pH = 6.0?

[madly99]

Hi all,

I did a pH test on my tank today and it came up at 6.0, which shocked me because when I tested it about 1.5 weeks ago, it was in the low 7s. I tested the tap water, too, and it was at 7.2. I've done 20% daily water changes the past 4 days trying to battle an algae problem (this, plus a 4-day blackout seems to have cleared the issue up), so you'd think it would be higher. I also noticed that my ammonia, which appeared to have spiked last week was back in the 0.25 range - I'm thinking this might be related to the pH being so low.

Requisite background info:
20H tank with 2 buenos aires tetras and 1 zebra danio
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 5? I can't read the kit very well, but it looks darker than yellow
Ammonia = 0.25

I did a 4-day course of Pimafix about 1.5 weeks ago to help with fuzzy fish. They look okay now and I did a water change right after. Then a few days later, I got the big batch of thread algae, but I didn't add anything to the tank to get rid of it - just blackout, bleached the plastic things, got rid of the live plants which were coated in algae, and a 20% water change daily.

Any idea what's going on or what I can do to fix it? I was holding off on doing another water change because I thought perhaps I'd killed off some of the helpful bacteria during the algae war but now I wonder if they will even grow in these conditions.

Thank you!

[Chrona]

The bacteria will grow fine in a pH of 6.0. The main concern is of course, the actual change. Did you add anything else to the tank? Driftwood? If it had been a while since a water change, I'd say the nitrifying process has made your water go acidic, but if you've done 20% water changes daily in the past few days...

Try a 50% water change today and see where your pH ends up.

[madly99]

Nope, nothing added. Lots removed, actually. I'm down to plastic plants and gravel. I even took out the castle to clean it off.

Oh, I did swap out the filter cartridge in my biowheel filter yesterday. The biowheel is untouched, of course, and I knew I'd lose some bacteria by doing this - maybe another reason for the ammonia climb - but the tank was starting to smell from the algae, I guess, and I tried just rinsing it out earlier in the week but it didn't help.

I'll give the big water change a whirl. Could the algae being killed off have some affect on the pH?

[Chrona]

Nope, nothing added. Lots removed, actually. I'm down to plastic plants and gravel. I even took out the castle to clean it off.

Oh, I did swap out the filter cartridge in my biowheel filter yesterday. The biowheel is untouched, of course, and I knew I'd lose some bacteria by doing this - maybe another reason for the ammonia climb - but the tank was starting to smell from the algae, I guess, and I tried just rinsing it out earlier in the week but it didn't help.

I'll give the big water change a whirl. Could the algae being killed off have some affect on the pH?

No, algae dying off will only produce ammonia. The nitrifying bacteria causes the water to slowly go acidic as it consumes ammonia/nitrite, but not that quickly and not when you are doing daily 20% water changes. Not sure what's going on but big water changes fix many issues in aquariums, heh.

[madly99]

Six buckets and half an hour later, it looks like the tank and tap have averaged out to 6.6 - I have a hard time differentiating the test kit colors, but we're definitely not yellow anymore.

Should I leave that alone or try for another bump-up tomorrow? I know that level is safe for the fish I've got, but I'm hoping the ammonia will even out again soon so I can finally add some more fish and I don't want the pH to be too far out of whack for any newcomers to acclimate.

I'm also a little worried that it fell so far with all the water changes I've been doing. I'll test the pH a little more regularly, but is there anything I can do besides water changes to keep the pH up?

[Chrona]

Six buckets and half an hour later, it looks like the tank and tap have averaged out to 6.6 - I have a hard time differentiating the test kit colors, but we're definitely not yellow anymore.

Should I leave that alone or try for another bump-up tomorrow? I know that level is safe for the fish I've got, but I'm hoping the ammonia will even out again soon so I can finally add some more fish and I don't want the pH to be too far out of whack for any newcomers to acclimate.

I'm also a little worried that it fell so far with all the water changes I've been doing. I'll test the pH a little more regularly, but is there anything I can do besides water changes to keep the pH up?

I would test the pH again tomorrow and see where it goes. Other than that, there's really not much you can do atm.

[Spyder]

If your doing your water changes and the pH out of the tap is 7.2 it could be crashing in your tank because the KH & GH are low. You can go to your LFS and get some Coral gravel and add it to your filter. This will raise you KH and stablize your pH. If you do this add a little at a time and wait 24 hours and check you pH before adding more.

HTH

[madly99]

This morning it's back down to 6.0. :( The only tests I have for kH and gH are those unreliable 6-in-1 dipsticks. I tested the tank and the tap - the tank was coming up slightly softer, but both in the "very soft" range, and both read 0 for alkalinity.

One thing that worries me, though - if this was a problem with kH and gH, wouldn't I be showing low pH all along? I'm positive I used to show a higher pH out of the tank when I wasn't even doing all these water changes. Is the fact that I'm doing all the water changes making things less stable?

If I really do need to add gravel, would you please give me an idea of how to start? I've got a penguin biowheel 100 - is it safe to put it in there? Or can I just add it to the tank? How much do you suggest I start with? Is it possible to use a tufa stone decoration?

[Chrona]

Hm, try a handful of crushed coral in a media bag in your filter then, as Spyder suggested.

[madly99]

I went to 4 pet shops - 2 of them aquatic specialists - and there wasn't a bag of coral smaller than 20 lbs. to be found. Both of the aquarium stores - one of which is purported to be the best in the city - recommended I go the chemical buffer route.

So, I gave in and purchased a jar of Seachem Neutral Regulator along with some aquarium salts. Now either I misunderstood the shop guy's instructions, or he was a madman, but long story short, the tank pH jumped from 6.0 to 7.2 in the span of an hour. Another hour has passed and my danio and one tetra are looking severely stressed. The second tetra is being his normal obnoxious self. I figure there's nothing I can do now - even if I try to remove the fish to a bucket, they'll still be sitting in 7.2 water since that's what's coming out of the tap.

I don't know what the chances are of the fish making it through the change - I am hoping the fact that they are all "hardy" will help them survive, but I'm preparing for the worst. :(

[Algenco]

put some tap water in a bucket and let it set for 24 hrs before testing the ph. My bet is that it will read less than 7

[Chrona]

I went to 4 pet shops - 2 of them aquatic specialists - and there wasn't a bag of coral smaller than 20 lbs. to be found. Both of the aquarium stores - one of which is purported to be the best in the city - recommended I go the chemical buffer route.

So, I gave in and purchased a jar of Seachem Neutral Regulator along with some aquarium salts. Now either I misunderstood the shop guy's instructions, or he was a madman, but long story short, the tank pH jumped from 6.0 to 7.2 in the span of an hour. Another hour has passed and my danio and one tetra are looking severely stressed. The second tetra is being his normal obnoxious self. I figure there's nothing I can do now - even if I try to remove the fish to a bucket, they'll still be sitting in 7.2 water since that's what's coming out of the tap.

I don't know what the chances are of the fish making it through the change - I am hoping the fact that they are all "hardy" will help them survive, but I'm preparing for the worst. :(

Yikes, sorry to hear that. At this point, just wait it out. Better to have a stable pH than to keep changing it.

I hate to bring more bad news, but Seachem Neutral Regulator (or any phosphate based buffer) is not intended for planted tank, as it has a tendency to cause algae growth. Seachem Acid Buffer and Alkaline Buffer are non-phosphate based, and the ones you want to use should you ever decide to play with pH.

Btw, how were the fish doing before, when you were just using whatever water you had? (ie 7.2 - 6.0 water)

[madly99]

Algenco - I tried to "debug" the water issue similarly - I had about a cup of tap water and a quart of tank water in separate containers and left them out overnight - maybe 14-16 hours - both of them were 7.2 in the morning, even though the tank water started at 6.4. I thought perhaps I had too much dissolved CO2 from keeping the tank covered during the algae outbreak, but even after changing the water, keeping the tank cover off all day and doing a lot of splashing, the tank didn't raise from 6.0, so my conclusion is that wasn't the issue.

I wish I knew what was going on, but it just seems like I've got funky water and added buffers are par for the course around here.

Chrona - Thanks a lot for all your help. Will the neutral regulator cause algae problems if I don't have a planted tank? I actually ditched the live plants because of algae and wasn't looking to replace them anytime soon - the tetras like to eat them, and I don't really have the right lighting so the bottom leaves of my anacharis kept dying and causing more of a mess. I figure not having to light the aquarium as much would cut down on the algae as well.

To answer your question - the fish were looking fine with the lower pH, though the danio looked a little agitated after the 50% water change yesterday. I read that tetras like it a little lower anyway, but the issue was really not being able to add any more fish since the shops around seem to have pHs in the 7s.

[Chrona]

You aren't injecting CO2 by any chance are you? That's really the only explanation I can think of for the tank water pH rising that much after it's been left to sit for 24 hours. Other than that, I'm stumped. One of those weird cases I guess, but as you ditched the live plants, the neutral regulator will work fine, after the initial acclimation to the pH change. Just remember to add the same amount to each bucket during each water change.

[madly99]

No, a CO2 injection is quite a bit beyond my ken. :) I think dissolved CO2 must be part of the problem if only because that's the only way that little experiment makes sense - but there must be something else going on.

Thanks again! :)

[Chrona]

Well, if you aren't injecting CO2, you shouldn't be seeing such a large drop/rise. The normal equilibrium point of CO2 in tank water is about 4 ppm, and you need a 30 ppm loss to get a pH rise of 1.0. Worth a shot though, but I'm sure there is something else.

[Lady Hobbs]

pH is generally not all that stable if your tank has not cycled and it appears since you have ammonia that it is not. I wouldn't mess with it or worry about it until you have that tank cycled and then see what you get.

[Spyder]

I still think Madly99's water is to soft and needs to be buffered. My water is the same way and I added Texas Holey Rock to bring up my KH from 1 to 4. Now I never have to worry. I inject CO2 and my pH stays at 6.4.

[madly99]

Well, the good news is - everyone is alive! The tetras are acting a little strange - bumping into each other and the plastic plants. I fear I may have seen some white spots, but I am hoping it's just my fish hypochondria.

The bad news is - pH is back down to 6.4. I know what you all are going to say - just leave it alone and I will. I'll even try to keep myself from testing it again until tomorrow. My hope is this was just where the regulator worked itself out. The dosing instructions were 1 tsp for 10-20 gallons or as needed. Since I have a 20, maybe that wasn't quite enough, but I'll let it simmer a couple of days, I promise.

Spyder - I asked about adding a rock, particularly after I noticed that every tank in the local Petco has one - but I don't trust the Petco help and both aquarium stores I visited said that it would be too difficult to know how much rock you need. Given how low the pH is, it seems like I could drop a boulder in there and it probably wouldn't be so bad, but the chemicals should be buffering the water now, though, right?

[Spyder]

I never like to add chemicals, plus every water change you will need to add the chemicals to rebuffer. I would get a small rock since it is only a 20g tank and check the KH & pH two days later. If the increase is not enough then add another small rock and check a couple days later. You want your KH at 4 or above to stablize the pH. With your soft water you should consider a pair of Blue Rams, they would love it.

[madly99]

Would you define "small" please? Preferably in inches. :)

The one not-so-bad thing about the regulator is that it dechlorinates, too, so since I need to add that during water changes anyway, it's not an extra step or expense.

[Spyder]

5" square, really doesn't matter. Just don't get a rock that takes up 1/2 the tank. It's impossible to tell how much it will affect your water so 5" square may do nothing, or it may raise you KH enough to satisfy you. It will work slowly, not like the regulator you put in. No true sience to a size or weight but it won't bring you pH to 8.0 in 10 minutes. You may get a .2 raise in Ph, maybe not, maybe a little more. I'm rambling, sorry.