Why don't loaches do well in salt and what consequences?

[WendysWorld]

Hey,

Have read lots of info on how loaches and other sensitive fish "do not do well with salt" added into the aquarium, yet no explanation as to WHY do not do well or what harm they could possibly experience. And often the websites or forums say they can tolerate only small amounts of salt, "but watch for signs of stress", yet no explanation of what activity constitues a sign of distress! Yet I can see why some might choose to use salt added to the aquarium, in smaller doses, rather than other medications as the choice of the lesser of two evils.

Maybe I am just looking for more information than necessary, but I can't find anywhere where it explains WHY certain "sensitive' or "scaleless" fish do not take salt well. Are they sensitive in that they don't have scales to protect them? Or sensitive in breathing or their tolerance to water parameters or what????

How can/does salt harm them? What happens to them? How to know if they show signs of stress if don't know what signs to look for? Especially the loaches. These guys can go from motionless and barely breathing and scare you are they dead to spastic rubber bands flying all over the tank and rapid breathing. I see a wide variety in the way their coloring can appear and yet be normal also.

So what would I look for as signs of stress due to salt?

P.S> There is no salt in the tank now. Just asking for future reference.

[mermaidwannabe]

Loaches are scaleless fish, hence they're more sensitive to the absorption of salt than fish with scales.

I see no reason to add salt to a healthy aquarium. I've always felt that if one is going to have salt in an aquarium, they should set up a brackish or saltwater tank. A freshwater tank is freshwater.

The signs of stress in a loach depends on the species as well as general signs of stress that go for all of them -- they stop eating (especially dojo loaches, which are normally voracious eaters), their color fades, they're chronically listless when before they were active, they develop signs of disease on their skin, they begin swimming oddly or laying sideways or upside down on the substrate -- all these symptoms are signs of stress.

My personal policy -- no salt, ever. Simply not necessary and I don't think it's really good for most freshwater fish. Some possible exceptions might be mollies or even guppies, if they're acclimated slowly and carefully -- but why do it in a freshwater tank?

-- mermaidwannabe

[smaug]

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=31554&highlight=salt
Read through this,maybe it will help understand and maybe not. Very often advice such as what you refer to is simple regergataion or parroting and the giver has no first hand experiance with the subject at hand. Gb has a fairly decent write up in the provided link.
As for loaches being especially sensitive to salt I really dont know if thats true or not. It is also said that they are more sensitive to meds like ich meds,I can say from actual experiance that has not proved true in my use of ich med. I keep a large amount of "scaleless" fish and have used meds several times at full strength with no loss of any scaleless life. To be honest salt is a feel good med touted by lfs to sell salt. It has no use as a thereapeutic additive and minimal use as a ich fighter if used correctly and later removed through large water changes.

[WendysWorld]

Well that was without a doubt interesting and contradictory to other research! Well worth the read. Thanks!

[Cermet]

Salt has no place in the average fresh water aquarium (standard fish and good conditions.) That said, it is very useful if nitrites are non-zero. For discus, it can be a great life saver and all around tonic. Has a use for ick but why?? Meds are far better. Mollies (wild) can use it but tank breed don't really require it. Also, with open wounds on the fish salt could be helpful (again, meds might work better here - open call) but I'd be careful with it.

[smaug]

Bigger water changes and good grqvel maint are the best tonic for nitrates.

[mommy1]

Cermet, I see no reason to put salt in a freshwater tank. Prevention is the best medicine and most problems can be prevented with clean water. There should not be nitrites in a properly maintained tank, and if there were, bringing in clean water through water changes does just as much if not more than salt. IME (<- that's for Smaug :ssmile:), I had ich in one of my tanks one time and I used quick cure ich meds. All signs of ich were gone with in two days. Of course I completed the treatment for longer but I see no reason to force my fish to suffer through high temps and the skin irritation of salt to speed up the lifecycle of ich when medicine is so much faster and water changes are so soothing to the fish. Wild caught molly's do well in freshwater as well, I have some in my tank and they were caught in a freshwater creek near my home as fry and have grown nicely in my tank and breed quite often. In fact nearly every river here has molly's. As a euryhdine species they are highly adaptive to varying salinity, but they absolutely do not need salt in their water. On to open wounds, again clean water is the best medicine. I have a group of wild caught texas cichlids that are constantly scraping themselves on rocks during their attempts to redecorate their home and from the occasional territorial scuffle. These wounds heal completely in a day, two at the most. Why, because their water is kept pristine.
I'm sure there must be a good use for salt in a freshwater aquarium, but in all my years of keeping fish I have not come across one.

[WendysWorld]

So it seems, given the choice, at least those fishkeepers that have replied to my question, choose not to use salt for most any reason, especially as a medicine????

Then what, for example, would you use to treat the tank, if you had to treat ALL THE TANK at once for ich??? Please keep in mind the fish I keep----neon tetras (sensitive fish) and Pangio kuhli loaches (scaleless and sensitive). Please give EXACT MANUFACTURER NAME and PRODUCT NAME when recommending. It is important to me to know what you have USED in YOUR EXPERIENCE to successfully treat ich in a community aquarium that contains scaleless fish.

I love my loaches most, and would choose to get rid of all other fish and keep them instead if forced to choose between them. But kuhli/coolie loaches are the most difficult fish to care for when it comes to disease. And limited in my country with products.

Fortunately, I do NOT need any medicine now. But I want to be prepared when need it.

[mommy1]

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/images/graphics/apquickcure.jpg

[Lady Hobbs]

This is why we are all individuals with different ideas and why it is difficult in this hobby to grab onto an idea and run with it.

In my particular case, QuickCure cost me a whole lot of tetra's before it finally cured the Ick. I didn't care for it at all but I did have good luck with Ick Guard. (They also make Ick Guard for Sensitive Fish) which is probably nothing more than a weaker solution.

Just as you have numerous people who prefer a particular Ick Medication, you will have different views on how to treat Ick with loaches in the tank.
One person will warn against using medication of any kind with loaches and the next person will recommend it.

Just as salt can be harsh to the skin of loaches, so can some of the medications. You decide what method you want to use and if it works for you, then great. If the fish are stressed during treatment, do a large water change and try something else.

[Cermet]

Cermet, I see no reason to put salt in a freshwater tank. ... I'm sure there must be a good use for salt in a freshwater aquarium, but in all my years of keeping fish I have not come across one.

Not sure what you think I wrote but I agreed with you in my post. I do not feel salt should be used by most people without a good reason. I also only felt ick should be treated by meds, not salt. :11:

If you think salt shouldn't be used in a discus tank, that is another matter and it absolutely should (when the fish is sick, not eating, injured or when not sure what is wrong)and is used by ALL professional breeders and knowledgeable users for these and even other reasons.

Salt absolutely does have a use for injured fish - like with gill burn from nitrites and many people here have told me that and I have used it. Even seen that one in books.

Again, I do not feel the average aquarium should have salt, and in that I agree with you. :hmm3grin2orange:

[smaug]

Quick Cure will do a fine safe job treating a whole tank ich outbreak,even with sensitive fish. and even if used at full strength. Here is how,split the full dose up into half morning and half evening. As Lh has experianced fish such as neons are tough to treat with any process. Its not nesacarily the med that does the killing but a combo of the ich ,stress from being ill,ill from being stressed and the med can be the final straw. More then likely that neon would have died anyway no matter what treatment was used.IME,,,,,,of course:22:

[smaug]

Quick Cure will do a fine safe job treating a whole tank ich outbreak,even with sensitive fish. and even if used at full strength. Here is how,split the full dose up into half morning and half evening. As Lh has experianced fish such as neons are tough to treat with any process. Its not nesacarily the med that does the killing but a combo of the ich ,stress from being ill,ill from being stressed and the med can be the final straw. More then likely that neon would have died anyway no matter what treatment was used.IME,,,,,,of course:22:
Gill burn from nitrates! Holy crap ,this hasnt happened to your fish has it Cermet?

[Lady Hobbs]

Actually, I bought new rainbows. They got ick and was sharing a tank with a bunch of tetra's. None of them were neons and none of them were infected. But as in all aspects of this hobby, we can sometimes have different results.

[mermaidwannabe]

That you don't need meds now but wish to be prepared for the future is a good thing, and prudent.

By continuing to maintain your tank, avoiding overfeeding, and being sure to purchase only healthy new fish, quarantining them if you can, and acclimating them properly, you may never need to use meds in your tank. Having them on hand just in case provides peace of mind, but remember that their shelf life may be limited.

If you do have to medicate at some time in the future, when you have finished, you'll need to remove the medicines from your tank, and you'll need fresh carbon in your filter for that. Until then, no carbon is necessary and extra surface for biofiltration will be of benefit.

It's nice to be prepared, and even nicer if you don't need to use the meds you stock up on. It may seem wasteful to have them and not use them, but if you end up needing them, you'll be glad you got them.

Prevention is your best protection against diseases. Avoid overstocking the tank and religiously keep up the water changes, cleaning the substrate on a regular schedule.

What kind of aquarium supplies catalogs are available in your country? Can you get Foster and Smith or Pet Solutions? These are good sources for acquiring the products you may need, if you're unable to get them through your local retail establishments. Shipping may be expensive, however ...

Best of success to you ...

-- mermaidwannabe

[f1shg33kz]

In my opinion, quick cure is bad to use. It contains malachite green which is some nasty stuff. Malachite green is toxic to fish and has an accumulative effect. The substance can persist in fish for a long time. It has been banned in the US since the early 80's for use in fish intended for consumption because its a carcinogen.

There's a lengthy report on the effects of malachite green done by a veterinary college I can track down if you'd like.

[smaug]

Many meds are toxic to the patient,since we dont intend to eat our pet fish it is safe to say that its carcinogenic affect is a moot point. Salt causes high blood pressure in humans,IME [I have hbp] it is a bad thing to use salt:sconfused:

[dbosman]

So it seems, given the choice, at least those fishkeepers that have replied to my question, choose not to use salt for most any reason, especially as a medicine????
...
I love my loaches most, and would choose to get rid of all other fish and keep

Freshwater fish are freshwater fish.
Why anyone would chose to expose them to a toxin is the question you need to ask before requiring "proof" that too many websites are promoting outdated, inaccurate propaganda.

What we call Ich is a parasite with a known life cycle. If your community tank gets exposed to Ich it's your fault. If you care about your loaches, don't bring parasites into your tank.

If the colloquial "you" can't quarantine fish for a month or more, then purchase fish from a store that does quarantine and promotes that fact. Yes, that costs more and may require a road trip.

[WendysWorld]

I still feel salt and heat were my best options at that time to treat what I thought was ich since had no other medications to use that knew for sure would not harm the loaches even more than the salt.

I REALLY appreciate EVERYONE's advice and input. Feel a bit at a loss here. This thread was started out of admission that the first problem is my inability to correctly diagnosis to begin with. Obviously second problem for any beginner, and more complicated for me in a foreign country, is choosing which medicine is the best to use.

While fish keeping may have a variety of opinions, that each person BY THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE learns from------I AM NEW HERE!!! Completely dependent on your advice for what best to do. Only from trial and error of applying your advice combined with what products I have available to me here in my country, can I later form my own opinions on preferred methods.

In view of my difficulty to diagnose correctly in the first place, likely the last episode of "ich" wasn't "ich" at all, but something else I may never know what.

In any case, the last episode of "ich" I treated with salt and high temps. Though whatever it was (ich or something else) has been gone for more than a week in the main tank, and all the salt removed by large water changes, I worried the entire time about the loaches. I felt clueless what signs of stress due to the salt to look for, how to know how they were reacting poorly to the salt or not----which is why posted this thread for my future reference.

However, I really want to continue to keep loaches. So trusting you folks to give me your ideas of alternative medications to treat ich that kuhli loaches can tolerate for future use. I cannot buy either of the meds you folks suggested in Lithuania. But I WILL BUY BOTH and order from internet!!!!

Also planning to buy a refractometer and learn how to do the salt dip/bath that Dave66 swears by and explains how to do in one of his stickies.

Gradually, as gain my own experience through trial and error, I will draw my own conclusions what works best for the fish I keep and in a country with different fishkeeping practices/standards/product availability. In the meantime, I really depend on each of your input, advice, experience, to help me succeed. Thank you very much for your help!

[WendysWorld]

What we call Ich is a parasite with a known life cycle. If your community tank gets exposed to Ich it's your fault. If you care about your loaches, don't bring parasites into your tank.

If the colloquial "you" can't quarantine fish for a month or more, then purchase fish from a store that does quarantine and promotes that fact. Yes, that costs more and may require a road trip.

Thank you for your frank opinion. I appreciate it. However, just for the record, first of all, the fish stores here:
1. Do NOT quarantine any new fish. Shipped in, received, dumped into show tank, and sold same day.
2. Fish stores do not offer refunds or returns for any fish that get sick, die, or I simply wish to return.... no exceptions, no excuses, already tried arguing that.

3. in addition, this last bout of "ich" has since been discovered it was likely not ick at all.

4. and finally, every new beginner has to start somewhere. Your first tank is your first tank.... that's it just plain and simple! You have to have one tank to start your first fish in somewhere!! Which still leaves at some point your first fish as a beginner going into a tank together! That first tank then, is in a sense, your first quarantine tank. It only makes sense that your first tank is your quarantine tank to begin with. While they are being properly quarantined in your first tank, you can be fishless cycling a second tank that will then become your quarantine tank for new fish. And hence the cycle of good fishkeeping begins of a true "show tank" and a "quarantine tank".

Though, admittedly, I made the mistake to BEGIN with loaches at the same time as other fish, without realizing they would need to be treated differently for certain illnesses. My own fault.....but much of my mistakes were based on advice from local fish stores. Which is why I highly value the advice now getting on this forum.

[mermaidwannabe]

Diagnosing fish diseases isn't always that easy. The best thing is to not have to try by keeping fish healthy.

To learn what signifies stress in your Kuhli loaches, I think there's an article somewhere on this forum about loaches which include Kuhlis. Also, typing in "Kuhli loaches" in your browser's search engine might take you to some good information on what their normal behaviors are, and what to look for in the way of abnormal behavior that may be caused by stress.

Loaches are fun little fish, and sometimes their antics are no more than playfulness, yet if they seem out of the ordinary they may cause alarm. Dojo loaches like to shoot up to the surface suddenly to grab a bubble of air, as they can store oxygen and survive outside of the water for a brief period of time. Someone unfamiliar with dojo behaviors might find this disconcerting and wonder if the loach is well (if you have these, keep a tight lid on your tank or they WILL ESCAPE!).

I suggest reading up on Kuhlis and learn what to generally expect from them as natural behaviors. You will then be in a better position to know if they are acting unnaturally. Of course, there'll always be that one odd individual who will defy the norm and still be perfectly okay ... The main things to watch for are faded color and a profound change in eating habits, especially when fed the usual foods they are accustomed to, as well as skin lesions. These things are never normal in healthy fish. Extreme listlessness in normally active fish can also be a clue that something is wrong, especially if the lethargy continues over a prolonged period of time.

Please feel free to ask us anything. You are in a learning process, and it's obvious you are seeking reliable information. It's a little tough when there's conflicting information and viewpoints to know which way to go when trying to implement advice, and then it just has to be trial and error to learn what works in your tank, with your fish.

A rule of thumb that I always follow when using any kind of medicines, for myself or my pets, is to use as conservative a dose as possible to start with. If the condition is caught early enough, full dosage may not be necessary. And the smallest dose that works will usually result in minimal or no adverse side effects.

By the way, welcome to the forum! How is the weather over there in Lithuania?


-- mermaidwannabe

[WendysWorld]

Thanks, mermaidwannabe! Replies in red below, within your quote.


Diagnosing fish diseases isn't always that easy. The best thing is to not have to try by keeping fish healthy. Since I made some mistakes in the beginning, that continue to come back and haunt me now....such as starting with loaches to begin with....the task of keeping them healthy to start with has seemed almost impossible despite my best efforts. Finally the main tank seems healthy enough, but it required two episodes of ich treatment....which the second may not have been ich at all, and netting out and disposing of several sick and other suspicious fish. Although realize that may be a logical and normal thing to happen in fishkeeping, I'm not accustomed to the idea to dispose of a fish, or any little creature, without trying to first help it. I need to change my opinion of course. My thinking is not reasonable and even opposite of what would be most compassionate. But it isn't easy.

Loaches are fun little fish, and sometimes their antics are no more than playfulness, yet if they seem out of the ordinary they may cause alarm. Dojo loaches .........man you got that right! They are hilarious! I did tons of research on the internet about all sorts of behaviours in fish and decided we must have loaches! Unfortunately, my research did not go beyond their behaviour and what type of water parameters and decor they needed. I read that they were scaleless, but never connected that this detail meant different medical needs and not a good starter fish. The local pet stores were more than willing to start my tank cycling with whatever fish I wanted and as many of them and assured me the bacteria booster "would speed up the cycling process without harm to the fish". Since then, I realize this was a mistake, and is continuing to haunt and hinder my success.

On the topic of Dojo "weather" loaches, my husband is an absolute nutty freak about weather observation. So when we were discussing what fish to start my hobby with, we discovered this weather loach. It seemed the best combination of his most loved hobby, and my new hobby. And oh my goodness what hilarious antics we saw on the internet videos! We wanted one really badly.....even researched how to ship or bring it in....but can't get them in Lithuania....short of illegal smuggling, which of course isn't an option. : (

Please feel free to ask us anything. You are in a learning process, and it's obvious you are seeking reliable information. .......Thank you very much. It is more and more obvious to me there are major differences in fishkeeping no matter where you are. Ultimately I prefer to have as many opinions and ideas as possible, research the logic, research the ingredients in medicines, research availability and shipping cost, then decide for myself what to try first.

A rule of thumb that I always follow when using any kind of medicines, for myself or my pets, is to use as conservative a dose as possible to start with...... Exactly!! For ourselves, we usually prefer a more "natural" method first, within reason of course. Example, salt garggle for a sore throat, garlic when need natural antibiotic, aloe plant for a burn, etc. So, right or wrong, salt and heat seemed the more "natural" approach, or perhaps more correctly----the least harmful. However, I still want to be prepared for the future, in case it would happen again, how to treat all the fishes together, with a medicine----the most mild, yet effective. Must wait for now to buy and set up, but seriously considering keeping the loaches in a seperate tank all their own or with just one little fancy guppy like a betta.

If the condition is caught early enough,..... I watch my fish like a hawk. Don't have many and only one tank that is no longer heavily decorated as before....so it is easy to find and watch every fish for a few minutes. Head count every day. So hopefully, whatever these three neons in isolation have now, was caught early enough and did not leave behind anything for the rest of the fish to catch. At least, that is my main concern. If felt 100% sure I would not be facing the same disease in the main tank in the future, I would likely just dispose of the three neons. But since not sure, more of the same illness won't crop up in the near future, I am using the three neons as a test group to help cure them---not just for their own benefit, but for the future good of the remaining fish.

By the way, welcome to the forum! How is the weather over there in Lithuania? Thanks for asking. Lithuania is a small country near the sea. It is very similar, nearly the same, as Ohio where we are from. Very often the same weather parent's are having, we are having the same. Not much adjustment for us there!


-- mermaidwannabe

[mermaidwannabe]

So, you're originally from Ohio! No wonder you communicate so fluently in English . . . Sad about not being able to get dojo loaches. They're my all-time favorite aquarium fish. Mine are spoiled rotten.

--mermaid

[WendysWorld]

Mine would be spoiled too. And so far, doing a good job trying to spoil the pangio loaches. The other fish grab all the good food at the top before it reaches them. So have discovered putting the blood worms, still partially frozen, as well as other types of food, directly into their little favorite hide-aways, helps them get their share.