell and I try to use heat to cure ich. If the two are compatible I would use them per the shop's recomendations. I would do multiple 20% water changes to keep everything balanced and clean but I would wait to redose the copper until the reaction took place and cleared the chlorine from the tank. To put the copper and the prime and the chlorine together ups the amount of weird things in the water which will cause stress. Are you doing a copper test to determine the copper levels at 1.5?

fishmommie
09-26-2012, 03:01 PM
I'm not certain that Prime and Coppersafe are friendly with each other. I use AmQuell and I try to use heat to cure ich. If the two are compatible I would use them per the shop's recomendations. I would do multiple 20% water changes to keep everything balanced and clean but I would wait to redose the copper until the reaction took place and cleared the chlorine from the tank. To put the copper and the prime and the chlorine together ups the amount of weird things in the water which will cause stress. Are you doing a copper test to determine the copper levels at 1.5?

Hi again
It never occurred to me that coppersafe and prime might clash. Unfortunately, I have no other conditioner on hand and my LFS is an hour away and wouldn't you know it - I am dealing with a lower back issue that is preventing me from driving. when it rains and all that.

I checked the copper level again this morning and per the chart it appears to be between 1. and 2.

So - multiple 20% W/C today? as in 2 or 3 several hours apart?
then forget additional coppersafe doses and up the heat to 83? 84?
I want to only do what's best for these fish.
thanks so much

Taurus
09-26-2012, 03:24 PM
So - multiple 20% W/C today? as in 2 or 3 several hours apart? Then forget additional coppersafe doses and up the heat to 83? 84? I want to only do what's best for these fish.
thanks so much

That what I would do. I'd do 20% water changes morning and evening, at least 12 hours apart until the coppersafe is out of the water. Up the heat to 84 - 85.

fishmommie
09-26-2012, 03:32 PM
That what I would do. I'd do 20% water changes morning and evening, at least 12 hours apart until the coppersafe is out of the water. Up the heat to 84 - 85.

thank you all very much. 20% w/c in progress. will do another tonight.

Fingers crossed and again thanks so very, very much

Taurus
09-26-2012, 03:48 PM
Good read on treating ick except for the coppersafe part.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php

Remember to keep the entire surface of the tank water agitated. Heat and the coppersafe will lower water's ability to carry oxygen. Extration agitation at the surface of the water will increase gas exchange and help keep the water oxygenated.

HTH

fishmommie
09-26-2012, 03:53 PM
Good read on treating ick except for the coppersafe part.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php

Remember to keep the entire surface of the tank water agitated. Heat and the coppersafe will lower water's ability to carry oxygen. Extration agitation at the surface of the water will increase gas exchange and help keep the water oxygenated.

HTH

I read that article and many more trying to determine how to treat this but I appreciate the resend. I initially started with sea salt and heat then became concerned about my Pleco - that's why I switched to the Coppersafe.

But it's back to heat only for me for now. And yes, I have a bubbler going full blast and have lowered the water level so the spray bar is really causing a ruckus on the surface. Hopefully that will add enough O2
Will increase heat gradually to 85 as suggested.

Quick question - how much Prime? When I do the 20% W/C do I add enough to cover the water replaced or enough for the entire 90 gallons?
again - thanks!

Taurus
09-26-2012, 04:10 PM
Check your PMs.

fishmommie
09-26-2012, 05:29 PM
Check your PMs.

I've been checking this tank daily since the trouble began. This morning the readings were
A = 0
trites = 0
trites = 5
ph (low range test) 7.6
ph (hi range test) 7.1
copper 1.5

After the 20% W/C the copper dropped to 1. Which is good.

So you know - the ONLY chemical I routinely use is Prime for conditioning. I only used the Coppersafe upon the advice of my LFS (who has had years of experience and really meant well).
Having said that, I received some Stability in the mail today along with other items I'd ordered from F&S. Should I leave well enough alone (that's my gut reaction) or might a dose of Stability help? Directions say: For optimum biofilter performance use monthly or with each W/C and whenever introducing new fish OR when medicating.

thoughts?
and thanks

Taurus
09-26-2012, 06:32 PM
You don't need it. End of thought. :ssmile:

A wise man told me once that the best medicine for tropical fish is clean water and good food. Maybe a little extra heat.

fishmommie
09-26-2012, 06:53 PM
You don't need it. End of thought. :ssmile:

A wise man told me once that the best medicine for tropical fish is clean water and good food. Maybe a little extra heat.

that's what I figured.

oh - and I'm a little dense. When you said check PM - you didn't mean water perimiters LOL. found your PM. thanks

Taurus
09-26-2012, 06:56 PM
I meant private messages and you did.

fishmommie
09-26-2012, 11:23 PM
Well, the report is more or less neutral.
have gradually increased tank temp to 85F. Bubbler still going full blast and water level lowered so spray bar is shooting out on top of water.

The angel has chosen to hide in the far back corner, bottom of the tank, amid some leaves so it's difficult to observe him, but, his lack of movement is, in itself telling, I suppose. I just fed the tank - both flakes and sinking cichlid pellets. Again, he ignored both. That makes 2 days (that I know of) that he hasn't eaten. I may have missed the first time he did not eat but it couldn't have been by more than a day

As a bench mark here's how the other fish are behaving:
EBJD - hard to tell how he's doing. sometimes his fins are clamped, sometimes his dorsal is flying. Sometimes he's really active, sometimes he hides behind a rock. He also did not eat tonight.
Gold Sev - ate well, active but shows the most visible symptoms of ich. Only fish with visible spots on tail and dorsal and has started glancing again.
2 Blood Parrots - seem fit and fine and ate like little piggies
2 dwarf gourami - same as BP
Geophagus - he seems okay. he also ate and I have not seen any spots on him or signs of other stress
Emperor pleco - he also SEEMS okay. I don't see any white spots but then, he's black and white so who knows. He totally ignores the zucchini and watermelon I offer him every day but I continue to remove and replace with fresh in the hope he'll finally take a bite. I have not seen him eat any of the algae pellets I've sank. The only algae I see in the tank is a sort of brown/rust/gold on the some of the rocks and the driftwood. Assume this is normal??? He munches on the driftwood constantly so I'm hoping he's getting his nutrients there.

Will complete another 20% W/C before I go to bed to remove more of the copper (was down to 1. after this am's 20% wc) and 1/2 dose tank with Prime.

Does anyone see anything else I should be doing?
Thanks so much!

Indian Woods Angels
09-27-2012, 02:58 AM
Some info on copper
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/Q&A/all_about_copper.htm

Info on ich, I would look about the site for added info
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/Q&A/skin_disorders.html

I might contact them and ask about what to use with the pleco.

fishmommie
09-27-2012, 03:15 AM
Some info on copper
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/Q&A/all_about_copper.htm

Info on ich, I would look about the site for added info
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/Q&A/skin_disorders.html

I might contact them and ask about what to use with the pleco.

Thanks so much. I may do just that. appreciate it.

Quick update - the angel seems to have rallied a bit after the 2nd 20% W/C. He's holding his fins a little higher and moving around a bit more. Still not eating but fingers crossed that tomorrow he'll be up to it.

thanks again everyone.

fishmommie
09-27-2012, 02:01 PM
Well, the angel seems a little perkier this morning. Not back to normal but his fins are a little higher and I've seen the rare occasion where he leaves his corner at the back of the bottom of the tank and does a little drive by at the back wall. He still refused to eat - (frozen brine shrimp which he has always really gone after before).
The rest of the tank is looking pretty good - all are eating - even the EBJD. The sev is still glancing. He is going to have some sores on his tail and dorsal fins, I'm afraid, when those spots finally fall off.

2 more 20% W/C coming up today to get rid of rest of copper. Continued 85F heat and lots of aeration.

Question 1: How long do I need to keep the heat at 85 to insure the ich is dead in the tank? I increased the temp to 82 as of Sunday, up to 84 on Tuesday and it's been at 85 since Wed.

Question 2: Only the Sev shows visible ich spots even thought I know the EBJD is definitely infected and it would be safe to assume the other fish are too, to some degree. When the spots finally fall off theSev, will he have sores? is there something I should be treating the tank with to ward off infection on that front? I have Melafix on hand.

Question 3: I will be needing to make a W/C in my 30 gal Saturday or Sunday. I have only 1 water exchanger with a hose long enough to reach both tanks. Is there any danger of infecting my 30 with ich if I use the same hose? Buckets are out of the question at the moment due to an untimely issue with my lower back. ug. like I needed this now.

thanks all

kurly
09-27-2012, 03:10 PM
Just wanted to say that I'm glad your Angel is getting better and I hope for a full recovery VERY soon.

fishmommie
09-27-2012, 03:37 PM
Just wanted to say that I'm glad your Angel is getting better and I hope for a full recovery VERY soon.
Thanks, Kurly. I hope so too. He's not out of the woods yet and I'm hoping it's not just wishful thinking on my part but I really do feel that he's looking better. At least he's not looking worse :o) How's your new angel doing?

Lady Hobbs
09-27-2012, 04:11 PM
Come here to see how he was doing and happy to hear better.

fishmommie
09-27-2012, 04:16 PM
Come here to see how he was doing and happy to hear better.

Thanks Lady Hobbs. I'm hopeful. And I appreciate the concern. He's such a gorgeous guy (or girl - haven't figured that out yet)

Taurus
09-27-2012, 04:58 PM
If this were my tank, this is what I would do:


Question 1: How long do I need to keep the heat at 85 to insure the ich is dead in the tank? I increased the temp to 82 as of Sunday, up to 84 on Tuesday and it's been at 85 since Wed.

I'd leave the temp at 85 for at least a week to 10 days or until no visible signs of ick remain in the tank. If the ick is gone in a week, I'd leave the temp up for 3 more days just to be sure the ick is dead.

Question 2: Only the Sev shows visible ich spots even thought I know the EBJD is definitely infected and it would be safe to assume the other fish are too, to some degree. When the spots finally fall off theSev, will he have sores? is there something I should be treating the tank with to ward off infection on that front? I have Melafix on hand.

Clean water should help heal wounds or sores. If sores remain after the heat is lowered, you could try adding melafix to help heal the sores. Clean water is the best medicine IMHO.

Question 3: I will be needing to make a W/C in my 30 gal Saturday or Sunday. I have only 1 water exchanger with a hose long enough to reach both tanks. Is there any danger of infecting my 30 with ich if I use the same hose? Buckets are out of the question at the moment due to an untimely issue with my lower back. ug. like I needed this now.

Soak the water changer and hose in a 10% bleach to water solution for 6 hours, then rinse thoroughly and resoak for another 6 hours in water with a heavy does of prime added. I'd use the bath tub to do this.

fishmommie
09-27-2012, 11:27 PM
If this were my tank, this is what I would do:

thanks so much. appreciate the great info and advice. Will do. Please see PM

fishmommie
09-28-2012, 01:10 PM
Sadly, I woke up this morning and my angel was dead. I really didn't see that coming. I thought he was on the mend. So I'm at a loss and heartbroken.
Anyway, thanks for all your help trying to save him.

Now, however, I'm in a quandary about the tank. The first thing I did after getting the poor guy out of there was check the water perims to see if something was messed up. And I'm puzzled.
Ammonia - which had been 0 since the cycle was completed is now showing between .25 and .50. Could the dead angel have caused the little spike in ammonia?
Nitrites are still 0. PH is steady at around 7.2 But trates are questionable. I had been using trait test bottles that were about 4 months old and almost empty and those bottles test about 5ppm. But since I just received a new test kit in the mail I also checked with it and it tests at 0
Please tell me that those 2 per day 20% W/C to get the coppersafe out of the tank did not kill my completed cycle.
Copper, BTW - is still sitting between.5 and 1.
Temp is at 85. still plenty of aeration.
I'm tempted not to do a w/c today since copper was the issue for the angel and hadn't affected the others.
What would you do if it were your tank?
Would you add some Seachams Stability to reduce any possible issues with the ammonia and then wait and retest daily?
I'm on day 4 of 85% temps to kill the ick. Plan to keep it at 85F another 6 days at least. All of the other fish are eating and acting fine. Haven't spotted the EBJD yet this morning but he can be a bit reclusive and I don't see him floating anywhere so I'm praying he's okay too.

thanks so much
Sad and sick at heart ....

Taurus
09-28-2012, 02:03 PM
Sadly, I woke up this morning and my angel was dead. I really didn't see that coming. I thought he was on the mend. So I'm at a loss and heartbroken.
Anyway, thanks for all your help trying to save him.

Now, however, I'm in a quandary about the tank. The first thing I did after getting the poor guy out of there was check the water perims to see if something was messed up. And I'm puzzled.
Ammonia - which had been 0 since the cycle was completed is now showing between .25 and .50. Could the dead angel have caused the little spike in ammonia?
Nitrites are still 0. PH is steady at around 7.2 But trates are questionable. I had been using trait test bottles that were about 4 months old and almost empty and those bottles test about 5ppm. But since I just received a new test kit in the mail I also checked with it and it tests at 0
Please tell me that those 2 per day 20% W/C to get the coppersafe out of the tank did not kill my completed cycle.
Copper, BTW - is still sitting between.5 and 1.
Temp is at 85. still plenty of aeration.
I'm tempted not to do a w/c today since copper was the issue for the angel and hadn't affected the others.
What would you do if it were your tank?
Would you add some Seachams Stability to reduce any possible issues with the ammonia and then wait and retest daily?
I'm on day 4 of 85% temps to kill the ick. Plan to keep it at 85F another 6 days at least. All of the other fish are eating and acting fine. Haven't spotted the EBJD yet this morning but he can be a bit reclusive and I don't see him floating anywhere so I'm praying he's okay too.

thanks so much
Sad and sick at heart ....

Crap! I'm sorry we lost the angel. It's never a good sign when any fish refuses to eat.

The dead angel could have caused an ammonia spike. I don't believe it's live ammonia though because your using prime as your water conditioner.

The water changes did not kill your cycle. The bacteria lives in your filters, so changing water and using prime should not have killed your cycle.

If this were my tank, I'd continue with the heat treatment for the planned duration as long as your other fish do not appear stressed and they are eating.

I would not add stability. I'd perform one more 25% water change to get the coppersafe down. It always wise to do a water change anytime a fish dies in the tank.

Stay the course as long as the other fish are eating and none appear stressed.

Again, I'm sorry the angel is gone.

Indian Woods Angels
09-28-2012, 05:18 PM
I'm not certain of exactly what the scenario is chemically but some how the situation must have removed the chelation agent from the copper making it unstable and poisoned the fish. I'm not sure if it was the prime, the salt, the chlorine from the water or what but there was a reaction that caused the copper to become unstable.

I don't use prime so I am not real familiar with whether or not this may have caused it. And I only use a non chelated form of copper because I had poor luck with coppersafe too.

Sorry.

fishmommie
09-28-2012, 05:24 PM
I'm not certain of exactly what the scenario is chemically but some how the situation must have removed the chelation agent from the copper making it unstable and poisoned the fish. I'm not sure if it was the prime, the salt, the chlorine from the water or what but there was a reaction that caused the copper to become unstable.

I don't use prime so I am not real familiar with whether or not this may have caused it. And I only use a non chelated form of copper because I had poor luck with coppersafe too.

Sorry.

Hopefully, ich and its treatment will not be an issue again ... of course, I'm still at a loss as to how the ich infected my tank to begin with. some questions will never be answered
Appreciate all your help

kurly
09-28-2012, 08:59 PM
So sorry to hear about your Angel, fishmommie :scry:

You did the best you could do to save him. I hope you can get your tank back to normal very soon.

C-Dub
09-29-2012, 01:04 AM
Just read this entire thread and wow, I am sorry you lost the angel, that stinks! You obviously did everything possible and I commend you for that. Hope it all works out for you! Again, very sorry you lost the Angel

MCHRKiller
09-29-2012, 01:28 AM
Ich is one of those parasites which are commonly introduced into the tank via new fish or water from another tank. This is why even a QT for a new tank system is very effective. Stress of moving, differences between water parms in your tank and the LFS tank, etc can weaken a fish's immune system and allow the ich parasite to take hold. The Angel's death is no surprise...most LFS stock come from farmed fish which are IME prone to disease and simply just genetically weak. This is from generations of inbreeding, keeping the fish constantly medicated, and various growth/color inducing hormones given to the fish to boost quick sales. I would also watch your EBJD they are notoriously difficult to get to survive, very few make it to adulthood.

Keeping the temp at 85*F for 10-14 days is acceptable, I do hope you have increased surface agitation even more. 90Gs are tall tanks and are more difficult to properly oxygenate...temperature de-pleats oxygen. The fish being in a weakened state and under the exposure of some hard core medication require more oxygen...it wouldn't hurt to open the top of the tank some or add an extra airpump. You should also be doing daily WCs of 20-30% when using any medication. Next time keep some AquariSol on hand...it is a very versatile medication which is also fairly safe to use on even weak fish. This is because the copper in AquariSol is chelated...it is less toxic than most treatments.

Another thing to consider is your aquarium's alkalinity. A tank with a low alkalinity will have much more adverse reactions to the exposure of copper than a tank with higher alkalinity levels. This is because low alkalinity yields the copper more toxic.

fishmommie
09-29-2012, 02:45 AM
Just read this entire thread and wow, I am sorry you lost the angel, that stinks! You obviously did everything possible and I commend you for that. Hope it all works out for you! Again, very sorry you lost the Angel

From Kurly:So sorry to hear about your Angel, fishmommie

You did the best you could do to save him. I hope you can get your tank back to normal very soon.

Thanks to both of you and for everyone who has contributed and attempted to help me and my fish. I appreciate it.

fishmommie
09-29-2012, 03:05 AM
Ich is one of those parasites which are commonly introduced into the tank via new fish or water from another tank. This is why even a QT for a new tank system is very effective. Stress of moving, differences between water parms in your tank and the LFS tank, etc can weaken a fish's immune system and allow the ich parasite to take hold. The Angel's death is no surprise...most LFS stock come from farmed fish which are IME prone to disease and simply just genetically weak. This is from generations of inbreeding, keeping the fish constantly medicated, and various growth/color inducing hormones given to the fish to boost quick sales. I would also watch your EBJD they are notoriously difficult to get to survive, very few make it to adulthood.
Thanks for weighing in MCHRKiller - I really appreciate it even though this is tough to read. I guess I more or less saw my freshly cycled 90 as a QT because all fish came from the same indy shop, all fish had been in stock for at least a month and all appeared to be very healthy. I was hopeful that a drip acclimation - which I did for a little over an hour - would solve any stress issues due to the differential in the PH levels. The LFS runs 8. My water in the tank is 7.6 Clearly, I was wrong.

I'm very worried, still, for my EBJD. He was the first to show symptoms of ich. One day, he looks good, swims freely, fins are flying. Another, he hides, or darts or tucks in his dorsel. One day he eats. The next day he doesn't. Clearly, he's still in jeopardy - at least more so than the others who appear to be handling the high temps well. Should I attempt to QT him or would another change in water chemistry only make things worse? Any advice appreciated.

Keeping the temp at 85*F for 10-14 days is acceptable, I do hope you have increased surface agitation even more. 90Gs are tall tanks and are more difficult to properly oxygenate...temperature de-pleats oxygen. The fish being in a weakened state and under the exposure of some hard core medication require more oxygen...it wouldn't hurt to open the top of the tank some or add an extra airpump.
I've been running an air pump full blast all this time + lowered the water level and the spray bar is hitting the water at a pretty good clip. I just received an additional air pump in the mail yesterday, had thought about adding it and absolutely will now. I also just opened the tank top until I can get the air pump installed tomorrow.

You should also be doing daily WCs of 20-30% when using any medication. Next time keep some AquariSol on hand...it is a very versatile medication which is also fairly safe to use on even weak fish. This is because the copper in AquariSol is chelated...it is less toxic than most treatments.
I HOPE there is no next time but I'll absolutely find the product and get some on hand asap. For now, I've been doing 2 X daily W/C of 20% each to get the carbon out. It's still running between .5 and 1 so will do another change tomorrow.

Another thing to consider is your aquarium's alkalinity. A tank with a low alkalinity will have much more adverse reactions to the exposure of copper than a tank with higher alkalinity levels. This is because low alkalinity yields the copper more toxic.I will confess, I am not well versed on alkalinity issues. I test the PH and it's running about 7.2 - 7.6 Are there other test kits I should have on hand - which leads to the next question ... what do I do about it? WHEN I get this problem solved, I very much want to attempt another angel but I don't want to have the same thing happen to him it as this one.

Thank you again and again, if you have any suggestions for the EBJD, I'm completely open.

MCHRKiller
09-29-2012, 04:12 AM
EBJDs are notoriously difficult fish to keep, its why you commonly see babies for sale at a fairly decent price but larger ones 4"+ go for quite the chunk of change. Very few make it to adulthood, many are plagued with problems, and others randomly just drop dead. There isn't much I can offer you on their care other than keep conditions pristine and feed an excellent diet, adding some food soaks into your regimen wouldnt hurt. Selcon has turned a number of fish around for me, it also boosts appetite.

Hardness/Alkalinity is something you should occasionally test for...in general FW fish keeping terms its nothing to worry about. And honestly if you weren't using copper based medications...you would probably never have to worry about it keeping domestic FW fish.

Some medications you should always have on hand IMO/IME: Aquari-Sol, Metro+, Prazi-Pro, Pima Fix, Mela Fix. This will cover the base for most ailments...and all of these medications are relatively safe. Disease happens, you will encounter a wide array of disease if you plan to stay in the hobby for any length of time. Disease however should primarily only come from newly acquired fish of course.

Keep in mind that a temp of 85*F is stressful in itself...it is a better of two evils. The temperature kills Ich but it also stresses your fish. For now leave things alone, add the new airpump, keep that top cracked open, and keep up with the WCs. Really this is all you can do and probably your best course of action.

In the future....QT all new fish, and treat them for internal parasites(Metro+ and Prazi) while monitoring for external parasites. This is especially true of domestic/farmed Angels...they always seem to have a gutload of bugs :hmm3grin2orange:

Best of luck, and keep up the good work so far.....:22:

fishmommie
09-29-2012, 04:42 AM
[QUOTE=MCHRKiller]EBJDs are notoriously difficult fish to keep, its why you commonly see babies for sale at a fairly decent price but larger ones 4"+ go for quite the chunk of change. Very few make it to adulthood, many are plagued with problems, and others randomly just drop dead. There isn't much I can offer you on their care other than keep conditions pristine and feed an excellent diet, adding some food soaks into your regimen wouldnt hurt. Selcon has turned a number of fish around for me, it also boosts appetite.
Pristine I can and do. I feed a mix of high protein flakes, frozen brine shrimp, sinking and floating cichlid pellets and sinking veggie wafers. What is a food soak? sorry. I have not heard that term before

Some medications you should always have on hand IMO/IME: Aquari-Sol, Metro+, Prazi-Pro, Pima Fix, Mela Fix. This will cover the base for most ailments...and all of these medications are relatively safe. Disease happens, you will encounter a wide array of disease if you plan to stay in the hobby for any length of time. Disease however should primarily only come from newly acquired fish of course.
have the melafix. will order the others from F&S asap. I keep very clean tanks with weekly W/C. 44

Keep in mind that a temp of 85*F is stressful in itself...it is a better of two evils. The temperature kills Ich but it also stresses your fish. For now leave things alone, add the new airpump, keep that top cracked open, and keep up with the WCs. Really this is all you can do and probably your best course of action. will do. thanks

In the future....QT all new fish, and treat them for internal parasites(Metro+ and Prazi) while monitoring for external parasites. This is especially true of domestic/farmed Angels...they always seem to have a gutload of bugs :hmm3grin2orange:
I do have a QT and always QT when adding fish to my 30 gal which is now fully stocked. Never dreamed that adding all new fish to the same new tank would require a QT. Still not certain how I could manage that ... but, I won't have to worry about it again. The 5, the 30, and the 90 are my limit.

BTW - One final quick question: I could set up a 5 gal QT next week (have an extra seeded filter running on my 5 just for a QT) Would it be too early to get another angel and QT it with doses of Metro and Prazi in prep for when my 90 is completely recovered? And if so, any other precautions I should take? Or am I just asking for heartbreak and will most likely lose another one?

thanks

MCHRKiller
09-29-2012, 05:16 AM
5G is a bit small unless the other angelfish is also quite small. I mean you can do it but I feel it would be best to wait until your 90G has been going well for a month before thinking about adding anything else.

Food soaks are just as the name implies...you soak the fish food in it and it delivers extra vitamins and minerals to the fish. Selcon adds extra vitamin C and omega 3s...very beneficial in cichlid keeping especially.

fishmommie
09-29-2012, 05:25 AM
5G is a bit small unless the other angelfish is also quite small. I mean you can do it but I feel it would be best to wait until your 90G has been going well for a month before thinking about adding anything else.

Food soaks are just as the name implies...you soak the fish food in it and it delivers extra vitamins and minerals to the fish. Selcon adds extra vitamin C and omega 3s...very beneficial in cichlid keeping especially.

Got it. I'll wait. the tank just looks so empty without that angel - of course if the BPs and the Sev and the Pleco and the Geo AND the EBJD ever quit hiding from me, it might actually look like there are some fish in there instead of just a big piece of driftwood and some rocks.:scry:

Decided to get the other bubbler going before I go to bed. The kitchen tongs holding it to the bottom and the cord sticking over the front of the tank aren't exactly hi tech or decorative but they'll work for tonight/

thanks again

fishmommie
09-29-2012, 01:40 PM
We apparently had a good night. no casualties this morning. The extra bubbler I added last night and cracking the lid a tad may have helped. Thanks again MCHRKiller for that suggestion. Sounds like a fish store in my office there is so much water agitation and bubbling going on LOL. They all ate like they hadn't had a meal in months - LOVE seeing that. Even the EBJD ate like a little pig and is swimming around like a happy fish instead of a confused and sick fish.The only mystery remains the emperor pleco. He doesn't come out much. I have to assume he's eating brown algae for sustenance or is sneaking out in the night and eating the wafers I drop for him. someone's eating them because they are always gone.
Will do another 25% W/C today and keep on keeping on. Now on day 6 of 85F temp --- hoping 4 more days will do it.

I won't post about the ich issues on this thread again since it was originally about my angel and he's gone. Will add further comment in my 90 gal journal (link in my signature line)
thanks again to everyone who helped and expressed concern.