10g - cycling with fish

[prog_frog]

Some of you may know that I tried fishless cycling on this tank and never got any nitrites after a month. Got a lot of good advice and insight during that time but eventually decided to cut bait and try it the other way. So...

Last Saturday, after draining and refilling the tank and making sure ammonia was at 0.0 ppm, and letting the tank run for a day or two (with a new Whisper 30 in addition to the sponge filter with airstone that is already in there), we went to the LFS and got two red wagtail platys (both female). Prior to this we added Tetra SafeStart. We're also using AquaSafe with any water changes etc. even though our water comes from a well, just to be safe. Acclimated them using the drip method and they have now been in there for nearly 6 days. Water is clear, fish are active, eating well, and look good. Yay!

The curious thing is that I haven't yet seen any ammonia - I test every morning with my API kit. This is good news for the fish, but it also means the cycle hasn't begun yet. Just to be sure I confirmed that I also have 0.0 ppm nitrites and nitrates. I imagine that it's only a matter of time before the ammonia builds - how could it not?

My question at the moment is - should I be doing water changes anyway, even with no ammonia in the tank? I did a small one (just 10%) a few days ago but I'm not sure there's any need to do changes unless I'm getting readings for ammonia and/or nitrites.

[Kayfish]

I would not do anymore water changes until ammonia shows up. Keep testing. Your fish are not being harmed and you won't have BB show up until there's some ammonia.

[Lady Hobbs]

You need not change water until it's necessary. No point in wasting your bacteria booster.

[prog_frog]

That was my thought too. Thanks, both of you.

[prog_frog]

Does it seem unusual that we are on day 9 and I still have no trace of ammonia in this tank? We have been feeding them for a week and they are definitely producing fish waste as they should. I would've thought the ammonia would've registered on my API kit by now, but I don't know what others have experienced when cycling with fish.

Also, I've seen other folks with whisper filters saying that they leave the charcoal part of the filtration out of the filter, and instead add more biomax. Do people feel that the charcoal is unnecessary?

[Kayfish]

Not sure about the charcoil thing. I know its recommended to take it out when medicating. On day 9 with those fish and regular feeding I would think you should have some ammonia present.

[prog_frog]

Still nothing this morning - I also checked nitrites to make sure the nitrosomas didn't sneak in there somehow, and that also read 0.0 ppm.

I didn't want to purchase more fish until we cycled but who knows when that will be given we aren't even seeing ammonia yet. This sort of fits with the fact that when I tried fishless cycling with flakes I went a week and got no reading. But now we have actual fish and their waste, plus the occasional flake that ends up escaping their hungry mouths, and it's been 10 days - it just seems we should've seen ammonia by now. After 5 weeks waiting in vain for nitrites on the fishless cycle, and now this, I dub this 10g "the uncyclable tank"! :)

At least we have fish to enjoy who seem healthy. One of the platys actually seems pregnant.

[bcg150]

Could it be your test kit? That seems the one common thing between your two problems. The failed fishless cycle and now no ammonia with a fish in cycle. If you know anyone that has another test kit you could try that or take a water sample to a lfs.

That is a an odd issue.

[Lady Hobbs]

Let's not forget that you had previous used flakes. It could be that you had grown the ammonia eating bacteria already. Cycling with flakes can take a long time because they must rot and break down to release ammonia. It's not like using pure ammonia to start with and having your ammonia level instantly.

Your original problem was not seeing nitrites but you were also doing constant water changes. Perhaps you have already grown your ammonia plus you added a bacteria booster so it just might be that your tank has cycled or the bacteria booster is simply neutralizing the ammonia and nitrites.

A 10 gallon is a very small tank so I would not have more platies but when you do add more fish, to get small fish like glowlight tetra's or other small fish.

The next time you cycle a tank fishless, leave the tank alone, do no water changes and let it do it's thing.

[prog_frog]

It can't hurt - though the kit is newish and seemed to be registering ammonia properly when I was adding pure ammonia during the failed fishless cycle. Still, confirmation would help rule that out as an explanation (and confirm that my fish are safe).

[prog_frog]

Your original problem was not seeing nitrites but you were also doing constant water changes. Perhaps you have already grown your ammonia plus you added a bacteria booster so it just might be that your tank has cycled or the bacteria booster is simply neutralizing the ammonia and nitrites.

Actually, I didn't do a single water change during the month+ of cycling with pure ammonia. I also didn't mess with the filters. I wondered about this too (maybe the tank cycled without me being able to detect it) but a few days ago I tested for nitrates and got a 0.0 ppm reading on that too. Since putting the fish in, I've only done a 10% water change once in 10 days, so if the tank is cycled I would think nitrates would start building up.

Crazy! :)

[Lady Hobbs]

Some cycles go off the beaten path and you wonder what happens. But at least your water is safe for the fish so I guess I wouldn't worry about it.

I had you mixed up with someone else, as well!!!!!! Can't keep all these cycling problems straight. LOL

[prog_frog]

I had you mixed up with someone else, as well!!!!!! Can't keep all these cycling problems straight. LOL

You help so many folks here (thanks!), so it's quite understandable!

My plan is to get the water tested at a LFS just to ensure that my test kit is working as it should, and keep testing for ammonia and occasionally nitrites. Not going to add any more fish at this point, especially with what looks like a pregnant platy in there.

[Lady Hobbs]

Well, I had responded to you correctly first then thought I had you mixed up with someone else so edited my post. But edited it to make you the wrong person! duh!

Babies will probably get eaten by the adults unless you can trap them and put them elsewhere.

[imma24]

Does it seem unusual that we are on day 9 and I still have no trace of ammonia in this tank? We have been feeding them for a week and they are definitely producing fish waste as they should. I would've thought the ammonia would've registered on my API kit by now, but I don't know what others have experienced when cycling with fish.

Also, I've seen other folks with whisper filters saying that they leave the charcoal part of the filtration out of the filter, and instead add more biomax. Do people feel that the charcoal is unnecessary?
Just wanted to add that, yes, charcoal is unnecessary unless you're trying to remove meds or a smell in the water - I asked the same question when I started - it's better to have more biological filter (biomax). I also did a cycle with fish - 4 goldfish in a 46gal - ammonia never went over .25 - it took quite some time.

[prog_frog]

Thanks, andreahp... I happened to pick up more biomax today so maybe I'll switch it out for the charcoal currently in there.

They also did confirm that I have no ammonia, no nitrites, and no nitrates. I guess that means my fish are probably liking the water currently, cycled or no.

[prog_frog]

Well, it's day 17 and I still have not ever seen a trace of ammonia or nitrites. Can't think of anything to do but start doing regular small water changes and continue monitoring water quality (though perhaps every day is no longer necessary).

I can't see how I missed the cycling process but nor can I explain how we would have 0 ppm ammonia after 2.5 weeks! It's a mystery. :)

[rodm81]

I'm cycling my 16 gal with 6 danios and took over a week for ammonia to show up.

[prog_frog]

Day 23 or so, and last night I saw the first trace of ammonia (0.25 ppm) and there also seemed to be some small amount of nitrAte (not quite 5.0 ppm). No nitrites. Interesting...

[Grangers710]

that's odd. Cycles are all different I guess. I'm cycling a 75 gallon with 2 gourami's and 4 tiger barbs (now down to 1 TB) and the ammonia came pretty quickly. I'll never fully understand all this :ssmile:

[prog_frog]

After getting those results, I did a 15-20% water change, partially because the tank was also a little cloudy. Not milky white exactly, almost like there were lots of very tiny bubbles (not from degassing, much smaller than those).

1.5 days later (just now) and it's still a bit cloudy as described above. I decided to test again and got the same results:

Ammonia 0.25 ppm
NitrItes 0.00 ppm
NitrAtes ~5.00 ppm

I'm debating about whether to do another WC. I don't want the fish to suffer but should I let it approach 0.50 ppm before doing a WC?

I know 5.0 nitrates is not that bad, and I'm not worried too much about the cloudiness - from what I've read here it's probably attributable to the cycling process? It's a mystery to me why I'd have both ammonia and nitrates but no nitrites!

[rodm81]

Since it took you such a while, I would do a wc at .50 ppm. Like I said in my earlier post I'm cycling my 16 gal bow front. I don't do my wc until .50 and my danios are still eating and swimming fast as ever.