Discus and 'El Natural'

[CrazedMichael]

Hello guys,

A collegue of mine resigned and he left behind a beautful aquarium with discus in it. Since i couldnt have it at the time, i let someone else take it. But it has re-ignited my desire to keep the beautiful fish.

I have a new 65g tank and i have followed the dirt method. I have used 1" of garden soil as a base substrate and capped it off with gravel. It has loads of plants in it as well as some cool looking driftwood. Currently it houses around 100+ guppy fry for growing out before selling. The reason i used the dirt is because i dont want to pay out loads for 'aquarium' substrate. i had a 10g which i did the same thing and the plants went wild (the same plants are now in the 65g) It was like a jungle in there. So i know it works. When i pulled out the Swords i ended up pulling up the whole gravel bed cos the root system was so dense.

Anyway, my point and question being is, can i keep discus in this tank? (without the guppies of course)

I have a few ideas lined up on lowering the PH (filtering with peat moss) and other things as well as buying a decent canister filter.

[Lady Hobbs]

Sounds like a perfect tank for Discus to me. It must have broken your heart to turn down that other tank of Discus.

[Aeonflame]

I say go for it. As long as you can maintan your ph levels, then theres no reason not to do it.

[CrazedMichael]

Thanks guys, that's good news.
LH- yeh I was SO envious of the last tank. The nature of my collegues resignation restricted my opportunity to take the aquarium. Since I was the only person who is savvy enough about tanks oin our company I offered my help to transfer it it to my other colleague's place. The whole time I was crying inside! Was so envious! They were huge as well.

I will let the 65g establish itself for a while and wait til bonus in january to buy the fish and filter. Also by then the guppies will be saleable which will help financially too.
I can't wait. I will take a picture of the tank in its current state as soon as I can.

[Crispy]

kudos for letting the tank establish before jumping into discus,

get some real good filtration and you should be good to go. a few pairs would do great in a planted 65g.

sounds like you have the substrate/plants all set. can't wait to see pics :)

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

While this sounds great, you will probably need to get adult Discus. Juvi Discus would not do well in an El Natural setup as they would end up stunted. If you are getting captive bred Discus, don't even worry about filtering with peat to lower your pH. Captive bred Discus are not picky about pH like their wild cousins. The best thing about an El Natural setup for discus is the floating plants that provide lots of shade. Discus do not like the bright lights often associated with planted tanks but rather prefer subdued light levels.

[CrazedMichael]

Morning,

Tried to upload a couple of snaps on my Sony Cybershot that i took last night, but it appears imageshack is blocked in the office. So i'll post them later.

Yes i plan to buy a really large canister filter suited to 200g. I'm considering splitting the intake tube into 2 way so i can have an intake on both ends of the tank to make sure it really pulls up any waste on the bottom as best i can.

Currently i have an 18w CFL lamp hanging on the top which used to be on the 10g tank. It looks kinda cool giving the tank a spot light look. When the time comes i will reconsider my lighting options. It needs to be the correct choice as my tank is open-top so the lights need to look 'neat'.

I have my eyes on a bunch of discus in the 4-5" range which i think should be suitable.

Oh and alot more plants will end up going in there.

I'll have a think about the PH issues. I dont think i'll have much problem mainaining the levels as i always age my tap water for 2 days before using as i only have chlorine to deal with and tap water here is too warm to add directly. PH is around 7.2 last i checked. I'll test it again later.

[Lady Hobbs]

IluvMyGoldBarb.......a question.

My idea of El Natural set-ups are tanks that can get some natural sunlight, no CO, very few water changes and sometimes not even a filter at all.

I don't think CrazedMichael is talking about El Natural per se but he's simply using dirt in his tank covered with gravel. Other than that, I don't see his tank as being El Natural other than the dirt. Or do you refer to all tanks with dirt as El Natural set-ups?

[CrazedMichael]

Well, technically speaking El Natural refers to being as natural as possible from what i've researched. No filter, no WC's, full of plants, soil, etc.

Will be interesting what others have got to say.

For me i have taken the concept and will just make a few adjustments to suit the needs of discus.

EDIT: I mentioned 'El Natural' cos the first thing that comes to mind is SOIL.

[Lady Hobbs]

I was curious because I've had dirt tanks before but that's where it ended. I still changed 50-60% of the water each week and had good filtering. I didn't consider it El Natural at all.

[CrazedMichael]

So what would one call such a tank?


Also, when you did the WC's did you ever have the problem of stirring up the dirt? I've capped mine well but i still worry sometimes maybe i will accidentally add the water too fast or something and stir it up.

[Lady Hobbs]

I called it a tank with dirt substrate. :)

I take it you have a phyton water changer? That shouldn't stir anything up much and if so, stick a tupperware bowl in the tank and shoot the water into that or a plate or something to deflect.

[CrazedMichael]

I use a standard garden hose to drain water from my tanks. Just suck on the end and aim it towards the shower basin in the bathroom.

For filling, the tap water is too warm to add directly so its aged in 2 large rubbermaid tubs i have.

Liking the name you chose :-)

One of the reasons im posting this thread in the first place is this... if at anytime, should i release some dirt into the water column, can the discus handle it?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

IluvMyGoldBarb.......a question.

My idea of El Natural set-ups are tanks that can get some natural sunlight, no CO, very few water changes and sometimes not even a filter at all.

I don't think CrazedMichael is talking about El Natural per se but he's simply using dirt in his tank covered with gravel. Other than that, I don't see his tank as being El Natural other than the dirt. Or do you refer to all tanks with dirt as El Natural set-ups?

No, I wouldn't call what he is proposing a true El Natural setup. A true El Natural setup has no "artificial" lighting, gets few water changes (not none. lol) and does not have a filter, but simply a powerhead for water movement. There are variations on the El Natural setup (aka Natural Planted Tank) where artificial lighting is used but all other elements remain the same. The main thrust of the El Natural setup is the natural filtration provided by the bacteria in the substrate and the plants. Emergent growth or floating plants are probably the one critical element for classification of El Natural. Without them, you do not get the full benefit of the natural filtration.

In my first reply in this thread, I responded with my above ideas in mind. A true El Natural setup in not really a suitable environment for captive Discus. If the tank is simple a planted tank that uses dirt as a first layer for the benefit of the plants, I see no problem with keeping Discus in that environment. The recommendation of adult Discus still stands though, as it is pretty much a standard recommendation for planted Discus tanks.

[3dees]

I have to agree with the above. I don't know much about El Natural tanks, but why would you even try with a demanding and expensive fish like discus? you can have a beautifully planted discus tank without going El Natural.

[Lady Hobbs]

That's why I was asking for clarification. Michael is just looking for a soil substrate ..... not going El Natural. (as his title here implied.) But if I had to go thru all that for water changes, I think I'd pass on the Discus and get a fish less sensitive that could go longer between changes, wouldn't you?

How's your kids doing? Have they had spawns yet?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Juvenile discus need the frequent water changes to maintain very clean water, however adult captive bred Discus do not have the same demands as juveniles or wild caught. I'd keep adult captive bred Discus in an El Natural setup in a heartbeat. With captive bred adults, you just need to keep the nitrates low, and that is extremely easy to do in an El Natural system. Keeping particulate matter down is another story, but that's not really a huge concern with captive bred adults.

[CrazedMichael]

Hello guys.

Thanks for all your replies and feedback. So as of now i'll just say it's not El Natural, and just simply a planted tank using soil instead of the expensive aquarium substrate.

Tank setup as of now:-

Soil substrate (1" deep") capped with pea gravel.
2 medium sized pieces of driftwood.
2 bunches amazon sword.
1 trimming of wisteria
few bunches of hairgrass scattered around
Java moss
A few other plants i forgot the names (long day!)
Tiny sponge filter (mainly for water movement)
No heater (water maintains temps of 23degrees which is fine for guppies)
Air pump with air stone.
Water!

FTS:-
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Closer FTS:-
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Side View:-
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Driftwood:-
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By January i expect most guppies will have been sold. Once this happens and bonus kicked in this will be the tank set up (same as above and..):-

1 250w heater set to 30-32 degrees (up for debate)
1 large canister filter (rated around 200gph)
Plants should be alot more dense buy then as well with trimmings replanted.
Improved lighting (still thinking on type)
6-8 mature discus

Water should be alot more clearer once i install proper filtration.

LH - Are you referring to my guppy fry? If so, yes they are doing well, growing faster and colouring up more since their transfer from the 10g last week.

Can't Wait!