started fishless cycle - double checking

[fishmommie]

Ok.
To recap: 90 gal FW. aquarium gravel substrate (all washed pre filling). UGF with dual power heads + 1200 cascade canister filter (layered from bottom to top with floss, then carbon, then bio balls, then coarse sponge and floss).
Decor: Driftwood (non tanins). med to large rocks and silk plants. No real plants yet.

Filled tank yesterday. Treated water with Tetra Aquasafe Plus. Temp is 82 F and bubbler and filters are running fine. No lights yet but will get them by the end of the week.

Yesterday I dosed ammonia(ace hardware) as follows: 3 tsp - which brought level to 2 after about 15 min.
So I added another 3 tsp and ammonia upped to 4+ after another 15+ minutes.
So - all is good and I'm waiting several days before I test the water.

Today, however, I have a murky, cloudy tank (water was crystal clear yesterday). Does that mean I'm already getting a bacterial bloom or do I have a problem?

Thanks

[homemadepopcorn]

If its white-cloudy then its a bacterial bloom... You don't need lights on the tank while its cycling, it'll only lead to algae problems.

[fishmommie]

yes - it's white cloudy - like the bloom I got when I cycled my 30 gal (with fish).
So, great! Didn't expect to see it so soon but I guess that's because the ammonia level is so high? When I cycled with fish, I kept the level down as low as possible to avoid hurting the fish so it was a few weeks before I got a bloom. Will never cycle with fish again!
thanks

[Lady Hobbs]

Don't worry about the clouding. Sometimes it happens. It's just due to the imbalance of high ammonia.

LOL I have cycled with fish dozens of times. It really is not hard if stock is kept low and daily water testing is done.

[fishmommie]

thanks L Hobbs.
I'm so excited to FINALLY get this tank started!

You well remember my fish in cycle experience. I tested DAILY and did tons of W/C and it took forever to get that tank cycled - but - I'm sure you'll also remember - I made a ton of newbee mistakes, like rinsing the filter media in tap water. :o(

Hopefully, this will be my last tank that I cycle. 3 is enough .... LOL

[homemadepopcorn]

No problem! Did you add any seeded media? A day seems a little quick for such a huge bloom.

[fishmommie]

Nope. I added nothing to seed. Decided I wanted to do a pure fishless cycle with only ammonia just to see how it works.
And with no lights on the tank it's a little difficult to tell just how murky the water is - I also have a black background (and the tank sits in a corner so 3 sides are dark) so it makes it even darker. I think I'm just dealing with a nice haze. Also thinking that the 82 temp and the extra bubbler might be speeding things up a bit. At least, I hope so.
thanks again.

[KingFisher]

IMO there is no sense running carbon in the filter while you are cycling. I would save it for after if you want to use it at all.

UGFs are generally not used if you plan on adding real plants to the tank because the plant roots just clog them up, in fact, you may want to reconsider using it at all while you are just getting things started. Adding another canister filter would be much more effective filtration.

[Lady Hobbs]

I was just wondering the same thing. You have gravel and other filters on other tanks. Why not steal some media from them? No point in this taking weeks when it could be done almost instantly?

Kingfisher has a great idea and something I totally missed. I would yank that UGF out of there, too.

[homemadepopcorn]

Agreed to the seeding!

[fishmommie]

I realize few here are fans of ugfs. And I understand it's because of concern of nitrates building up beneath them?
I actually did a lot of research (with the help of my LFS person) and he uses nothing but UGFs and has gone away from HOB's and canisters.
I am hoping I have the best of both worlds - with the canister and the ugf's as I don't want to deal with HOB's on this tank. Also the ugfs were relatively inexpensive and the canister is not so I don't want to get another one right now. I'll see how it goes.
So ... I hope I didn't make a mistake but I'm going to stay the course for now.

Hadn't thought about leaving the carbon out of the canister. I guess since the canister is already up and going, I'll just leave as is.

As for seeding - I'm so afraid to disrupt my 30 gallon by removing media from either filter. I have 2 HOBs. an aquean 30 that I have stuffed with a well established carbon filter floss cartridge + a new carbon filter floss cartridge (just cleaned the filter yesterday) and as much aqua clear filter insert foam as I can tuck inside of it.

The 2nd hob is an AquaClear 50. It's been running for around 3 months, I think. I have not yet cleaned it (just swished the media in tank water a couple of times) I have foam, bioballs and carbon (which needs to be pitched, I assume) in that filter. I was planning on cleaning it in two weeks, since I just cleaned my Aquean yesterday.

But now you have me thinking. What could I take from my aquaclear or aquean to seed the 90 and not jeopardize my 30? And since I've already dosed with ammonia up to 4+, is it too late to seed?

thanks again

[Lady Hobbs]

Reverse flow pumps will push the gunk out from the gravel for the other filter to pick it up. Pumps that pull the gunk downward just lays there. I would leave it as it is if you wish but when it comes time you want to plant it, then I would pull it out. Some plants have very large root structures that plug those plates up and don't allow water to circulate under them.

It's more than just due to nitrates many of us don't like them. It's a breeding ground for things we may not want in our tank......like parasites feeding off that gunk. Some people like them but not really my cup of tea unless used for cichlid tanks loaded with rocks and hard to get to for cleaning. And again, with reserve flow pumps.

[fishmommie]

Reverse flow pumps will push the gunk out from the gravel for the other filter to pick it up. Pumps that pull the gunk downward just lays there. I would leave it as it is if you wish but when it comes time you want to plant it, then I would pull it out. Some plants have very large root structures that plug those plates up and don't allow water to circulate under them.

It's more than just due to nitrates many of us don't like them. It's a breeding ground for things we may not want in our tank......like parasites feeding off that gunk. Some people like them but not really my cup of tea unless used for cichlid tanks loaded with rocks and hard to get to for cleaning. And again, with reserve flow pumps.

Ah - I see. I guess time will tell. thanks for the info.

As for your suggestion of seeding, given my situation with my 30 gal (see my note in previous post) do you see any options for me to use any of my media to seed (and not jeopardize my established tank) and if so, what might that be? If I could speed this up, you bet, I'd love to, but I'm afraid to muck anything up :o)
thanks

[fishmommie]

Hi
Okay. Started fishless cycle 8-26. Filters running. temp at 82F. air bubbler on.
Fed ammonia to get the reading up to 4+ (dosed with 6 tsp to eventually get Ammonia up to 4)
Left the tank alone since. Added nothing since, no water changes, have not dosed with ammonia since the original dosing on 8-26. the tank has just been setting there working.

Started taking ammonia readings on 8-31. no change until today.

Today, 9-3, Ammonia reads between 2 and 4 on API chart. So it's dropped just a little
BUT ... Ta da! - I have a .25 Nitrite reading! Yea

So - now what? Sticky instructions say:

After a few days, began to test for ammonia levels. Nothing will happen for several days because the Nitrosomona bacteria needs to grow.
As the ammonia level decreases you will began to start testing daily for Ammonia and Nitrite levels. When you began to see nitrites on your tester, then only dose one/half of your starting dose. One time each day only.


This is where I'm confused. Since the ammonia has barely dropped and nitrites are barely registering, do I dose ammonia now or wait until the ammonia drops to 2 and the nitrites are a little higher?

Don't want to mess it up now :o)

THANKS

[homemadepopcorn]

When you see nitrites in your tank, that means that its time to start dosing half the previous amount of ammonia that you were dosing before. Wait until your ammonia is 0, or close enough, and dose.

Eventually, it'll work like clockwork and you'll need to be dosing ammonia daily.

[fishmommie]

When you see nitrites in your tank, that means that its time to start dosing half the previous amount of ammonia that you were dosing before. Wait until your ammonia is 0, or close enough, and dose.

Eventually, it'll work like clockwork and you'll need to be dosing ammonia daily.

Ah ... so even though the sticky currently reads:
When you began to see nitrites on your tester, then only dose one/half of your starting dose. One time each day only. ...

I actually need to wait until ammonia hits 0 again before I dose at 1/2 of my starting dose.
Sorry to be so obtuse, but the sticky implies that as soon as I see nitrites I should start with my 1/2 doses of ammonia - that's what was confusing me ... and clearly, I'm easily confused(blush).

Okay. Think I've got it now ... but to make certain, is this right?

After I start seeing nitrites AND ammonia has dropped to 0, then dose one/half of my starting dose of ammonia. Then, on every day that ammonia drops to 0, 1/2 dose again through the nitrite spike until nitrites also drop to 0. When both Ammonia and Nitrites are 0 and I also see nitrates, then the tank is cycled.

Have I got it??

THANKS!!

[tate8]

After I start seeing nitrites AND ammonia has dropped to 0, then dose one/half of my starting dose of ammonia. Then, on every day that ammonia drops to 0, 1/2 dose again through the nitrite spike until nitrites also drop to 0. When both Ammonia and Nitrites are 0 and I also see nitrates, then the tank is cycled.

Have I got it??

Yes...you have it

[homemadepopcorn]

Yes, it would be silly to dose ammonia while there is still ammonia in the tank now wouldnt it?

[fishmommie]

Yes, it would be silly to dose ammonia while there is still ammonia in the tank now wouldnt it?

But you are assuming that I think logically ... a stretch on a good day.:help:
And I'm 'one of those' who reads everything literally. So if it says - when you see nitrates, dose, I figure I'm supposed to dose - even if it doesn't make sense.

I can make life very difficult without hardly trying sometimes. It's a gift. Or not.
big sigh.

Thanks again all.

[fishmommie]

Quick update.
I have gorgeous violet nitrites today - looks like about a 2 reading.
Ammonia is down to 2.
For the heck of it I tested for nitrates and there is even a trace showing up.

So ... all is proceeding beautifully.

Will wait for that ammonia to drop to 0 and start with my half dose.

This fishless cycle is SOOOO much better and easier for me but especially for the fish. Love not doing the many, many water changes, love that I don't have to worry about the fish.

At this rate, I'm hoping the cycle will be complete in a couple more weeks.
Thanks again everyone. I bow to you :yellowbow:

[homemadepopcorn]

And I'm 'one of those' who reads everything literally. So if it says - when you see nitrates, dose, I figure I'm supposed to dose - even if it doesn't make sense.

Not necessarily a bad thing lol. Better than reading it and completely ignoring it.

If you see tons of nitrites you're well on your way there. Should get that stocking list ready soon.

[fishmommie]

Not necessarily a bad thing lol. Better than reading it and completely ignoring it.

If you see tons of nitrites you're well on your way there. Should get that stocking list ready soon.

Don't worry. LOL I've had plenty of time to think about this and have badgered the forum about suggestions. Have changed my mind many times but think I finally have my list narrowed down.
2 blood parrots, 1 severum (either a gold, a green or turquoise - my LFS just got some turquoise in and they're pretty cool) 1 electric blue JD (my LFS will take him back and give me full credit if I have any aggression problems) and I'm going to try 3 angels. I know I may be asking for trouble with 3 but, again my LFS (a mom and pop store) will work with me on them. They're really terrific. All the fish I'm getting are in the 2 - 3 inch range so still juvies but with some nice growth and color and young enough, I hope, to grow up and get used to each other. I have a lot of rocks and caves and wood and flora for them to hide in when they need time outs.
I'll see how everyone gets along before I worry about a plec or cats. Also saw a gorgeous gold algae eater that was really appealing.
Soo many fish ... not enough water ...:fish:

[homemadepopcorn]

Soo many fish ... not enough water ...:fish:

Sadly true.


I'm not exactly sure, but aggresive or semi-aggresive cichlids might take a liking to your angel's fins. A pleco might also suck the slime coat off. If it were me, I'd keep the angels out of it. But your research might turn up something different.

[fishmommie]

thanks. I'll continue to research. But it's difficult to come up with what seems to be a failsafe compatibility plan. Every time I think I have it nailed, another potential issue comes up :o() A pleco in this tank is not a priority for me. But if algae becomes an issue, I'll have to do something.
I started this whole journey wanting angels but have found so many other fish I would love to have as well.
I know the parrots are mild mannered except when spawning and I know the severums are fairly well behaved. What I've read about the Electric Blues are that they are smaller and not as aggressive as the JD's - especially if kept singley and make a fairly good community tank mate. I'm also figuring that I have enough nooks and crannys and caves and plants that territory won't become an issue.
Most have advised that the parrots, severum and angel mix should work - but I hadn't thrown the EBJD's into the mix at that point and they are so gorgeous I just have to try growing one out.
I may end up passing on the angels - sadly - and opt for the pleco and possibly a gravel eater.
Maybe a nice school of mature congo tetras would work to help fill out the tank?
At one point Cliff had (maybe still has) 2 firemouths, 1 severum, 14 congos, 9 corys and 2 BNPs in a 90.
I realize I'm not talking about the same mix but I want a well populated tank without over doing things.
there I go ... off on another direction again.

[fishmommie]

Hi all
to recap.
8-26 Started 90 gal fw fishless cycle. Dosed with 6 tsp of ammonia to get a 4 ammonia reading. Bubbler going. Filters running. Temp 82 F

9-3 A dropped to 2, Trites = trace. did nothing.
9-4 A = 2, Trites = 1, trates = trace. did nothing
9-5 A = 2, Trites = 5, trates = 10. did nothing
9-6 A = 1, Trites = 5, didn't check trates. did nothing
9-7 A = 0, Trites = 5, trates = 40. Dosed with 2 tsp ammonia which brought ammonia back to 2.
9-8 A = 0, Trites = 2 (or 4 or the chart is so difficult to read), Trates = 20. Dosed Ammonia back to 2 (took 3 tsp this time)

Does this all look right to you? Was surprised to see nitrates so early, also surprised that they dropped when the nitrites dropped but maybe that's normal. Realize the trites still need to drop to 0 with the Ammonia but it appears the spike has peaked. Is it possible I'm fairly close to this cycle being complete after only 2 weeks?

Thanks

[fishmommie]

Hi. My fishless cycle is moving along well. Started showing Trites 9-3, they spiked to +5. on 9-5 and have been dropping incrementally every other day since. Now down to .5. Started 1/2 dosing of Ammoni(3 tsp) on 9-7 when ammonia dropped to 0. Have been dosing 3 tsp Ammonia daily to bring back to 2 every day and it drops to 0 again next day. Nitrates are running between 40 - 80 every day. So all is good.

Today, however, when I dosed my 3 tsp of ammonia, it only took it back up to 1, not 2. I suspect that is because today (first time since I started this) I had to add 3 gallons of water to top off tank because my spray bar was getting pretty noisy. Based on other posts I've read, I treated the 3 gallons with enough Prime to handle the whole tank.

So, I figure it's the Prime that reduced the Ammonia reading to 1?
And if so, is it best to just leave the tank alone today and not worry about getting the ammonia up to 2? I'm afraid to use too much ammonia as it could cause the nitrites to start rising again.

All advice appreciated.

[imma24]

I wouldn't worry personally - just wait for the ammonia to drop again to 0 and add more - 1-2 should be what you're aiming for when you add again.

[fishmommie]

I wouldn't worry personally - just wait for the ammonia to drop again to 0 and add more - 1-2 should be what you're aiming for when you add again.

Great! that's what I was hoping to hear. Also hoping I'll be cycled by the weekend or by Monday at the latest. fingers crossed thumbs2:
Thanks so much for getting back to me.

[fishmommie]

started fishless cycle 8-26.
the trite spike was 9-5, then they dropped steadily to .5 where I'm stalled. Is this normal to be stuck in trite limbo for this long?
BTW: Trates bouncing around between 20 and 80+

Just double checking to see if I should be doing something different.
Still dosing back to 2 ammonia daily. Should I drop that back to 1?

Or just be patient?
thanks

[imma24]

You could try that - you really just need enough ammonia to feed the bacteria already present - hopefully you will see nitrites fall to 0 soon!

[fishmommie]

You could try that - you really just need enough ammonia to feed the bacteria already present - hopefully you will see nitrites fall to 0 soon!
again. appreciate it. i'll dose to 1 today
thanks

[fishmommie]

Hi again
I'm concerned that at 3 weeks I'm stalled on my cycle
Recapping so you don't have to read back through all posts:
Started fishless cycle 8-26 and have followed sticky instructions to the letter.

First trites showed up 9-3 & spiked to 5 on 9-5.
A dropped to 0 on 9-7 so that's when started 1/2 dosing back to 2 each morning.

Trites stayed at 5 for a couple of days then started dropping incrementally until they hit .5 on 9-11 - where they've stayed until today and today they actually went back up to 1.

Yesterday, because I seemed to be stalled, dropped A dose back to 1, hoping it might crack the stall. But as you can see, trites actually took a little bounce back up.

BTW: Trates bouncing around between 20 and 80. I know I have not over dosed the ammonia.

So - any suggestions? Should I dose back to 2 today? Or only dose to 1? Not dose at all? Or should I maybe do W/C? and if so, how much?:help:

Really appreciate the help.

[KevinVA]

Hi again
I'm concerned that at 3 weeks I'm stalled on my cycle
Recapping so you don't have to read back through all posts:
Started fishless cycle 8-26 and have followed sticky instructions to the letter.

First trites showed up 9-3 & spiked to 5 on 9-5.
A dropped to 0 on 9-7 so that's when started 1/2 dosing back to 2 each morning.

Trites stayed at 5 for a couple of days then started dropping incrementally until they hit .5 on 9-11 - where they've stayed until today and today they actually went back up to 1.

Yesterday, because I seemed to be stalled, dropped A dose back to 1, hoping it might crack the stall. But as you can see, trites actually took a little bounce back up.

BTW: Trates bouncing around between 20 and 80. I know I have not over dosed the ammonia.

So - any suggestions? Should I dose back to 2 today? Or only dose to 1? Not dose at all? Or should I maybe do W/C? and if so, how much?:help:

Really appreciate the help.

If your goal is to keep your Ammonia at 1ppm until the tank is cycled, then continue to dose only 1ppm. I had dealt with the same or similar situation, when I was cycling my 75gal. The readings bounced around a bit between the Trites and Trates, then Trites read at 5ppm for at least a week or two, until they began to subside again, with an increase in Trates. When your trates are ready, they'll probably read above 80. Mine didn't read above 80 until the cycle was actually complete. You'll know when it's up. Just be patient... or try to be. Lord knows I'm not. ;P

[fishmommie]

If your goal is to keep your Ammonia at 1ppm until the tank is cycled, then continue to dose only 1ppm. I had dealt with the same or similar situation, when I was cycling my 75gal. The readings bounced around a bit between the Trites and Trates, then Trites read at 5ppm for at least a week or two, until they began to subside again, with an increase in Trates. When your trates are ready, they'll probably read above 80. Mine didn't read above 80 until the cycle was actually complete. You'll know when it's up. Just be patient... or try to be. Lord knows I'm not. ;P

LOL. I promised myself I'd be patient this time - but it's not working. At Lady Hobbs' advice I did a big W/C to see if it would rattle something loose then dosed back to 1 - just as you suggested. We shall see what this coming week brings - of course, the hope is for 0's in the Ammonia and Trites dept.
Thanks!

[fishmommie]

Thanks for all who helped - especially Hobbs - . My 90 is cycled and FISH ARE IN!!! After being a bit stalled, LH suggested a big W/C to shake something loose. So I did that yesterday and this morning: Tada A = 0, Trites = 0, Trates = 80. So I did another huge W/C, got the trates down to 10 and went shopping - it's exactly 3 weeks from the start of my fishless cycle.

Have been saving for this tank stock for a long time. Brought home 2 blood parrots (I think I'll be getting another), 1 gold severum, 1 marble angel (blue and silver and white), 1 Electric Blue Jack Dempsey (he's on trial and if he gets aggressive, he's gone) but splurged on an Emperor Plec - L240. He is gorgeous.

I would post photos but I have seen hide nor hair of them since I drip acclimated them and put them in the tank LOL. Hopefully, they'll get over being shy soon and come out of their corners and caves and plant leaves and drift wood and I'll snap some shots. I may have given them too many places to hide :o)

anyway, thanks again!

[KevinVA]

Thanks for all who helped - especially Hobbs - . My 90 is cycled and FISH ARE IN!!! After being a bit stalled, LH suggested a big W/C to shake something loose. So I did that yesterday and this morning: Tada A = 0, Trites = 0, Trates = 80. So I did another huge W/C, got the trates down to 10 and went shopping - it's exactly 3 weeks from the start of my fishless cycle.

Have been saving for this tank stock for a long time. Brought home 2 blood parrots (I think I'll be getting another), 1 gold severum, 1 marble angel (blue and silver and white), 1 Electric Blue Jack Dempsey (he's on trial and if he gets aggressive, he's gone) but splurged on an Emperor Plec - L240. He is gorgeous.

I would post photos but I have seen hide nor hair of them since I drip acclimated them and put them in the tank LOL. Hopefully, they'll get over being shy soon and come out of their corners and caves and plant leaves and drift wood and I'll snap some shots. I may have given them too many places to hide :o)

anyway, thanks again!

Congrats! Glad to see things worked out. That was quick. =] I think the next time I hit a stall moment, I'm going to try a large water change, because I've noticed this has helped move things around for several people on here.

[fishmommie]

Congrats! Glad to see things worked out. That was quick. =] I think the next time I hit a stall moment, I'm going to try a large water change, because I've noticed this has helped move things around for several people on here.

It sure did the trick for me! Now if they will just come out of hiding we'll all be happy :hmm3grin2orange: