Fishless Cycle Problem.

[FishKeeper123]

Hello everyone, and thanks for checking out this thread. I just got a new 55g setup and have been working on getting it cycled. I'm following the instructions on Fishless Cycling stickied to this forum.

So, I setup everything in my tank, rocks, sand, gravel, heater and filter. It's at about 84 degrees right now. So I started to add (clear, Ammonium Hydroxide is the only ingredient listed) ammonia to the tank, did about 5 drops per 10 gallons, so I put in 22 drops. I waited a few minutes, and tested the ammonia to be about 0.5-1.0 ppm. I thought it was working fine so I added another 10 drops, waited 10 minutes maybe and tested again. It read the same thing, 0.5-1.0 ppm. I repeatedly added 10 drops at a time, total it was about 80 drops until I gave up and came to these forums. I have no idea why I can't get the ammonia up above 0.5-1.0.

I have filter media and substrate from an established tank to put in once I get this whole thing sorted out, I didn't want to put the cartridge in only to kill the bacteria by not having enough ammonia. I'm using a liquid API Test kit I bought last week. Any suggestions would be greatly appeciated, thank you.

[gm72]

First of all, congratulations on making a very wise choice. Fishless cycling is the way to go, period.

Maybe a dumb question, but it is one I always ask--are you sure you are reading the results properly? 80 total drops of ammonia should have read a quite high level of ammonia in the water for your 55 gallon. However, different brands of ammonia are made with different strengths, so maybe you have a weak mixture.

Try again in a day and check the ammonia about 30 minutes after you add the ammonia to make sure it is spread throughout the tank.

Keep us posted so we can get you through this!

[FishKeeper123]

I don't even know what is going on now. I'm trying to see if this ammonia kit is actually working so I filled the vial with about 4/5 tank water and 1/5 pure ammonia from the bottle. I'm still getting a reading of 0.5-1.0 after waiting 10 minutes :c11: . Surely something is wrong with the kit right?

[RobbieG]

It would seem that way. Even if the ammonia was only about 1% you would have 1 part in 500 which would be about 2000 PPM.

I'd say its time for a new one!

[gm72]

Totally agreed. Get a new kit and start over. Sorry to hear you have a faulty kit. Is it old?

[FishKeeper123]

It's not even a week old. What brand or even a master kit would you guys recommend?

BTW: If the actual ppm was much higher than the highest ppm shown, would it just get very very dark in color?

[gm72]

API master kits are usually very effective.

No idea what would happen if the test encountered something off the chart. Interesting question, though.

[RobbieG]

Most test kits have a reagent that reacts to the presence of whatever it is they test for - the more of the thing they are testing for the darker they get

[gm72]

Makes sense, Robbie, thanks. So I'm thinking his should have turned...oh, maybe black? :c5:

[RobbieG]

If the bottom didn't melt out first:ezpi_wink1:

[FishKeeper123]

Heh, I think I'm going to make a big order from bigal's including a master kit. Is there anything I can do to help it cycle until it arrives?

[Dave66]

I guess I'm the old-fashioned one here, but I use a pinch of dark brown sugar regularly to cycle a tank. The nitrifying bacteria liberate the oxygen from the sugar's carbonate, and use the carbon in their growth processes.
How often you do this depends on the size of the tank. With a 10, it'd be every other day for four to six weeks, checking the ammonia, nitrate and nitrite as you go. It takes that long for a tank to truely stabilize. When the first two are at 0 ppm and the third around 10 ppm at the end of cycling, you can add a few tougher fish. I use loricariads, but danios will do. Wait a week or so, then add a few more. Do that until you get the population appropriate for your tank.
I find the brown sugar method more predictable and safer than dosing ammonia or sacryficing fish.
Table sugar won't work, as it lacks the carbonate value, and brown sugar won't work in marine tanks, but I've been using the brown sugar method for decades in freshwater tanks and it works for me.

Dave

[FishKeeper123]

That's very interesting, thanks for sharing. I guess I will have to wait to try either methods until I get a working kit. Thank you all.

[RobbieG]

Good luck with your tank!

[gm72]

Dave, interesting approach, and it makes sense. However, using ammonia can cut your cycling time significantly. Most of us are up and running in about 2 weeks using ammonia with no stability problems.

[RobbieG]

It definitely sound more controllable than shrimp peels for those that can't find ammonia

[Dave66]

Dave, interesting approach, and it makes sense. However, using ammonia can cut your cycling time significantly. Most of us are up and running in about 2 weeks using ammonia with no stability problems.

I understand your point about ammonia; I use brown sugar because I have for 30 odd years. I've considered using ammonia, but then, I'm in no hurry to stock a tank, and I don't like having toxic stuff in bottles around the house for obvious reasons (little hands).
Moot point in a way, as I haven't set up a tank from scratch in five or six years.

Dave

[FishKeeper123]

Alright, I did some more testing on the test kit and from that I have concluded the kit works, getting a new one would just further frustrate me with the same problems. I filled maybe a 1/4 gallon container with water, and added the slightest amount of ammonia and got a reading of a few ppm, makes sense.

I think it is likely that using 5 drops per 10 gallons saturated the tank with ammonia, and thus gave a weird color reading from the test. After doing it again, the light green color, which I thought was 0.5-1.0, seems paler and may represent an unchartable (high) reading. I think I'm going to put in the established filter media and some subtrate to lower the ammonia to a chartable number. Or possibly empty the tank and refill again via python? Anything wrong with this? Thanks.

[Chrona]

I find the brown sugar method more predictable and safer than dosing ammonia or sacryficing fish.

Dave

Are you saying that adding brown sugar reduces/eliminates fish deaths during a fish cycle? How exactly does this work? The ammonia/nitrite is still present, and you said yourself the process takes 4-6 weeks, which is the usual time for fish cycling anyways. Unless you are using pure RO water, you have plenty of carbonates as indicated by alkalinity. Furthermore, even if you did for some reason have water with 0 kH, baking soda is a much better way of adding it, because:

- The counterpart to the bicarbonate, sodium, is a substance that fish readily tolerate (in small quantities).

- You will need to add much less of it to achieve the same level of carbonates as with brown sugar.

- Bicarbonate, HCO3-, is exactly what the nitrifying bacteria needs to convert ammonia and nitrites.

Basically my point is that carbonates is hardly ever the limiting factor in bacteria growth. This is further shown by the fact that it is incredibly rare for a pH of a tank to crash following a cycle and still very rare to see any kind of major pH change, despite the fact that the nitrifying process eats up carbonates. What does this mean? That there's plenty of carbonates around. In the worst case scenario, nitrifying bacteria can fix atmospheric carbon dioxide for a carbon source, so carbon is not an issue.

The fact is, if you do what you detailed, you are still putting fish in an environment for 4-6 weeks where there will be levels of ammonia/nitrite, and I fail to see how that's safer than fishless cycling with ammonia. I also fail to see how it's any different from regular fish cycling, as you've made it seem like it is.


To the original poster:

What's the concentration on the ammonium hydroxide? To achieve 5 ppm in a 55g tank, you need roughly 1 ml of pure ammonium or 20 drops. If you have, say a 10% solution, you'll need about 200 drops to hit that level.

[FishKeeper123]

The concentration is not stated on the label. I guess I'll try a small scale version with a 10g to see how it works out.

[Chrona]

The concentration is not stated on the label. I guess I'll try a small scale version with a 10g to see how it works out.

Well, typical household ammonia is about 5-10%, so you probably just need a lot more ammonia.

[Dave66]

Are you saying that adding brown sugar reduces/eliminates fish deaths during a fish cycle? How exactly does this work? The ammonia/nitrite is still present, and you said yourself the process takes 4-6 weeks, which is the usual time for fish cycling anyways. Unless you are using pure RO water, you have plenty of carbonates as indicated by alkalinity. Furthermore, even if you did for some reason have water with 0 kH, baking soda is a much better way of adding it, because:

- The counterpart to the bicarbonate, sodium, is a substance that fish readily tolerate (in small quantities).

- You will need to add much less of it to achieve the same level of carbonates as with brown sugar.

- Bicarbonate, HCO3-, is exactly what the nitrifying bacteria needs to convert ammonia and nitrites.

Basically my point is that carbonates is hardly ever the limiting factor in bacteria growth. This is further shown by the fact that it is incredibly rare for a pH of a tank to crash following a cycle and still very rare to see any kind of major pH change, despite the fact that the nitrifying process eats up carbonates. What does this mean? That there's plenty of carbonates around. In the worst case scenario, nitrifying bacteria can fix atmospheric carbon dioxide for a carbon source, so carbon is not an issue.

The fact is, if you do what you detailed, you are still putting fish in an environment for 4-6 weeks where there will be levels of ammonia/nitrite, and I fail to see how that's safer than fishless cycling with ammonia. I also fail to see how it's any different from regular fish cycling, as you've made it seem like it is.

I guess I was unclear. When I cycle a tank using brown sugar, there aren't any fish in it. I don't believe I said there were.
As my tanks are heavily planted from day one, a level of nitrifying bacteria exists, finding easily accessable carbonate from the nutrient rich substrate, the plants, and the water itself. What I'm doing with brown sugar is raising that level of bacteria by targeting additional carbonates. Through my microscope I can see the surge in Nitrobacter populations within two days of using brown sugar. I see it as a bacteria 'buffer' when I start adding fish over time.
I could add a few fish after a week or two, as ammonia and nitrite are zero, and nitrates are negligable after a few days, and stay that way throughout. I could have it fully stocked a few at a time in a month, but what's the rush? I keep the brown sugar up for a month for GP; to let the plants settle in and the tank to 'hit it's stride' and define its character.
I should add that I've never lost a fish to disease (I quarantine all new arrivals for at least two weeks) or by a breakdown of the nitrogen cycle in any of my display tanks since I was 10. I also have near infinate patience with my tanks; it usually takes me months to fully stock one, although I should say that there are between about fifty and several hundred fish in my freshwater tanks, as I'm partial to tetras, and it takes time to build large schools of them.

Dave

[gm72]

I guess I was unclear. When I cycle a tank using brown sugar, there aren't any fish in it. I don't believe I said there were.
As my tanks are heavily planted from day one, a level of nitrifying bacteria exists, finding easily accessable carbonate from the nutrient rich substrate, the plants, and the water itself. What I'm doing with brown sugar is raising that level of bacteria by targeting additional carbonates. Through my microscope I can see the surge in Nitrobacter populations within two days of using brown sugar. I see it as a bacteria 'buffer' when I start adding fish over time.
I could add a few fish after a week or two, as ammonia and nitrite are zero, and nitrates are negligable after a few days, and stay that way throughout. I could have it fully stocked a few at a time in a month, but what's the rush? I keep the brown sugar up for a month for GP; to let the plants settle in and the tank to 'hit it's stride' and define its character.
I should add that I've never lost a fish to disease (I quarantine all new arrivals for at least two weeks) or by a breakdown of the nitrogen cycle in any of my display tanks since I was 10. I also have near infinate patience with my tanks; it usually takes me months to fully stock one, although I should say that there are between about fifty and several hundred fish in my freshwater tanks, as I'm partial to tetras, and it takes time to build large schools of them.

Dave

Interesting clarification. Sounds like you take outstanding care of your tanks! We would love to see some pictures!

[RobbieG]

Putting in established filter media or gravel is an excellent idea - I would change out the water first like you suggested as it is likely to be oversaturated with the ammonia you originally added - changing the water at this stage should have no reall effect on the outcome.

Glad you figured out the test kit

Good luck!

[gm72]

Good reminders, Robbie. "Seeding" the tank with established media is an outstanding way of accelerating the cycling process.

[RobbieG]

It was actually his idea a little while back (I almost missed it)

[gm72]

Good catch, my mistake!

Anyway, most of us do seed new tanks.

[Chrona]

Through my microscope I can see the surge in Nitrobacter populations within two days of using brown sugar. I see it as a bacteria 'buffer' when I start adding fish over time.
Dave

You do realize that it took years for scientists to isolate and classify the Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas bacteria using advanced equipment and techniques right? Go take a look at the research behind Marineland's Biospira product. How pray tell did you manage to determine that the particular bacteria you were looking at was indeed Nitrobacter? Keep in mind that in any given tank, (or in anything really), there are dozens, if not hundreds of species of bacteria. And I'm not even going to get into the issue that Nitrobacter has been proven to not even be present (or contribute to nitrification) in most freshwater or saltwater tanks. (Meaning that the first generation of scientists screwed up and falsely attributed Nitrobacter as the primary consumer of nitrites in aquariums)

I guess I was unclear. When I cycle a tank using brown sugar, there aren't any fish in it. I don't believe I said there were.

If you had no fish and were not adding ammonia, where did your nitrogen source come from? Nitrifying bacteria essentially burn nitrogen products using oxygen to generate energy, so it is literally impossible to create new bacteria using brown sugar only.

As my tanks are heavily planted from day one, a level of nitrifying bacteria exists, finding easily accessable carbonate from the nutrient rich substrate, the plants, and the water itself. What I'm doing with brown sugar is raising that level of bacteria by targeting additional carbonates.

A carbon source is almost never the limiting factor in nitrifying bacteria growth. They don't have to have carbonates, even. They can fix atmospheric carbon dioxide. Unless you are one of the very rare cases that has stagnant water, as well as a kH of 0, adding additional carbonates will do nothing to increase bacteria population because they run out of ammonia first. It's like fanning a fire that has no logs to burn.

As for my explanation for your experiences, the only reason you did not lose fish is because the tank was heavily planted from the start and you introduced small numbers at a time. That is the key point and should have the emphasis, not the sugar that the bacteria doesn't need. The plants were able to intake enough ammonia/ammonium, while keeping a bit of bacteria on the leaves to compensate for the small number of fish you were introducing each time. Making it sound like brown sugar did the trick will screw over the average hobbyist who does not have a heavily planted tank and tries the method.

As a side note, there is an additional caveat to the cycling a tank by planting heavily from the start. You have to have the proper environment to enable plant growth, and the plants have to be doing well during the whole period. Or else you'll have rotting plants adding even more ammonia to the mess.

Edit:

Also, where are you getting the information from that brown sugar decomposes into carbonates in a fish tank?

[FishKeeper123]

So I eventually got it to around 5ppm, took about 800 drops lol. It been like that for a couple days, so I haven't been adding any more ammonia daily. Should I be adding that 800 drops daily, or just try to keep it at about 5ppm? I'm assuming it's not getting lowered from the 5ppm because the bacteria hasn't built up that much yet. This is my first fishless cycle, so I would just like some clarification, Thank you.

[Chrona]

So I eventually got it to around 5ppm, took about 800 drops lol. It been like that for a couple days, so I haven't been adding any more ammonia daily. Should I be adding that 800 drops daily, or just try to keep it at about 5ppm? I'm assuming it's not getting lowered from the 5ppm because the bacteria hasn't built up that much yet. This is my first fishless cycle, so I would just like some clarification, Thank you.

800 daily until your nitrites start going up, then cut down to 1/2 dosage. Probably easier to dose with a beaker or something. 800 drops = 40 mL.

[FishKeeper123]

Yup that's what I'm using. I'll continue doing 40 mL drops daily until the nitrites, may have a few more questions then:ezpi_wink1: All of you have been a big help. Thank you.