GBRs are dying...

[pjaldave]

So I bought 6 GBR and have sexed them well, 3 males and 3 females. I quarantined them for 3 weeks, during that time, one male died, about why, it is still unknown to me. Extremely rapid breathing, but not gasping for air and losing coloration. No ammonia, no nitrites and 10 nitrates in the QT.

So After 3 weeks of quarantine, I did put the 5 remaining GBRs into my community tank (100G) with all the other occupants. They lived well for a week, then 2 pairs spawned. Not sure of what happened to the eggs but most likely eaten, because i can't see any wigglers.

After spawning, one of the female died, she had her left pectoral fin attached to her body for a day, i did research but nothing came up. Then just today, I saw my two remaining men doing the same thing as the one died in the QT. So I think, they too will die.

Anyone experienced here knows what's happening?

Parameters in 100G:

ammonia = 0ppm
nitrites = 0ppm
nitrates = 10-20ppm
pH = 7.6
gH and kH = both at 13 degrees
temp = 28C

[ridgenesss]

Just curious, are the water parameters in your qt tank the same as your main tank? As far as ph, gh and such.

Did you drip acclimate then? I wanna say GBR's thrive in ph levels of around 5.0-7.0

[pjaldave]

Oh right, forgot to mention the params in the QT. They're all the same with pH, kH and gH. Temp was at constantly 30C for first 2 weeks and lowered it to 28 for the 3rd week to get them acclimated to the temp of my display tank.

I did drip acclimate them into the QT and into the display tank. People will tell that GBR that are bred in captivity will adapt to higher pH well.

[ScottishFish]

Rams aren't the most boisterous of fish and don't generally get to the food first. Could it be that in the 100g they aren't getting enough food and are just wasting away? What are their tank mates?

[pjaldave]

I make sure they get food by dropping a piece of algae wafers which are cut into pieces in the day and shrimp pellets before turning the lights off. So that they don't need to compete for the flakes. And yes, I see them nibbling at the food before I turn the lights off.

Tankmates are, congo tetras, cherry barbs, glowlight tetras, white skirt tetras, zebra danios, julii corys and SAEs. And, well, shrimps and Otos.

[Lady Hobbs]

awww....sorry you are losing these fish. I know how excited you were to get them, too.

[pjaldave]

i know LH... this sucks.. the thing that sucks most is I don't have any clue of what's happening to them :(

[ScottishFish]

Could they be stressed? Danios are fast fish

[pjaldave]

If they are stressed, so be the remaining females. But the females are in good shape and hovering around the tank. And they don't breathe as rapidly as the males.

I know danios are fast fish, but they stay on the top part of the tank, and the GBRs stays mostly on the mid-bottom part.

[KingFisher]

How long has the 100g been up and running? It has been my experience with GBRs that they do much better when added to well established tanks. I waited until my tank was running for 6 months before adding rams and they were very healthy and lived a long time.

[pjaldave]

The tank is up and established for about almost 4 months now. I know it is not that "well established" but I know also that is it an established one.

That point aside, any clue of what's going on?

[KingFisher]

Given that your water parameters are all good, I am thinking pissibly internal parasites. I would switch them to a good quality sinking cichlid pellet first, algae wafers and shrimp pellets are not the ideal staple foods for rams. Soak the pellets in garlic before feeding them. Use the garlic for 4-6 weeks.

[pjaldave]

I did that to the shrimp pellet, but the males now are just not eating... But I will buy a cichlid pellet/wafer for them.

[kurly]

Sorry to hear about your Ram losses...Have you tried feeding them frozen food (unthawed of course) such as bloodworms, brine shrimp and such? I know my Bolivian Rams love that type of food. It just may get them eating if you give them a little bit of that instead of flake food.

But if it may be internal parasites, I would hold off on the frozen foods and stick with what KingFisher has advised first.

[escamosa]

This might sound stupid, but have you tried seperating the males? Like, move one male out of the main tank, so that you have one male and however many females you have left? Apart from KingFishers idea of it being an internal parasite - which is definitely possible - it could be a simple stress related problem caused by a female to male ratio mistake. You started with 3 males, 3 females which in my opinion should of been something like 1 male, 3 females, or 2 males, 6 females. There could be quite a bit of fighting going in the tank that you just don't see - maybe of a night.

[pjaldave]

why would i want 1 male to 3 females? i am pretty sure you want them to pair up and not having enough of both sexes is not really the point. they form a monogamous pair not like livebearers that wants to mate everytime.

plus, the 2 males died yesterday night anyways. :( left with 2 females.

[bignellm]

From what I've observed in my Blue Rams, is the Female will lay eggs and then the male will do his thing. Then after the mating and sometimes (every-time so far) snacking on eggs (they're still working out the kinks of parenting), the male will get aggressive with his female counterpart. So, from what I've seen, it's not completely a monogamous pairing. It's not as casual as live-bearers, but doesn't seem like a rock solid relationship.

So, it could of been an aggression issue.

[pjaldave]

research have told me that young pairs will fight a lot after breeding. it was probably what happened to my female, but I don't think it is the issue for the males.

[escamosa]

why would i want 1 male to 3 females? i am pretty sure you want them to pair up and not having enough of both sexes is not really the point. they form a monogamous pair not like livebearers that wants to mate everytime.

plus, the 2 males died yesterday night anyways. :( left with 2 females.

With most species of fishes a ratio of 1 - 3, males to females is the safest way to go when it comes to trying to breed them or even just keeping them. Even amounts will more times than not cause fighting in the tank.

Example 1. You have three males and three females, two of the males decide that they would like to start spawning with one of the females. What do you think will happen? Those two males will get aggressive, fight, and if they're not seperated, one of them will be killed. Also the female won't care to much for being pestered by two males at a time.

Example 2. I'll use the same scenerio, 3 of each sex. The three males will fight to be the dominant male in the tank, the aggression escalates and the whole six of them will never get comfortable in that tank. There will be no time for relaxing and spawning in that tank, and quite often the females will get stressed and die because the aggression won't remain within the males.

Example 3. Sometimes males can be down right pests at spawning time and for no apparent reason can be aggressive towards the females. A 3 on 3 set up is making the aggression more concentrated - 2 males picking at one female, 3 males picking at one female, 2 males picking at one male.

Aggression within a group of females is very, very low - sometimes you don't see any. If you have 1 male to 3 females, there will be no male to male aggression. If you have 1 male to 3 females, the male to female aggression is shared among 3 females. Both scenerios = less stress. Less stress = less dead Rams and a happier Ram owner. If you have 1 male to 3 females, your male has 3 lovely ladies to choose the perfect partner to spawn with. And it can make some healthy competition for the females - they can get to be more willing to spawn if they have to try harder to impress the male.

Yes, you will end up with only one pair with a 1 to 3 ratio, possibly 2 pairs with a 2 to 6 ratio. I'd rather that than what you're trying to do with those Rams of yours. It's a recipe for disaster.

Research and a few questions can save you a lot of trouble. :)

[ScottishFish]

Great explanation escamosa! Sorry to hear about your ram losses

[jagsandrams]

Try lowering your Ph gbrs Ph 5.5 to 6.5 Bolivians can tolerate higher.. my Ph is around 6.1

[pjaldave]

Great explanation, but not in my case. As i've already said, they've already paired up, so no fighting over one female anymore, they already spawned and have set-up their territory in my tank. But then, worth a shot for another try.

Aggression with females is very very low? I've seen my females chase each other more than my males does. Again, it depends on the fish, right?

as for lowering pH, as far as i am concerned, stable pH is better than trying to make it perfect.

[jagsandrams]

Yes a stable Ph is good but your blue rams are dying because of your Ph levals being to high. They need soft water your is leaning towards slightly acidic

[MLBfan]

...but your blue rams are dying because of your Ph levals being to high.
I disagree, if the fish paired up, they fine the water levels good, also 7.6 isn't that high, if it was 8.0 or above it could be a problem, but 7.6 is close to neutral.

[Wild Turkey]

+1 In most cases the ph being stable is much more important than it being within a fishes "preferred range". Especially considering most fish in the hobby are tank bred, rams certainly included.

"soft" water is acidic.

[jagsandrams]

Mm well I've only been told by a few good sources to keep the Ph low or it will cause stress. I've always believed myself a good water quality and most fish will live someone I know keeps African cichlids in soft water. Thanks for the info though ill have to keep that in mind.. know anything about the eggs? I just got my first batch

[escamosa]

Great explanation, but not in my case. As i've already said, they've already paired up, so no fighting over one female anymore, they already spawned and have set-up their territory in my tank. But then, worth a shot for another try.

Aggression with females is very very low? I've seen my females chase each other more than my males does. Again, it depends on the fish, right?

as for lowering pH, as far as i am concerned, stable pH is better than trying to make it perfect.

The way I've explained it to you is definitely the way you should go, if you try again. And quite bluntly, paired or not paired, you were going to have trouble from the get go. Just because you think that they've paired up, doesn't mean that the aggression is going to stop right there and then. The other fish in the tank don't just disappear.

You had eggs - that doesn't mean that there was a true pairing, and even if there was, the three males in that tank had a more than 80% chance of destroying them. Once the males start eating the eggs, the females will sometimes follow thier lead. Once a true pairing happens, if they're good parents, they will defend those eggs to the best of thier ability, and regardless as to whether you feel that your females are more aggressive than your males - which in my experience I have never seen (a quick chase here and there is different than relentless pestering) - it's much easier for a pair to defend thier eggs against the less aggressive females, than multiple territorial males, that get a little to a lot more aggressive when spawning is happening - plus the other females who want to join in after they have lost thier own eggs. Males will more times than not stand up to eachother, neither backing down until one psychs the other out, which in turn ends up in physical aggression. Why would you want to even tempt that to happen? A male and a female together will often make an attacking female swim away in a flash. And don't forget the other fish you have in that tank too!

You need to give one pair the best chance possible to spawn successfully. Don't make it harder on them by thinking that an even amount of males and females are going to bring you even amounts of pairs and heaps of babies. Why do they all have to be breeding at once? It just makes no sense doing it that way, and there's hundreds, maybe thousands of fish forums and fish keepers out there, that have posted/said hundreds of times, probably thousands of times, that at least a 1 male to 3 female ratio is the way to go. And that ratio is not just for Rams, it's for a lot of species.

It's up to you on how you go about it, I hope that I have given you enough reasons to change the way you approach trying to breed them, but if not, good luck and good luck to the poor Rams.

[pjaldave]

I'm sorry ecsamosa if my replies have a little bit of "stubbornness" on them, I'm just basing my answers to what I observed from my rams.

Apparently, they were never aggressive to the other tankmates they have, just on each other (rams to rams).

To pH being low: if you can make it stable, then go ahead, but if you can't then just let your pH be and don't mess with it.

[escamosa]

I'm sorry ecsamosa if my replies have a little bit of "stubbornness" on them, I'm just basing my answers to what I observed from my rams.

Apparently, they were never aggressive to the other tankmates they have, just on each other (rams to rams).

To pH being low: if you can make it stable, then go ahead, but if you can't then just let your pH be and don't mess with it.

No problems, pjaldave. It's all about learning. We're all still learning something around here! I just hope that I've helped you out, and created a new direction for you to take, if or when you decide to try again! :ssmile: