"Starter" fish

[Duchess44]

I was told by Tetra "Rapid Response" that even though my tank has only been running for a day and a half, I should get a "starter" fish and put him in the tank to get the ammonia level going. I always thought you needed to run it for like 2 weeks without fish to do this other wise the fish would die.

If I should put fish in the tank, 1 or 2 I believe he said, which breeds are best or hearty enough to do this with?

Thanks

[Lady Hobbs]

You wrote Tetra on how to cycle a fish tank? You can find that everywhere on the internet including in my signature links. But what size is your tank? If you only start with one or two fish, you will only grow enough bacteria for one or two fish.

I'm surprised Tetra didn't recommend their own product, Tetra SafeStart. That's a bacteria booster and helps keep your fish safer during a cycle but does not cycle a tank for you. Neither does a tank of water sitting around empty for 2 weeks.

I would recommend a fishless cycle before any fish but if you decide to cycle with fish, at least do it safety so fish are not suffering. And get a test kit so you can monitor your water. Have you purchased a water conditioner to remove chlorine/chloramines from your tap water?

[Duchess44]

No..I wrote Tetra on a certain point of it. Not how to do the whole thing. And I have done research, I just wanted to be sure I am doing it right.
If it's a problem I won't bother you guys anymore. I guess any info you give can also be found on the internet, right?

Thank you for what help you have been able to provide so far. I do appreciate it.

[bignellm]

No..I wrote Tetra on a certain point of it. Not how to do the whole thing. And I have done research, I just wanted to be sure I am doing it right.
If it's a problem I won't bother you guys anymore. I guess any info you give can also be found on the internet, right?

Thank you for what help you have been able to provide so far. I do appreciate it.

One of the heartiest fish I've come across is Platy. Many color variations, cheap, and livebearers. My Ph is on the hard side. Between 7.5 and 8.2. I've heard this hardness can help keep stabilization (wild swings), but have not witnessed it.

If going the fish route, I'd go with Platy and keep on the ready for water changes. I was on average, Until my filtration seasoned, was changing 20% minimum about every other day. I also added as many plants as I could find to eat up nitrates as they were produced, boost O2, and supplement the Platy Diet. One thing I think that incredibly helped the Platy through the ordeal is the bubble wall. They spent alot of time playing with it and sucking up the richer O2 water as it rose and mixed. Also during the event, I had 3 pregnancies and 3 new platy teens running about.

Last bit of advice, test, test, test. Ammonia and Nitrite being of the highest priority.

[Sandz]

No..I wrote Tetra on a certain point of it. Not how to do the whole thing. And I have done research, I just wanted to be sure I am doing it right.
If it's a problem I won't bother you guys anymore. I guess any info you give can also be found on the internet, right?

Thank you for what help you have been able to provide so far. I do appreciate it.

This forum is strictly built around help. Thats why we gather here, to help each other so your questions are a bother to no one.

The issues stated in your post are that you got info on cycling and wanted to know safe fish to cycle with. The best answer most will give you here is to cycle with a bottle of pure ammonia to build up the biological filter. The steps needed to do this are in Lady Hobbs signature titled FISHLESS CYCLE. If you cycle with fish in you will take MUCH longer to get to your desired result for the tank and much longer to get each group of fish with the added aspect of danger to the fish you are adding. Read the ebook linked to the left and then read both the fish in and fishless cycle threads. Complete either you would like as in the end its your tank.

Hardy fish are Zebra Danios, Platies, Mollys, Certain Rasboras and many of the smaller fish will do okay in the tank considering its size.

We need to know the size of the tank and your final goal of what you want the tank to be before really advising you what to put in it. The bioload is one thing but if the fish will not work out long term then we can tell you that off the bat too.

[Duchess44]

Tank size: 10gallon
Final goal: live fish that are colorful and healthy is all I want. Mainly I want to be able to put colorful fish in and that's it. Nothing fancy or breeding, etc. Just a healthy tank of pretty fish.

[Sandz]

Okay, unfortunately, you are very limitted on fish that will live in a 10gallon without issue. The best idea I have for a 10gal tank would be a nice planted tank with shrimp and a betta. Theoretically guppys and platy's could live in the tank you are looking at but I would recommend all males as you dont have room for babies. Live bearers, whether you want them to or not will breed like mad.

[imma24]

+1 on a betta for that size tank, but you could also get a school of smaller tetras like neons or glowlights. Like Sandz said above, never feel you can't ask questions here. While there is a ton of info on the internet, some of it can be conflicting or confusing.

The cycling method using ammonia is the fastest. If you cycle with hardy fish, the cycle will take longer (because although fish produce ammonia, you need to remove it to keep it at a safe level, hence, the bacteria will be slower to grow) and you will need to change your water quite often to keep the ammonia & nitrite levels down until the cycle finishes.

With pure ammonia, there are no fish in the tank to keep alive, so you start with an ammonia "spike" (by putting it directly into the water) which leads to a nitrite "spike" and then nitrates - once your water tests at 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrites & under 20ppm nitrates you are ready to add fish.

[Duchess44]

I am confused on the betta thing. I have a 5 gallon tank that has 4 fish in it plus a little sucker fish. I wish I could post a pic or remember the names of them. I will try to do some research online and see if I can find them and see what the names are.

I think 2 are Danios and 2 look like angel fish but they are grey with black stripes going horizontally. They have a large black "fin" on the bottom rear right before the tail fin. I wish I could find a pic but I don't even know what to search under.

[bignellm]

I am confused on the betta thing. I have a 5 gallon tank that has 4 fish in it plus a little sucker fish. I wish I could post a pic or remember the names of them. I will try to do some research online and see if I can find them and see what the names are.

I think 2 are Danios and 2 look like angel fish but they are grey with black stripes going horizontally. They have a large black "fin" on the bottom rear right before the tail fin. I wish I could find a pic but I don't even know what to search under.

Pretty sure Betta is on recommend list because it would be a showcase fish that doesn't grow, if at all, although Betta can be a little hostile at times. So other fish being suggested are ones that can take the stress of the hostility?

[Aeonflame]

The other fish in your 5g sound like black skirt tetras. Both types of fish belong and do best in schools of at least 5, which that tank cannot support. If you have pleco, that makes it overstocked as well. You can do a small school of the smaller tetras in your ten gallon provided you keep up on the water changes.

[Duchess44]

That's them. I googled an image of what you said and they popped right up. Thank you for helping me id them. :)

[Duchess44]

Ok I think I am going to go with a school (6 probably) of White Cloud minnows and maybe an algae eater (oto). I won't get the oto for a while because there really isn't anything in the tank for him to eat yet. But I do also like the idea of snails? I read that somewhere...

Of course this is all after the tank has cycled..thumbs2:

[bignellm]

Ok I think I am going to go with a school (6 probably) of White Cloud minnows and maybe an algae eater (oto). I won't get the oto for a while because there really isn't anything in the tank for him to eat yet. But I do also like the idea of snails? I read that somewhere...

Of course this is all after the tank has cycled..thumbs2:

If thinking about Mystery Snails, I have a link on my signature line to a page with loads of helpful info. Just click on the Apple Snail Basic Training Link. It'll take you to applesnail.net

Pomacea diffusa (mystery snail commonly labled) grows to at most golf ball size, eats refuse and algae, doesn't eat plants and will not breed without another diffusa present (sexual reproduction). Lastly, they are cheap, hearty, and are active during days as well as night.

[Duchess44]

I have always wanted to put a snail in my tank. I think they are so cool to look at. I will definitely check out the link in your sig.

[Lady Hobbs]

No..I wrote Tetra on a certain point of it. Not how to do the whole thing. And I have done research, I just wanted to be sure I am doing it right.
If it's a problem I won't bother you guys anymore. I guess any info you give can also be found on the internet, right?

Thank you for what help you have been able to provide so far. I do appreciate it.

whoaaaa.....I asked that question because I had not heard of "Rapid Response" before and thought at first it was a new bacteria booster. After figuring out what it was, I was concerned of what they might have told you. Not too many of them even mention cycling the tank before adding fish.

But Tetra does make a good product for cycling called Tetra SafeStart. It doesn't cycle for you but it does help keep the fish alive. Sorry my post come off in a way not intended.

[Duchess44]

Yes I was told to add SafeStart right before adding any fish. Even though I cycled, should I still add the SafeStart before adding fish?

[Lady Hobbs]

Sure enough. Whatever works for these little guys.

But now I have a question, I'm wondering how you cycled? A tank will not cycle without a source of ammonia. Without it, you have a tank of water doing nothing.

You can cycle with flakes, raw fish or raw shrimp allowing it to rot and produce ammonia that way.

You can add pure ammonia from a bottle and cycle with that. OR.....you can stock your tank slowly and use the ammonia that is produced from the fish. You will be doing the last.

[Duchess44]

No what I meant was once it was cycled and I am ready to add fish.

[Lady Hobbs]

It will not hurt anything and if you do happen to get a small ammonia spike, it will neutalize the ammonia so it isn't toxic. It's pretty good stuff. I've used that and Seachem Stability and cycled tanks easily with fish.

[Sandz]

Okay, so now im concerned with your 5gal tank. You mentioned you had several Black Skirt Tetra's in there and a sucker fish we have yet to identify. That 5gal tank will not support the stock you mentioned. My advice would be to move the 5 gal into this 10 gal.

Look up plecostomus or otocinclus... those are the two common types... it could also be a chinese or siamese algae eater. The only one of these suited for either a 5gal or 10gal would be an otocinclus.

Take everything from the 5gal, put it in the 10gal. Use your media from the 5gal filter and let it seed the 10gal while running and then plan out a nice betta tank or something of the like for that 5gal.

[Duchess44]

I have had the same 5 fish (including sucker fish, which I think is a oto something or other) and 2 tetras and 2 zebra danios in that tank for months with no issues/illnesses. They are all happy, eating, plenty of running room, clear, clean water, etc. I don't see why there is an issue with them. This is a tiny tan colored algae eater. They don't grow more than 1/2 inch if that in adulthood. I wish I could remember the name of it. Sorry I am so vague, but it was quite awhile ago that I bought him. About a year ago , actually. And he's doing just great.

Not trying to sound like I am ungrateful for all your help, but I really don't see where there is a problem with these guys.

[Duchess44]

Ok so I took my water to be tested at my LFS (petsmart). She said I already had ammonia in it but it still needs to sit for awhile to get into the nitrite/nitrate thing. so I will add the ammonia tomorrow morning and just keep doing what I have been doing with the flakes every day.

[bignellm]

I have had the same 5 fish (including sucker fish, which I think is a oto something or other) and 2 tetras and 2 zebra danios in that tank for months with no issues/illnesses. They are all happy, eating, plenty of running room, clear, clean water, etc. I don't see why there is an issue with them. This is a tiny tan colored algae eater. They don't grow more than 1/2 inch if that in adulthood. I wish I could remember the name of it. Sorry I am so vague, but it was quite awhile ago that I bought him. About a year ago , actually. And he's doing just great.

Not trying to sound like I am ungrateful for all your help, but I really don't see where there is a problem with these guys.

Otocinclus, The Oto Cat?
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/catfish/otocat.php
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/catfish/oto-cat.jpg

I have 2 in my 16 gallon, great cleaning crew and fun to watch.

[Duchess44]

Yes that's him :)

[Sandz]

In no way do you have to take my advice but here is why I have that opinion... though the fish are "happy" in your tank currently a 5 gallon tank over time will not supplement a diet for an Oto properly. They need to be fed algae wafers to supplement that and are also a schooling fish, which means that in a room of less than 6 of its same kind, it has a tendency to be more scared and uncomfortable. The same issues is presented with your danio's and Black Skirts. They need aproximately 6 of their own kind to make a propper school for multiple reason.

Length wise, these fish COULD live in a 5 gallon tank. The question thats yet to be presented is the fact that fish can stunt if put in a smaller enviroment than what is propper. What stunting is, is where the fish stops growning in size but its internal organs continue to grow. This causes the obvious problems of illness.

So while they have been happy for months, I still would stick to my origional suggestion. I wont take offense though if you dont agree, you are the caretaker of these animals and it will be your tank to make those decisions.

[Duchess44]

I am feeding him the wafers. No it's not that I don't agree so much it's that I am not seeing any problems. So you can see why it's hard for me to start panicking now when there is nothing and has been nothing wrong. I do see what you are saying and it makes sense...it's just hard to "get" right now.

It's my problem, not yours. I know you mean well and are trying to help. I am the one having a hard time understanding why this is an issue. I will think about what you have said and see if I can figure a way to put them in my 10 gallon tank and use the 5 gallon for something else. Not sure what but I will see.

Do you have suggestions as to what I can put in my 5 gallon then? I don't want to have it go to waste, like I said it was a b day present over 2 years ago and I have had it running with fish for that long and only lost 1 because I smished him with the gravel vac accidentally right after I had the tank and didn't really know about what I was doing. I was still very nervous and didn't even see him but I must have hit him because next time Is aw him he was swimming in a circle..then he slowly died.

Oh and sorry one other one in that tank got bloat. But I had had him for a long time not sure if that matters.

[Sandz]

Sure and I can appreciate your stance on it as well.

Thing is for tanks as small as a 10 or 5 gal you have limitted options. Betta's are still an option for the 5gal, so are Normans Lamp Eyes, Guppies and multiple other microfish. But most of these you will not find at the corner Petco. Shrimp will also work.

I dont know what current size the black skirts are but they get larger than a silver dollar (the coin)... for a fish used to that schooling room it can be cramped long term and that is what we all here strive is to maintain a full lifetime of the fish and plan around that. Thats the argument to double its space.

A 5gal tank is never out of uses.. there are many options out there, just schooling tetra for the most part are not something that fits. You could do a nice school of neon tetra;s as they dont get large...