Slow, steady loss of fish

[Brhino]

I'm at my wit's end here, people.

In June of last year I increased the number of fish in my community tank to 15 fish, and since that time it's varied mostly in the 15-20 range. It varies because I lose fish, and I buy new fish. The species have been what's listed in my signature now... it's just the numbers that fluctuate.

All in all I've lost 18 fish in the 9 months since then. That's 2 per month on average, and that average has been pretty constant. I lost two that June, one more in august, 3 in October, five in november, one in december, one in february, and, unless an albino corydoras that I couldn't find today mysteriously shows up tomorrow, five this month in march. The shortest amount of time between deaths has been 3 days. Sometimes the dead fish is a new addition that has been with me for a matter of weeks. Sometimes it's one that's been with me for months or a year (which is saying something since I've only been doing this for just over a year).

Only one fish had any recognizable symptoms long enough before death for me to attempt to treat. The rest have given no indication whatsoever, or, at most, have stopped eating and become a bit lethargic. No dropsy, no ich, no fin rot, no flashing, no fungus, no injuries, no nothing.

I've never had detectable ammonia or nitrites. Never large amounts of nitrate. Never a pH change, or a sudden temperature change. Never missed a weekly 50% water change by more than a day. Never had a filter or a heater or a pump fail.

WHY DO MY FISH KEEP DYING LIKE THIS?

What am I missing? What am I doing wrong? What aren't I testing for?

What kills fish so slowly but steadily, never with a mass die-off, but never failing to claim a victim sooner or later?

I know I've basically asked this question before, but I don't know what else to do. It's starting to seriously effect my enthusiasm for the hobby at all. I understand deaths will happen, but there's been so many of these that I learn absolutely nothing from at all, which means I'm not taking any steps to prevent it from happening. People have said "poor quality stock", which I hate because it seems like such an excuse. Even if it's true, what am I supposed to do? My fish come from a LFS with a good reputation. Am I to find another store, shop there for 9 months, buying new fish, replacing losses, until I have enough data to tell if I'm doing any better with those fish?

I'm frustrated beyond belief. As always, any advice is greatly appreciated.

[Cliff]

sorry if I missed this, but do you always buy your fish from the same place?

Your LFS might have a good rep in the market, but what about their fish supplier ?

As I know you keep you parameters in line, that would be my guess. Things like inbreeding of stock resulting in weeker fish and health problems latter on in their lives might be leading to your situation.

Just my $0.02

[Goes to 11!]

sorry if I missed this, but do you always buy your fish from the same place?
+1

This is my first question also.

[Brhino]

Yeah, everything has come from my one LFS except for the betta (which came from... the grocery store? either that or petsmart/co. Wife bought it.), and the RCS, which I got from aquabid.

[Goes to 11!]

With consistantly so many casualties, You have to consider the fact that if everything is good on your end. It might be the sourcing of your stock.

It's very possible that they are not aware that the stock has an above average mortality rate - even under good conditions.


People have said "poor quality stock", which I hate because it seems like such an excuse. Even if it's true, what am I supposed to do? My fish come from a LFS with a good reputation. Am I to find another store, shop there for 9 months, buying new fish, replacing losses, until I have enough data to tell if I'm doing any better with those fish?

Don't kill the messenger but one definition of insanity is: 'Doing the same thing over & over and expecting different results.' :hmm3grin2orange:

[mommy1]

do you immediately replace the dead fish or do you give it some time to see if more will die off. i know sometimes new ones die and sometimes older ones die, but i am interested to hear how quickly you replace the stock.
i'm wondering if it's maybe a parasite in the tank or possibly a dissolved oxygen issue.

[Brhino]

It varies. I buy fish in groups. Sometimes I buy a group not long after a fish has died, but sometimes there's a long gap. For example, there was a four month gap between July and November 2010 in which I added only 1 fish to the community tank. During that time I lost six fish. If it's a parasite, it's a very slow-spreading one.

My original community tank, which I considered "fully stocked", had two HoB filters and a bubble bar, so I find it unlikely that oxygenation could have been an issue in that tank. In the upgraded tank oxygenation may be an issue eventually (I plan to get a dissolved oxygen tester before I fully stock the tank), but as the tank is currently very lightly stocked I don't suspect I have an issue yet. In any case I have not seen any behaviors indicating potential oxygenation issues.

[mommy1]

sometimes its easier to find whats happening by ruling things out instead of looking for the actual cause.
some parasites do take time, some don't even kill the fish. so can't really rule that one out yet.
this tank is planted? is there a noticeable pattern to when the fish die, night, day, no discernible pattern. does the bubbler run all the time, so co2 isn't a problem?

[Brhino]

tank is planted, yes. Don't currently have a bubbler, but in the previous tank it did run all the time, yes.

Time of death is difficult to say. I don't typically actually witness the death. I do a headcount, often when I get home from work, and come up short. Then, I start searching for remains.

I was just looking at the tank again in the dark, and for a while I was convinced that I accounted for all five albino corydoras, including the one I figured to be dead. I can't be 100% certain, it's hard enough tracking them all with the lights on ("okay, there's 3 by the driftwood, and two under the wisteria, so that's all five. Wait... now there's only 2 under the driftwood, did one move to the wisteria?"). I certainly hope the fish is alive, but if so I've still lost four fish this month.

[mermaidwannabe]

You have RCS in the tank. How are they doing? Usually, invertebrates are more sensitive than fish, and if none of your RCS are dying off, you must have pretty good to excellent water conditions. I assume, of course, that you dechlorinate all new water you put into the tank.

I believe you ran a thread about glo-fish danios dying in significant numbers. These are genetically altered. They could be biologically unstable. And that could account for much of the loss. Anytime we mere mortals start messing around with genetics, we are in uncharted territory and the results can be less than desireable.

I also assume you don't overfeed and that the quality of food you give your fish is good, as well. I know you try to take very good care of your fish and your tanks.

So, like everyone else here, I think it's a safe bet that you either have poor quality stock, biologically unstable genetically altered fish, or some parasite or internal infection in your fish that manifests no outward symptoms.

I would have a talk with your LFS staff and tell them what has been going on. They might find issues with their suppliers. I'm sure if they're reputable, they don't want customers experiencing these kinds of losses so frequently. They'll probably want to get to the bottom of it as much as you do.

Sorry for all the losses. I know that when you've done all you can to maintain your fishes' good health and they still conk out without any obvious reason, it can be bewildering.

One other thing -- did you buy your tanks new or used? If used, could the previous owners have used soap in the tanks or some toxic substance gotten into them that may not have completely washed out when you cleaned them? If your tanks are new, there's no reason for anything to be in them that could harm fish. Still, sometimes things happen during the manufacturing process that cause trouble further down the line.

Just wondering if you might have wondered that, yourself ...

-- mermaidwannabe

[Crispy]

before you do a water change, check the ph of your tank and compare it to the ph of the new water. could be a buffering capacity issue and you could be experiencing ph swings?

[mommy1]

good point crispy.

[Orange Crush]

I've seen some LFS sell older fish (not juvies) as indicated by the size among other things. If you are getting older fish they will not live as long even in the best of conditions.
Try buying fish somewhere else and see if it makes any difference :)

[TypeYourTextHere]

Just my two cents, but are you absolutely positive that you removed all the fish carcasses? you said you tank is planted, so there is a somewhat decent chance that there is a body hiding somewhere that has a disease. I realize that you don't have an ammonia issue, but I figured i would mention it since no one else did.

[mermaidwannabe]

How do you acclimate your new fishes, and for how long?

Do you have a quarantine tank?

Here's what might help find out what's happening: Quarantine any new fish you get, and keep them in isolation for the average amount of time that newcomers generally survive in your main tank. Try to make sure all conditions in the quarantine tank equal as closely as possible the conditions in your main tank. During that time, observe them carefully and note any pecularities in behavior, appearance, eating habits, etc. When or if the new fish die while being quarantined, take the carcass(es) to the LFS from which you got them, along with all observations you've made during the quarantine period. Between you and the LFS staff -- assuming they're knowledeable and experienced -- your collective minds just might be able to come up with some answers, or at least some possibilities, you haven't thought of. If the LFS has the ability to autopsy dead fish, have them do so, or take the carcass(es) to a veterinarian who specializes in fish, and is capable of autopsying them.

This might mean keeping the new fish out of your main tank longer than you would like to, but if it yields any insights, it could be worth it.

I believe awhile back someone noted that fish, like any other animal, can suffer heart attacks or strokes. That may be one possibility to consider when a fish just suddenly drops dead for no apparant reason. I had a red glo-fish do that. It was swimming around perfectly normal at one end of my tank, near the bottom, and the moment it reached the opposite end, it began floating lifelessly along the substrate, carried by the current. It was that fast -- and that mysterious. There had been absolutely NO outward signs of stress or any other kind of trouble.

You might want to see if you can research which species of fish you keep is more prone than others to heart attack or stroke. The genetically altered ones come to mind, but some of the standards might fall into that category, as well.

These seem like long, drawn-out and somewhat tedious measures, but if they pay off, they're well worth the time and effort.

-- mermaid

[Brhino]

You have RCS in the tank. How are they doing?

The population exploded initially, and still seems to be thriving. Every now and then I find a dead one, which isn't surprising considering at this point I've got about 200 of them and the fish occasionally try to eat them.


I assume, of course, that you dechlorinate all new water you put into the tank.

yup.


I believe you ran a thread about glo-fish danios dying in significant numbers. These are genetically altered. They could be biologically unstable. And that could account for much of the loss.

Could be, although the fish I've had the least amount of success with is the corydoras.


One other thing -- did you buy your tanks new or used? If used, could the previous owners have used soap in the tanks or some toxic substance gotten into them that may not have completely washed out when you cleaned them?

Used, one from a friend and one from a stranger. It's a possibility, but you would think something like that would lead to lots of initial deaths, and then fewer and fewer as each weekly water change dilluted the toxin more and more.


before you do a water change, check the ph of your tank and compare it to the ph of the new water. could be a buffering capacity issue and you could be experiencing ph swings?

Maybe... I'll look into it tonight when I do the water change. If this were the case, you'd expect deaths to occur mainly in the period right after the water change, right?


I've seen some LFS sell older fish (not juvies) as indicated by the size among other things. If you are getting older fish they will not live as long even in the best of conditions.

The fish I get at this store are almost always noticeably juvenile-sized when I get them.


Just my two cents, but are you absolutely positive that you removed all the fish carcasses?

I had one fish that completely disappeared. I believe it may have been sucked out during a water change while I left the tank draining and unattended. Anything dead left in the tank will be quickly consumed... the shrimp and whatever else that eat dead fish have twice reduced a fish that died overnight to a skeleton the next morning.


How do you acclimate your new fishes, and for how long?

I use the "float the bag, gradually adding in tank water, then net the fish out" method.


Quarantine any new fish you get, and keep them in isolation for the average amount of time that newcomers generally survive in your main tank.

I do quarantine fish. The thing to keep in mind is that the newcomers are no more likely to die than the old fish. Sometimes it's a fish that I've had for less than a month, but for every time that happens there's a time where I lose one that I'd had for six months.



Thanks for all the responses so far.

[Cascade]

I totally understand your frustration. I had a go at Tanganyikan cichlids before finally giving up due to the frustration of random and unexplained deaths. The process of elimination left me with no other explanation besides "bad stock". It certainly is an unsatisfying conclusion to come to. I blamed it on having uncommon fish that only very few stores carried - so the gene pool (and subsequently my choices) was extremely limited.

You have detailed your setup and practices so thoroughly with your journal that it really leaves no obvious trail to investigate. Sure seems like it's all "by the book" to me.

For what it's worth, I had a cory up and die on me the other day. No reasonable explanation whatsoever (others are perfectly healthy, shrimp are reproducing, and parameters test out great every time). I have heard that most corys are wild caught, which means they've had an awful lot of trauma and stress before we ever see them. They may just not have much of a lifespan left when we get them (mine was already full grown when I got him, though I know you've said yours tend to be smaller). Maybe the particular supplier that your LFS purchases from has certain practices that overly stress the fish? Nobody could ever know for sure.

Again, not much of an answer, but at least some validation of what you already suspect. All I can say is hang in there, and maybe try out another store just for a little diversity in your stock. Do you go to the Fish Doctor? I always liked the Canton store more than the Ypsi store, the owner was really friendly and (as I recall) they had more FW fish than the one on Washtenaw.

[Lady Hobbs]

Bottom feeders are the most unlikely to survive ammonia spikes. I just wonder if you clean the filter media too well or too often and have spikes you aren't aware of. Most of us with established tanks don't test all that much and I wonder if you could be missing it?

This has been an ongoing problem for months so I don't think it's the fish and I don't think it's the acculimation process. But something is differently off. Are you doing big water changes or just topping off all the time and have you checked those nitrates? My son loses a lot of fish but with him I know why. He seldom does water changes and I know his nitrates are probably sky high. *sigh

I added bubblers to my tanks simply because the fish like it so much. They do fine with the filters but go bananas when I add those bubbles and I see a lot more activity in them.

[Brhino]

Do you go to the Fish Doctor? I always liked the Canton store more than the Ypsi store, the owner was really friendly and (as I recall) they had more FW fish than the one on Washtenaw.

Yup, that's where I go.


Bottom feeders are the most unlikely to survive ammonia spikes. I just wonder if you clean the filter media too well or too often and have spikes you aren't aware of. Most of us with established tanks don't test all that much and I wonder if you could be missing it?

Possible, although if that were the case you'd expect the details would be shortly after filter maintenance, right? That hasn't been the case.


Are you doing big water changes or just topping off all the time and have you checked those nitrates?

50% weekly changes. Nitrates are typically around 5-10 these days.


I added bubblers to my tanks simply because the fish like it so much. They do fine with the filters but go bananas when I add those bubbles and I see a lot more activity in them.

I've been trying to avoid them with the new tank since I'm trying to keep a very natural feel, but there are some places I've got in mind to add a couple if need be. guess I should move forward on that.

[Lady Hobbs]

I don't think so Brhino. If you do a large water change and clean the filter, the water will be perfect again for several days or so until the ammonia gets a chance to climb up. Just like in a new tank, you can add fish and won't see high ammonia levels for several days.

I think we all have bought fish not well and had deaths due to that. But to continually buy fish that are not well would be very unlikely, IMO.

[Brhino]

I think we all have bought fish not well and had deaths due to that. But to continually buy fish that are not well would be very unlikely, IMO.

So, it's your opinion that this is not a "poor stock" issue, but rather some other undiagnosed problem?

Also: aren't shrimp really susceptible to ammonia and nitrites? Shouldn't I see die-offs in the shrimp population if I had any mini-cycles severe enough to affect a fish?

[Lady Hobbs]

Not that I can see. I actually find shrimp to be pretty darned hardy. They were shipped to me in the dead of winter in ice cold water. I have treated for internal worms with them in the tank and today I will be treating with Maracyn. I have overdosed with Excel (in a tank with nothing but shrimp) and even that did not kill them but I sure lost some corys when I dosed with Excel at the recommended dose.

But who knows? When you have a few shrimp, you end up with hundreds so I guess some could have died but with so many you don't miss a few anyway. But I think something else is going on, honestly. Poor stock might be now and then but not all the time month after month.

[mermaidwannabe]

Since the corys are the ones you have least success with, is your pH, water hardness and temperature within the range that they need to have it in order for them to do well?

Do they prefer softer, neutral or harder water? More acidic or more alkaline? What temperature range do they require?

What kind of substrate is best for corys? I take it you vacuum the substrate regularly?

May I suggest that you try drip acclimation for new fish? That seems to be the best method for fish that are particularly sensitive to change. You do your acclimating like I do mine, and while that works pretty well most of the time, there are some fish that will survive better if drip acclimated over a long period of time.

I suppose it's possible for even younger fish to suffer heart attack or stroke, if they have some internal genetic malfunction of their heart or circulatory systems, but you wouldn't expect that to be the cause with all the deaths, as often as they occur.

This is a real mystery -- but do try the drip acclimation for any new fish you get. It just may take their systems longer to acclimate to the different water they're going into.

Do you know the parameters of the LFS water in which these fish are kept at the store? How closely do they match the parameters in your tanks? Is there a wide difference, or do they match pretty closely?

Does your LFS use salt in all their aquariums? Do you use salt in yours? It could be quite a shock to a new fish if it is accustomed to an aquarium that has some salt in it, then goes into one with no salt, at all.

Just some more possibilities to consider ....

-- mermaid

[Spardas]

Well, there can only be 2 issues that come to my mind in your scenario:

1) Poor quality stock

2) Source of water

From what I've seen, your management of your tanks are more than adequate for the typical hobbyists so it lead me to these 2 conclusions.

I'm leaning more towards bad quality stock but there has been issues with domesticated tap water before and I'd like to mention them out if you just want to check up.

1) Check with water company and see what they have been doing (any changes in source of water supply, any extra chemicals added to water supply, any maintenance on pipes recently, etc.)

2) Old iron or copper pipes rusting?

3) Stable pH, KH from tap water?

4) Maybe you mentioned this in your previous posts, but how do you change your water?

Some people can just use dechlor and add water straight with tap but some will have serious issues if they did this.

Example:
a) pH swing as it stabilizes
b) super saturation
c) old water heaters
d) bad pipes

In any case, I always use aged water. I run cold water and heat it up in the barrels. I also ensure that the water is well aerated. Most importantly, I make a point to the water company to notify to me if they make any changes in the water supply or fix anything that would affect my drinking water.

Here's a good article on super saturation:

http://www.tbas1.com/TBASpdf/June2009.pdf

Is your LFS using the same water as you?

[Brhino]

Since the corys are the ones you have least success with, is your pH, water hardness and temperature within the range that they need to have it in order for them to do well?

pH and temperature are within the commonly recommended range for all fish I put in my tanks. I haven't tested water hardness.


May I suggest that you try drip acclimation for new fish?

I don't see how acclimation technique could be related, since typically the fish have been in the tank for months before they die.


Do you know the parameters of the LFS water in which these fish are kept at the store? How closely do they match the parameters in your tanks? Is there a wide difference, or do they match pretty closely?

They get their water from the same utility company I do, so at least on the way in to my house and their store, the water should be identical.


Does your LFS use salt in all their aquariums? Do you use salt in yours?

I do not and I don't believe they do either. Again, seems to me that would be an acclimation issue that would cause problems immediately, not months later.


1) Check with water company and see what they have been doing (any changes in source of water supply, any extra chemicals added to water supply, any maintenance on pipes recently, etc.)

I have checked it periodically and haven't found anything unusual. In any case, no more than a couple deaths could be attributed to this unless they were tinkering with things constantly, since the deaths are so spread out.


2) Old iron or copper pipes rusting?

House is only 15 years old, so plumbing should all be modern and in good shape.


3) Stable pH, KH from tap water?

pH is stable (at least, it has been... going to check it again tonight). I have not tested KH.


4) Maybe you mentioned this in your previous posts, but how do you change your water? Some people can just use dechlor and add water straight with tap but some will have serious issues if they did this.

I use a python, and I add dechlor to the tank just before beginning to fill it back up with new water.


Here's a good article on super saturation:

http://www.tbas1.com/TBASpdf/June2009.pdf\

Interesting, although the article describes behavioral symptoms that I have not observed, and I have also not noticed any correlation between when my fish die and when I do the water change. Although... let me look into that further.


Is your LFS using the same water as you?

Yes.

[Lab_Rat]

I agree with Spardas, but would like to throw out another option. Some kind of slow moving disease. Your maintenance, stocking, filtration is definitely better than most peoples. One thing I have noticed in some of your pics is some of your fish do not healthy at all; other fish in the tank look nice and healthy. I'll post a couple of examples from your threads.

Albino cory missing whiskers and fin erosion on all fins:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c376/starmike82/DSC_0050.jpg

Zebra danio that looks like it is wasting. A danio should not be this skinny if healthy:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c376/starmike82/DSC_0172-1.jpg

The albino cory on the left shows serious barbel and fin erosion. Compare it to the smaller albino on the right. Also, the glofish in this pic is wasting as well:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c376/starmike82/DSC_0184.jpg

Again, more wasting:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c376/starmike82/DSC_0223.jpg

Barbel and fin erosion:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c376/starmike82/DSC_0369.jpg

Now I do not know what would be causing the erosion on the cories, generally that is a water quality issue, but you have an aggressive maintenance routine. I also do not know what to make of the wasting. I hate treating when not knowing what is wrong, but if they were mine I'd be tempted to treat with clout.

[Red]

I could see the problem with being internal parasites. Sorry if mentioned above, but what is your feeding like? Any frozen food? And live brine, or black worms?

[Spardas]

Albino cory missing whiskers and fin erosion on all fins:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c376/starmike82/DSC_0050.jpg


Thanks for digging up those pictures, LR. Definitely some unhealthy stocking, which may be attributed to bad stock but this first picture caught my eyes.

The bubbles on the glass. Did you just do a water change and took the picture?

[Aeonflame]

Great points made by lab rat. I cant say for sure about the fin erosion, but the danio wasting is a problem I have some experience with. It almost always seems to happen to fish from in the same batch from the lfs. Also, it often takes quite a while for the condition of the fish to noticeably deteriorate; much longer than the quarantine period. At this point its is hard to treat and death is often inevitable. I have tried several commercial anti-parasitic medications with little success. For danios, I discovered that buying from small home breeders gave me healthier stock.

[Red]

Great points made by lab rat. I cant say for sure about the fin erosion, but the danio wasting is a problem I have some experience with. It almost always seems to happen to fish from in the same batch from the lfs. Also, it often takes quite a while for the condition of the fish to noticeably deteriorate; much longer than the quarantine period. At this point its is hard to treat and death is often inevitable. I have tried several commercial anti-parasitic medications with little success. For danios, I discovered that buying from small home breeders gave me healthier stock.

Agreed, zebra danios are bred in the hundreds of thousands, which is why some of us see the price under 1$ even .50 cents, and when you get that mass overbreeding you will get some deformity which you get in guppies.

[Cermet]

Corydoras prefer sand substrates and while your gravel is fairly fine, it does look like it could cause the "whiskers" and fins to erode. Not certain if this is the case.

Do you stir and vacuum the gravel periodically? Pockets of nasty ammonia or nitrites or other nasties could be created by bacteria in some areas of the gravel and injure fish but not raise the whole tank to levels that your kit (esp. after some hours) could measure.

My two cents:18:

[Brhino]

Multiquoting is going to get a bit messy here, so I'll break away from it for a moment and address comments by topic. And holy cow, every time I prepare to post more people have added

Diet - mostly they get pellets and sinking tablets, but they do occasionally get live brine shrimp or frozen bloodworms.

Corys: My original stocking of corydoras was a disaster. Of the 9 I bought (6 bronze, 3 albino) only 2 lived longer than 6 months. The two survivors (the albino you pointed out and picture 1 and 3, and the bronze is in picture 3 as well) have barbel erosion and fin damage. I attributed the losses and damage to the fact that I had cluttered up the bottom of the 29g aquarium with plants, driftwood, and decorations, which significantly reduced the floor space and led to territorial issues between the corys and the bristlenose pleco. In the new tank, I have prioritized leaving sufficient open floor space. The two survivors are still alive, and the fin and barbel damage has stabilized but not improved. I have added 10 additional corys to the new tank, none of which have shown signs of fin or barbel damage, but 3 have since died.

As far as substrate, the 29g tank had sand. Before I purchased the substrate I have in the new tank as seen in the photos, I asked around. Lady Hobbs for one reported no difficulty in keeping corydoras on it.

Zebra Danio (picture 2): that fish was the only danio/glofish that did not school with the others when I moved everything to the new tank, and after a couple days I noticed he was not eating either. That picture was taken specifically as I was noting my concern about him, and he died a week after the tank move. I attributed his behavior and death due to stress from the tank move, but why it affected him so much when all the other fish seemed okay, I don't know.

Glofish wasting: My observation with my glofish/danios is that the young ones start out quite slender and skinny, and then after a few months develop into fat females or males that I would call "broadchested". The one(s) (I had two identical orange glofish, so I'm not sure if it's the same or not) in these photographs had been with me for about 2 months at the time of the pictures. One died last Saturday.

I agree that the zebra was starving, but I am surprised that people say the glofish is wasting, as to me it is normal looking. This is by no means to say that I am "right", far from it - I am simply saying that it is consistent with what I am used to seeing after a year of keeping danios.

Bubbles: the picture was taken within hours of the tank being setup. I do get a considerable amount of bubbles on the acrylic when I do a water change. I have attributed it to a property of the acrylic itself, since I get significantly less bubbles on my glass tanks.


_______

Again, thank you everyone for all the input. I'd especially like to thank Lab_Rat for combing through my aquarium journal and studying the pictures to find things that concerned her. She's really gone above and beyond trying to help me out here.

[Lab_Rat]

Glofish wasting: My observation with my glofish/danios is that the young ones start out quite slender and skinny, and then after a few months develop into fat females or males that I would call "broadchested". The one(s) (I had two identical orange glofish, so I'm not sure if it's the same or not) in these photographs had been with me for about 2 months at the time of the pictures. One died last Saturday.

I agree that the zebra was starving, but I am surprised that people say the glofish is wasting, as to me it is normal looking. This is by no means to say that I am "right", far from it - I am simply saying that it is consistent with what I am used to seeing after a year of keeping danios.

_______

Again, thank you everyone for all the input. I'd especially like to thank Lab_Rat for combing through my aquarium journal and studying the pictures to find things that concerned her. She's really gone above and beyond trying to help me out here.
The glofish pics I pulled above def look wasting to me. The glofish should have the same robust bodies as the regular zebra danios and golden danios. They should look like this one. Notice there is no indent after the gills as there is in the glofish pictured above. The gills should not appear to protrude on a healthy danio.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c376/starmike82/DSC_0669.jpg

I hope you're able to figure out the issue as it totally sucks when you're trying to do everything right and fish keep dying. The more I look at those pics above the more I think some kind of parasite.

[Brhino]

They should look like this one.

And I was worried that that one was overfed...

I think tonight I'll try to get a clear shot of each of my danios (I'll edit them all into a couple images so as not to be obnoxious) so people can weigh in on them. I'm starting to get the impression that what I think is "healthy" is anorexic, and what I think is "overweight" is healthy.

[Lab_Rat]

And I was worried that that one was overfed...

I think tonight I'll try to get a clear shot of each of my danios (I'll edit them all into a couple images so as not to be obnoxious) so people can weigh in on them. I'm starting to get the impression that what I think is "healthy" is anorexic, and what I think is "overweight" is healthy.

I think that would be a very good idea.

[mermaidwannabe]

The general consensus seems to be parasite, and now I'm inclined to agree, since I've seen the pictures.

You might want to vary their diet a little more, just to keep it interesting for them and balance their nutrition more. Do you have any fish that are really, really finicky at feeding time -- that consistently refuse or ignore what you give them? A varied diet usually results in everybody liking something, even if they don't like everything.

A nicely filled out fish is a healthy fish. If the fish were obese, you would know it. There's a real difference between being nicely filled out and being obese.

The rotting barbels and fins on the cories, despite good water quality, must be either parasitic or some internal bacterial infection. I don't know what else would cause that, if water quality is consistently good.

Just to know where you're at, I would suggest getting a test kit for water hardness and finding out what range yours falls into.

I agree that your perceptions of healthy and overweight are off. The picture I saw of the filled-out danio is a nice, healthy fish, but not an overweight one.

-- mermaid

[Taurus]

I hope you're able to figure out the issue as it totally sucks when you're trying to do everything right and fish keep dying. The more I look at those pics above the more I think some kind of parasite.

Very well said Labby. I agree with internal parasites. I've had Prazi Pro recommended to me by a very knowledgeable fish keeper for internal parasites.

[Brhino]

I'm looking through my old pictures now, and it seems that some of the danios/glofish have gotten skinnier than they once were. I knew that was the case with some of the fish such as the danio Lab_Rat linked, but I found a pic with the orange glofish looking healthier, too. That surprised me. I'll try and take things a step further and include past and current pictures of fish side-by-side where possible.

For those that wish examine my journal in-depth as Lab_Rat did, it's actually in two threads.
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=61802 this thread covers the 29g tank starting in April 2010, and then covers both the 29g and 60g after I moved the goldfish to the 60g. It runs up until February 2011, when I moved the community from the 29g to the 75g. After that, this thread covers the 75g community tank:
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=69050&page=19
The first 18 pages of that thread are about the setup of the 75g tank. The fish get added on page 19.

[Brhino]

Okay, here is a picture of every live danio I currently have. Quality on some isn't great, hard to take a picture of fish that move this fast.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c376/starmike82/group1.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c376/starmike82/group2.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c376/starmike82/group3.jpg
Any gender descriptions are my assumption, feel free to correct if I'm wrong! Here's how long I've had each fish:

Big Red: 1 year
Small Red: 3 weeks
Yellow Female: 1 year
Yellow Male: 3 weeks
Orange: 3 months
Golden Female: 3 weeks
Golden Male: 3 weeks
Zebra Female: 1 year
Major Irregular: 3 months
Minor Irregular: 3 months

[Lab_Rat]

Orange and minor irregular both look like they're wasting to me. Male yellow also concerns me a little, his topline looks sunken in. Big red and major irregular look on the thin side but look a lot healthier than the ones mentioned prior. Zebra female and yellow female look loaded with eggs.

That's what I'm seeing weight/health wise, though I am far from a danio expert.

[Brhino]

so, based on these photos are you comfortable enough with the diagnosis of internal parasites to recommend treating for them?

What about the corys? The same issue with them, or a different one?


Zebra female and yellow female look loaded with eggs.

This has been my uneducated assumption as well. In all the time I've had them, I've had one spawning, and those eggs were unfertilized. Everyone says "danios will always spawn", so that's always been a puzzle to me, although lately I've seen people saying they need a diet of nothing but live/frozen food to get them to spawn, so just started a program this week of feeding a lot more of that. Could their lack of spawning be related to the other problems, or is it the live food issue?

[Lab_Rat]

If they were mine, I would probably treat (clout would be my choice for treatment). You may want to wait for more people to weigh in. Unfortunately, barbel and fin erosion would not be caused by parasites, but rather by a bacterial issue. Possibly a parasitic infection could make a secondary bacterial infection more likely to take hold (suppressed immune system), but that is simply a theory, I do not have literature to back that up.

There are many reasons fish don't spawn, but if there is indeed a parasite problem, it would not surprise me that they weren't spawning. Many breeders condition their fish with live foods to enhance spawning, but it very much depends on the species. My various cichlids spawn on pellets, though if I took the time to culture foods I may have even more spawns.

[Brhino]

I will wait for more opinions, but under the assumption that we're going with your plan...

I have a package of clout here. It says "Do not use with: ...scale-less fish, bottom feeders... or invertebrates". So, I guess we're talking about moving the danios to QT to treat. I assume I'd need to move all of them, since who's to say which ones might have an early stage of parasites but aren't showing signs of wasting yet? That would mean if the parasites are present on the corys or the pleco, or freeswimming in the water, then I wouldn't get all of them. Right?

[Brhino]

And now, to make things worse, I think I've injured one of the glofish. I was doing a water change and when I switched the python over to fill mode, it blasted a stream of air and water out initially, and one of the fish got knocked back pretty good. Now he's swimming more slowly than normal and opening and closing his mouth a lot. @#$%.

I worked so hard on this tank and these fish and now I don't even want to look at it anymore because I'm afraid of what I'll see when I do.

[Brhino]

Checked on him again. He actually swam up to the glass, then pointed his nose down, and then he rolled over, belly up, and drifted away in the current. He was still alive, but I fished him out and euthanized him. He had a large indentation and bruise right around the anus... the blast from the python must have knocked him into something hard.

Three hundred and seventy seven days I had that fish, and then I killed him with a two second mistake.

Six fish dead this month, one or two by my own hand.

I don't know what else to say.

[mermaidwannabe]

Aw, Brhino, don't feel so badly. I accidentally killed one of my Rosy Barbs the other day when I failed to see her dart underneath my siphon hose, and it sucked her up against its rough end edges and ripped her open. She didn't survive that injury, either, so I've put her to good use in my flowerbed, fertilizing the soil.

These things happen. They certainly aren't intentional, and when we think of the great quality of life we try to give our fish, it's fair to say that by and large, they're very lucky little creatures.

Whatever is going on inside your tank, you're trying your darndest to find out so you can remedy it. That's all any pet can ask for. The best effort on our part to ensure its well-being.

Regular maintenance is necessary, and since most of us try to be as careful as we can, many more fish benefit from it than are harmed by it. These kinds of accidents are actually quite rare.

Nobody is perfect. Don't beat yourself up.

-- mermaid

[Brhino]

I'm feeling a bit better this morning, I guess. I really do like sitting and watching my fish... I just hate it when I've had deaths. When that happens, it's not relaxing to watch them at all, because I'm constantly worried that they're not behaving normally, or that any fish I can't see is dead. Now that I've got at least two that I know are sick, that just makes it worse.

Anyhow, what about anti-parasite food? I've got some jungle labs stuff, and according to the label it should be safe for everything I have. It floats, though, so I'm not sure how I'd get any to the corys.

[MCools]

Your thinking internal parasites, right? Have you thought about garlic? You can mix that with the pellets you normally use.

I copied this a while back, maybe it could help:
Wrote this up this afternoon after mixing up a batch. I hope its helpful.
———
Most fish, those wild caught especially, come equipped with a full complement of parasitic nematode worms in their intestines. In healthy fish, they don't bother them. In new or wild caught fish that have been starved for some time due to shipping, the worms can kill them. Mysterious deaths of newer fish can often be attributed to these worms.
The solution? Feed Garlic.
Mixing fresh garlic with food is my standard method with new fish. It takes six weeks of daily feeding with garlic-laced foods to eradicate the worms, but as fish like the garlic so much, I feed it to them all the time.
You'll need cloves of garlic from the grocery store, a garlic or lime press from a cooking shop, and a quality pellet. Put the pellets into a bowl. Peel the garlic, and take out the tan kernels. Place two or three kernels in the press, squeeze until the garlic is pureed and in the bowl. Do as many kernels as it takes to have about 30 percent garlic to the pellets. Mix the pellets with the garlic; I use a cocktail spoon. Then feed the fish.
I know some folks who puree the garlic in a blender, but the juices are precipitated out that way, making the garlic less effective.
The worms can't metabolize the garlic-laced food, and slowly starve. It takes six weeks to eradicate them all. If you see your fish expel little white strings, thats dead nematodes.
The garlic also seems to strengthen and enliven the fish. I've never met a fish that wouldn't take garlic-laced foods; one that wouldn't is probably too far gone.

Dave
He usually has some good advice.

[boogernose]

Hang in there, Brhino! I know exactly how you feel. I've been struggling with keeping my mollies alive and before that, I was overfeeding and killing my fish that way. I killed one of the mollies by letting a powerhead run without attaching it to anything. He got sucked up into the bottom of it and died. Killed a guppy fry by releasing him into the aquarium too early. Angelfish snatched him right up. Stuff like this happens. There were many times where I wanted to give up, but I'm glad I didn't. When things start to stabilize for you, you'll be happy you kept on going too.

[Taurus]

Feeding New Life Spectrum 1mm Thera A+ pellets is another option. There's quite a bit of garlic in the pellets...lol..enough so I can smell it after feeding. It's not an unpleasant at all though.

And Brhino, loosing fish is part of keeping fish. It happens to all fish keepers sooner or later. It's all part of the learning process. You're going to be a better fish keeper because of what you have learned.

FYI, Clout combats aquarium illness and infestations associated with external parasites .

[Brhino]

Feeding New Life Spectrum 1mm Thera A+ pellets is another option. There's quite a bit of garlic in the pellets...lol..enough so I can smell it after feeding. It's not an unpleasant at all though.

I actually just picked up some NLS. I told my wife it smelled good, but she disagrees.

That stuff sinks, too, so the corys can eat it (although I can't feed it to my goldfish). Do you think there's enough in there to really combat parasites? "keep feeding the new food you just got and everything will be fine" is obviously a pleasing option, but I wonder if it's too easy.

[Lab_Rat]

You can try the anti-parasitic food if your fish will eat it. Garlic is a good idea as well. If they were mine I'd still hit them with clout, but I've never used clout outside a QT tank.

You may also want to consider keeping a different species of fish, other than zebra danios. There are certain fish I just have not had good luck with, such a guppies, though I have no problem keeping much more sensitive and difficult fish.

[Brhino]

well, the only species I've kept in appreciable numbers (danios and corys) have suffered lots of losses... so at this point I can't really point to good success with another species to compare to (unless you count shrimp, I guess). I do plan on adding more species, starting potentially as soon as this weekend, so maybe it'll be a different story later. I don't know.

[Lab_Rat]

My point was that not everyone has success with every species of fish, you have to find the ones that work for your and your water. For example, your BN and gourami both look very healthy from the pics I've seen. Maybe try some tetras of some sort instead of the zebra danios, and some other type of bottom dweller other than cories.

[Brhino]

So we've got three possible theories as to the problems, each with different but not necessarily incompatible solutions?

Theory: internal parasites
Solution: anti-parasitic food or medicine

Theory: poor stock from bad suppliers
Solution: obtain fish from different store

Theory: difficulty keeping specific species
Solution: stock different species

[Lab_Rat]

Or parasites + poor stock + difficulty keeping specific species. They are not mutually exclusive of each other.

[mermaidwannabe]

You might still want to have a chat with the folks at your LFS, and let them know this has been happening, and what your parameters are, etc. They might decide to change to better suppliers, and then you'll be able to continue using that LFS with improved results. Chances are that if you are getting poor quality stock from them, other customers are, too, and if it happens to too many people, it could hurt their business.

Meanwhile, perhaps trying all three of the possible solutions to all three of the possible problems you've narrowed down our information to might just end up solving the problem. All three are real possibilities, and all three make sense.

Best of success to you. You are one of the more conscientious pet parents. Wish more people could be that way with their pets.

-- mermaid

[Brhino]

yeah, I meant to talk to them when I went in to get some Prime last night, but it was extra crowded and my daughter was engaged in a shouting match with a little boy, so it turned out not to be the best time.

[Taurus]

Parasites + poor stock + difficulty keeping specific species= recipe for disaster. Been there, done that. I have leanred how to walk away from stock that doesn't look healthy nor exhibit odd behavior. I usually watch stock now for a couple of weeks to make sure they are healthy. Even then it's a crap shoot.

Your best best is to buy or otherwise acquire stock from local breeders either through a club or auction.

[boogernose]

I actually just picked up some NLS. I told my wife it smelled good, but she disagrees.

That stuff sinks, too, so the corys can eat it (although I can't feed it to my goldfish). Do you think there's enough in there to really combat parasites? "keep feeding the new food you just got and everything will be fine" is obviously a pleasing option, but I wonder if it's too easy.
My corys particularly like the Thera-A, and that's one fish that I've been able to keep alive. As for it helping other fish, I don't know. My other fish prefer flakes and usually spit out the NLS pellets. They do, however, nibble on the H2O stable wafers. I don't think that contains as much garlic as the Thera-A though.

[Brhino]

Okay, I think I have a plan:

I will immediately start feeding the main tank as follows:

3 days per week, jungle labs anti-parasite medicated food (its instructions call for it to be fed 3 days per week). Sinking pellets for the corys those days as they won't be able to eat the floating jungle labs stuff.
3 days per week, NLS

This should combat any internal parasites that may be present. In particular, I'll keep an eye on the two skinny danios, see if they improve, die, or stay the same.

Meanwhile, I will continue will my previous stocking plan. This weekend I'm out looking for some nice blue platies. Later in April or May I'll also be adding a school of black skirt tetras. These will be new species obviously, and also by necessity they will not be purchased from my regular LFS (which does not have a good selection of those two particular species). Each species will be quarantined before addition to the community tank as normal.

This will address all three potentially identified issues. It may or may not solve any of them, and I may or may not continue to lose fish, either of my current schools or of the incoming ones, but hopefully it will give us more data to work with.

[Brhino]

well, the carnage continues into April. Found the old bronze cory, the only survivor of last summer's batch of them, dead this morning. As I've mentioned, she had fin and barbel damage from her time in the previous tank which had never fully healed, so it's not like I can claim she was 100% healthy. Still, strange that she could live with those injuries for months with seemingly no ill effect and then suddenly drop dead overnight.

[Rue]

I have no ideas to offer you...I hope your new plan works out...

[Lady Hobbs]

I found Prazi-Pro far more easier than trying to get them to eat parasitic medication. Some will eat and others won't eat at all. And if your fish like their NLS, I don't think they will be happy with a food change and will probably stick their noses up at it. Mine just plain won't touch the stuff and I have two bottles of it sitting here. I don't think your plan will work. I think the fish would have to darned near be starved to eat that medicated food.

Prazi gets to all of them, is a very mild medication, doesn't discolor the water, mess with the BB and the fish do not get stressed and carry on as if it was not there. Even if they have no parasite, it sure does flush the fish out. It only takes one application and not days and days of it, too. It's for all parasites internal and external and the same price as these parasitic foods. I treat my fish a couple times a year just "in case".

Garlic food is said to help prevent worms but not get rid of existing ones so who knows?

I can offer up no ideas to your problem at all. I can't believe that many fish would have worms but it makes you wonder about fill flukes or bacterial infections that are getting spread around.

We had a member here a few years back that contacted TB in his tank and it eventually killed everything. He had to tear his tank down, disinfect the whole tank but when he set the tank back up, it wiped everything out again. He finally kept nothing but plants. Obviously no point in having a fish tank any longer.

I started using ( Prazi) after reading that many fish carry internal parasites their whole life and it's the cause for Hexamita.

[Brhino]

is it safe for scaleless fish, inverts, all of that?

[Lady Hobbs]

http://www.rockymountaindiscus.com/prazipro.htm

For scalesless, yes. It does not burn skin like ick medication does. On the inverts check on that but I don't think so. Do some reading on it and see what you can find.

[Brhino]

google finds at least a few people that have used it with shrimp without problems, and nobody has reported using it with shrimp and killing them, that I've seen, yet. For the record everyone is eating the medicated food, but given that it takes four weeks to work, I wonder how much worse the fish would get by then... if it is parasites at all.

Seems like every theory that is put forth, people say "I don't think that many fish would be suffering from that". :scry:

[Lady Hobbs]

I know this is frustrating as heck and you are getting brain overload. Everyone is just tossing ideas out there hoping something might stick as a solution. I know you are frustrated as heck.

Parasitic meds may or may not work for internal worms but won't do anything for gill flukes if per chance that's a possiblilty.
Since there are no warnings on the bottle regarding shrimp, it is most likely safe.

[Brhino]

gill flukes would have noticeable behavioral symptoms though, right?

[mermaidwannabe]

Sounds like the Prazi-Pro might be the way to go. From what Lady Hobbs is saying, it's safe (even for shrimp), massively effective without harming healthy fish, much faster working than medicated food, and the whole tank can be treated with it without having to remove fish to a separate hospital tank, won't hurt plants, and is good for both internal and external parasites.

If I were in your situation, I would definitely try this. It can't hurt, and it might just be the answer.

It also sounds like it might be a good preventative measure. While we never want to put "unnecessary" chemicals into our tanks, if we can put in something that will nip a problem in the bud before it spreads or becomes severe, so much the better. Especially if it's generally safe.

I would seriously consider trying this remedy.

Just my plug-nickel's worth ....

-- mermaidwannabe

[Taurus]

Very well said Labby. I agree with internal parasites. I've had Prazi Pro recommended to me by a very knowledgeable fish keeper for internal parasites.


The "very knowledgeable fish keeper" that I refer to above is MCHKiller. Killer used to manage a LFS. According to Killler, she used to treat all incoming stock to the store with PraziPro just in case the stock was infected by internal parasites. Killer has never lead me wrong. I take her advice anytime she is willing to give it. PraziPro would be the first treatment that I'd use in your situation.

I do agree with Lab_Rat about trying some tetras or other hardier species that haven't been subject to mass breeding and genetic alterations.

If I were to pick one very hardy member of the tetra family, is would be Pristella maxillaris. Pristellas are not bullet proof, but they are very hardy and will thrive in all types of water parameters and have a broad temperature range. I keep them and have never had an issue with there health.

[Brhino]

all right, I'm off to the fish store(s). I am to return with some prazipro and some new fish, either platys or black skirt tetras (depending on if I can find any blue platys). We'll treat the tank (and the new fish while we're at it) and see if we can't start turning this trend around.

[Lady Hobbs]

The "very knowledgeable fish keeper" that I refer to above is MCHKiller. I agree and I know she also uses it. To me, it's much like getting a new puppy and having it wormed by the vet to make sure it's healthy right from the start. This might not be what his problem is or solve it for him but at least he will know it's not worms and is cheap enough not to take the extra precaution.

I read on some forum today someone wrote: " Is PraziPro safe if ammonia levels are 2?" Some people are simply hopeless!!!!

[Taurus]

Excellent analogy LH. :ssmile:

[mermaidwannabe]

I'm going on Google shortly to research Pristella maxillaris. Since they seem to tolerate a broad temperature range, I'm going to try to find out if they can thrive in cooler water which stays pretty constant at around 68F. Also, how big they get and what their community temperament is like. If all factors are suitable, I may get some of those for my tank.

And Brhino, best of success to you. I know it has been rough! Let's hope the Prazi-Pro does the trick.

-- mermaid

[mermaidwannabe]

No-go for the Pristellas in my tank. They require a temperature range of 75 -- 82F, and will eat small shrimp. Just thought I would check them out since Taurus mentioned them.

-- mermaid

[Cermet]

How about Paradisefish - they prefer water in the range of 61 F - 75 F?

Or an American Flagfish - likes around 64 F?

:hmm3grin2orange:

[Taurus]

No-go for the Pristellas in my tank. They require a temperature range of 75 -- 82F, and will eat small shrimp. Just thought I would check them out since Taurus mentioned them.

-- mermaid

Right, Pristellas are still a tropical fish. When I said broad temperature range, I meant upper....about the same as Angels. That's why they make good tankmates.

[mermaidwannabe]

Cermet, that American Flagfish isn't red, white and blue, is it? Does such a fish really exist?

I'll be checking Google, but I have a feeling you're pulling my leg (?) No? We'll see. :hmm3grin2orange:

-- mermaid

[Brhino]

All right, Prazipro is in the water now. Hope it was supposed to be pink-colored in the bottle.... wasn't expecting that. :sconfused:

[mermaidwannabe]

Let's hope the Prazi Pro takes care of your parasite situation. From what I've read here, it comes highly recommended.

Cermet, I was half kidding about the American Flag Fish. Google shows it a very beautiful little fish -- maybe will be fine for my 65-gallon when I get it cycled.The males are territorial, so not sure if I could keep more than one together.

The Paradisefish is nice because it can thrive in smaller tanks. Can get by without a lot of current, though not sure if having fast flow would hurt them any. Also, a bit on the aggressive side.

I'm not sure how either of these would do in a community tank. I'm planning of putting my goldfish into my 65-gallon, along with my Rosy Barbs and Hi-Fin. I'm also going to be getting Dojos. As long as neither fish species will hurt these other fish, I'll give them a try. They both seem to be good fish for coldwater tanks.

Thanks, Cermet, and Brhno, hope the Prazi-Pro works for you.

-- mermaid

[Spardas]

I'd say do 3 weeks of treatment with the standard dosage.

[Brhino]

Do you recommend that in general for new fish as a preventative, or just because in this case we have actual evidence of possible parasite infestation?

[Spardas]

This is for your case only.

General preventive can be done with 1 week if nothing seems unusual. 5-7 days is not enough for certain type of parasites. Let's say flukes for example.

Generally, I don't want any parasites to build resistance to the medication so I treat it fully if it seems like nothing is wrong after a few days.

My full 6 weeks QT incorporates internal cleaning for all fishes. This would include Prazi, Metro, and Lemavisole. Kanamycin is my weapon of choice for antibiotics. Before all of this, most fishes will be given a PP bath.

[MCHRKiller]

Taurus is correct, PraziPro is a very effective measure in QT against internal parasites...I used it religiously when I worked in a LFS during college. IME 8 out of 10 fish that a LFS receives from farms...have internal parasites. Many are also damn near to the point of being disease resistant due to the fact most farms keep fish on a constant state of meds. PraziPro however has never let me down. Metro is another great drug if you are dealing with hexamita...good safeguard for any cichlids you get in as well.

I had a recent bout of hexamita..due to not properly medicating in QT. Nearly lost my wild Orbicularis due to slacking off. I do however think that in your case right now buy fish for a while is a bad idea. Give it a few weeks and hell Id go so far as to say buy some off the net as it seems your resource for livestock does not take any measures to prevent infestation.

[Brhino]

So you're pretty confident in saying that parasites are the issue? What about for the corys that seemingly drop dead without warning?

[Lady Hobbs]

I'd say do 3 weeks of treatment with the standard dosage.

For my own clarification, you are saying to dose once a week, and repeat the dosage after each water change for 3 weeks total, right?

It's time for another treatment on my parrots so will follow that route if so.

Thank you.

[Lady Hobbs]

So you're pretty confident in saying that parasites are the issue? What about for the corys that seemingly drop dead without warning?

Confident the med will work if it's paradisaical.

[Brhino]

Confident the med will work if it's paradisaical.

well I get that, but with MCHRKiller saying my source doesn't take any precautions regarding parasites, I was wondering if she was more confident in the parasite diagnosis than we've been so far.

[Spardas]

Yes, only dose again if you are changing water with the same percentage as the amount of water taken out. Prazi doesn't degrade in water like other medication so once a week would be fine.

As for your other question. I'm pretty sure that you'll rarely see any pet store go through intensive QT procedures to clean out their fishes. I'm sure that these fishes are hosting all sorts of parasites and bacteria and they're only being kept under marginal control by the immune system.

Although I don't advocate using medication without knowing what the issue is; I do advocate using medication during QT once the fishes are transferred from one source to another in order to clean out the fishes. A thorough application of medication that would effectively kill and eradicate parasites and bacteria without letting it build any resistance to the medication is my aim for each fish that I receive.

My new Flowerhorn is undergoing treatment of Metro & Prazi as we speak now. It was given a PP bath right after I received it. I take no chances. The Red Dragon I got last month has already received the PP treatment, the metro/prazi & lemavisole cleaning, and kanamycin secondary prevention already. Now I'm using the last 2 weeks to observe. PP is deadly and I wouldn't do it for smaller or much more sensitive fishes. QT is especially crucial for me when it comes to ordering from different farms in different countries. Who knows what kind of pathogen each fishes are immune to and not. That's why I can't take risks at all.

[MCHRKiller]

I do agree with the diagnosis of some sort of parasite, and I personally think that your shop doesnt do preventative measures. If they did prevention and you did prevention...you would have no issues.

I am in agreement with Spardas, fish can look totally 100% fine but 2 weeks later come down with all sorts of things IF a preventative treatment isnt made in new fish. This is especially true in wild caught fish or fish that come from a large fish farm. Most of the commonly kept species unfortunately come from farms. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, treat them in QT. Here is my QT treatment for new fish:
1st day-50% WC add new fish and seeded filter cartridge(pulled from the 150 usually). Dose Prazi at full strength and Metro and 1/2 strength
3rd-4th Day-50% WC 1/4 dose of Prazi, 1/4 Dose of Metro
7th Day-50% WC...no new medications
10th Day-50%WC...no new medications
12-13th Day-50%WC...no new medications, add carbon to suck up any tace meds

By now the fish should not have meds in their water due to the water changes and addition of carbon, I leave them an additional 2-3 days for observation and put them in the main tank. I also tend to feed the fish garlic soaked and selcon soaked food, the extra nutritional boost helps them knock out anything that could be ailing them as well.

[mermaidwannabe]

Jenn, this is valuable information for ALL of us! Thanks for sharing these specifics.

-- mermaid

[Brhino]

I've been quarantining new fishes for a while now, but for me QT has just been "keep the new fish in a new tank and watch them, and see if they come down with anything". I see both of you take a more active approach to QT. What's the full name of "metro"? who makes it?

[Taurus]

Indeed. Thank you Jenn and Spardas. :ssmile:

[Spardas]

It's metronidazole. You can get it stand alone or in combo with other medication.

I have it by itself and with General Cure (Metro and Prazi combined).

[Strider199]

Wow Brhino I feel for you. Losing fish every other day or week, getting new stock and losing a few, different species, from different water levels was what I was up against since I moved my stock and filters and plants from my 29 gallon to my 55 gallon (bought new). There was no real obvious sign of anything wrong until the individual started losing balance (going sideways or upsidedown) or found against the filter intake. My water parameters were always fantastic and I was going nuts. I finally decided to treat the community tank with the safest two meds. I could find on the net, Pimafix and Melafix and fed by fish Anti-Bacteria food from Jungle. Some of my fish which I lost had some signs their fins weren't 100%. I started this treatment the third week of March and I haven't had a casualty since. I bought new stock from the same lfs as I've always used and haven't lost a single one including Cardinal tetras which I was losing after 12 to 36 hours before.

I feel for you Brhino. I hope you get to the bottom of this. Every day I get home I count my stock and give a little fist pump. I dont have to edit my sig.

[MCHRKiller]

This may be a bit of a brash course of treatment, but I would honestly break down and bleach your display tank if you have not done so already just as a precaution. If you have any remaining fish Id move them to QT and treat them. Cycle the tank again and start stocking from there.

[Spardas]

You read my mind, Jenn. I was thinking the same but not sure if he wanted to go through all of that after setting it up all this time. I tried recommending that before but not many would follow through especially for a main display tank. Even I have a hard time sometimes convincing myself to break everything down but I need to do what's best.

It's your call Brhino, but I second that notion too. Reason is simple, you start a fresh without any pathogens. All incoming fishes will be under proper QT procedures from now on. This way, it'll be easier to actually target what is the problem and why your fish die if they do die. To add to Jenn's QT procedure, I mix livestock from the main tank in with the QT after all of the treatment just to see if anything will develop.

This only happened once to me but it was still enough to make me do it each time. I received a wild shipment of angels and they were absolutely healthy and stunning after the final treatment. I move to the final phase with combining stock in the QT tank (I took 1 least attractive discus and another koi angel and placed it in the same tank) and within a few days, the fishes from the main tank became lethargic, had labored breathing, and lost their colors. Whatever was in those wild angels weren't completely wiped out yet. The discus and angel died by day 4 by being in the same tank as those angels. Whatever it was that killed them killed them fast and furiously. It's definitely not the work of worms because worms simply won't kill that fast.

I had to go a separate route and feed medicated food as well as taking them out and squirting medication with a syringe into their mouth. After another 2 weeks of treatment, I finally crossed my fingers and put in another discus in the tank and 3 weeks later; everyone went into the main tank. In total, it was about 10 weeks worth of QT, lol.

This hobby get expensive fast when you get exotic fishes and if you don't follow good QT procedures; you'll be shooting yourself in the foot in the long run.

[Brhino]

ugh... I have plenty of remaining fish... 19 of them, a couple hundred shrimp, snails, and far too many plants to fit into available QT space. That would be a nightmare. I feel like my losses would be considerable if I broke down a 75g tank into a 10g tank for several weeks while I treated all fish and re-cycled the main tank.

What is the theory in place that dictates bleaching the tank? Is it supposed that there is something in the tank (not in the fish) that cannot be cured without a complete bleaching?

[MCHRKiller]

Its an extra step in precaution. treating the fish normally does away with any issues. But treating the fish and removing any sort of pathogen from the tank via a mild bleach solution pretty much makes it impossible for something to rear its ugly head unless something is introduced again. Peace of mind is probably the biggest reason behind it.

[Spardas]

Now, as you many know, most of the fish parasites that we encounter regularly are protozoans and generally speaking; they don't require an intermediate host to reproduce.

This would mean that they can live in the bottom of the tank with all the accumulation of debris and leftover and fish waste. They will survive. If in the fish farms (or any source of fish supplies for that matter) didn't treat them properly or used medicine incorrectly; these parasites might not die and build resistance to medication.

So, the answer would be yes, they can still live in the aquarium without a host. Not all of them will; but there are enough to be of concern to you. All it takes is one to survive and they can multiply again.

[Brhino]

But any free parasites should be killed by the same medication treating the parasites in the fish, right? Assuming it works. If it doesn't work, then it'll still be in the fish regardless of what I do with the tank.

[Spardas]

Right, and the problem is; sometimes the medication can't go through all that layers of substrate. Even if it did, the concentration won't be strong enough to kill it or kill all of them. That's one of the reasons why I prefer bare bottom tanks when I can and opt out for rock works or other arrangement because I want to be able to get to every area in the tank.

You treat for 3 weeks and it looks fine and the fish may recover but the parasite might still be there in the substrate. The fish is free from parasite but then once the immune system is compromised; the parasite will take that chance to infect the fish again.

Just like my experience with the wild angels. I thought I did a thorough enough job for 4 weeks but whatever the parasite was; it still evaded the repeated treatments and lived. I had to physically jam a syringe down the fish's mouth and did that for 2 weeks to get rid of whatever parasite it was. This was in a barebottom QT tank as well.

You know, this might be a good reason to start another big tank, lol.

[Brhino]

All right, I've had some time to think.

first off, parasites make more sense the more I think about it. We've ruled out poor water quality due to the thriving shrimp population. We've ruled out disease due to the lack of major outbreak or recognizable symptoms. We've ruled out poor stock (as a standalone reason) due to the sheer number of fish involved. So we're left with parasites. The shrimp are unaffected because it's a fish parasite, not a shrimp parasite. The parasites are present in all or most of the fish, but most of the fish live for quite a while because when they're strong enough the parasites don't bother them too much. However, when a secondary issue is present (weak stock, stress, etc) then the parasites win the battle and the fish dies. Does that all sound right?

So we're not 100% sure its parasites but it makes the most sense. We're considering two treatment options:

Treat in-tank with Prazipro
Advantages: cheap, easy, minimal negative effects on fish
Disadvantages: may not completely work
Nuke the tank
Advantages: highest chance of total parasite elimination
Disadvantages: lots of work, additional costs, extra stress, likely partial flora and fauna losses


It seems to be it makes sense to try out the easier, more low-key option, and evaluate the results of that before trying the nuclear option if needed. I figure one of three things can happen:


Deaths continue unabated
Conclusion: Problem is not parasites (or at least not parasites that can be treated with Prazipro)
Followup: re-evaluate evidence, devise new plan
Deaths decrease short-term, but then resume long term
Conclusion: parasite diagnosis correct, Prazipro mostly successful but parasites return
Followup: nuke the tank
Deaths decrease permanently
Conclusion: parasite diagnosis correct, Prazipro successful
Followup: implement improved quarantine plan, continue to monitor tank


What do you think? Is this a logical plan?

[MCHRKiller]

For your amount of QT space and fish left...it is about your only option unless of course you wanted to invest in a larger QT tank. I would treat the tank with Prazi...and give it atleast 6-8 weeks before thinking about buying more fish. See how things go if no deaths or random occurances happen...I would say your problem is oK. Proceede to buy new fish and QT them with treatment. See how it goes.

[Brhino]

I've got some platies in QT now that I got a few days ago when the plan was "try some different fish from a different source". Those will be added to the 75g tank after they're done with QT. After that I'll lock it down for a while and see how things go.

I'll keep everyone updated...

[MCHRKiller]

I would personally keep those fish in QT for the 6-8 weeks...that way your 75G can be locked down for an observation period and you will know if you wiped out anything and nothing else was introduced.

[Brhino]

could you folks clarify the Prazipro instructions a bit more?

Spardas said:


only dose again if you are changing water with the same percentage as the amount of water taken out. Prazi doesn't degrade in water like other medication so once a week would be fine.

But the bottle says:


A single treatment lasting 5-7 days is normally sufficient. Retreat as necessary, but no more than once every 3 to 5 days.

The bottle doesn't mention anything about water changes during treatment, and not everyone does them. It doesn't say anything about retreating at a lower dose, either. So, if I'm treating for three weeks, starting with a full dose on day one, and I'm changing 50% of the tank water on days 3, 10, and 17, when should I do followup doses, and what amount should I dose for?

[Spardas]

Day 1 - Full dose

Day 3 - 50% water change (replace back same percentage of Prazi)

Day 10 - 70% water change (full dose) vacuum the substrate thoroughly during water change

Day 17 - 70% water change (full dose) vacuum the substrate thoroughly during water change

I'd also look into metro as well. I find the metronidazole & praziquantel combo to work well together.

[Brhino]

Day 6 of prazi-pro treatment. I found a zebra danio dead today. It was the one labeled "minor irregular" on page 4. I don't know that he was eating much.

My interpretation of this is that he was already heavily weakened by the presumed parasites, too much so to be cured in time after just a few days of treatment. As such I'm not making an assumption about the effectiveness of the prazi-pro treatment based on this death.

Do you folks agree?

[Lady Hobbs]

Worry, Worry. This medication is labeled as "extremely" safe and your danio was already ill.

I dosed a tank full of shrimp this week and everyone is just fine.

[Brhino]

Worry, Worry. This medication is labeled as "extremely" safe and your danio was already ill.

I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand what you're saying here. My thought is that the medication was not enough to save an already sick fish in time. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

[Lady Hobbs]

I agree with you. He was already ill and of course we don't even know if parasites is even the problem to start with. We're more or less just hoping something will help and you can snag onto the problem and stop losing your fish. Either way, fish should be treated for parasites, just incase, but I just hope this isn't bacterial, velvet or something else that hasn't been yet addressed. Gotta start somewhere tho.

Which is why Spardas also suggested Metro. Somethings gotta work.

[MCHRKiller]

Personally, if you dont get this thing knocked out in a week or two longer, Id contemplate euthanizing the remainders. Then bleaching the tank and starting fresh. Some parasites/bacteria are just darn near medication resistant due to most farms and LFS keeping fish in a constant state of meds.

[Brhino]

Personally, if you dont get this thing knocked out in a week or two longer, Id contemplate euthanizing the remainders.

you're suggesting euthanizing 18 fish, the majority of which do not show any signs of illness?

[MCHRKiller]

Only if your random sporatic deaths dont stop. It is better to euth a few fish than to go through a constant ring of die offs for who knows how long till it gets cleared up. As I said...only if in a couple of weeks your die offs and sickly fish occurances do not stop :11:

[Brhino]

well, I guess I'm just opposed to that idea. I will certainly stop adding fish to the tank until the deaths stop, but I'm not going to euthanisize healthy fish... even if it means running a 75g tank with nothing but a bristlenose and some shrimp in it. Just doesn't seem right to kill off fish just so I can get other fish.

Hopefully it won't come to that, anyhow. I found out that the jungle labs medicated anti-parasite food has metro in it, so I'm going to go back to feeding that as directed along with adding prazi-pro to the water per Spardas' dosing instructions.

[Cermet]

Have you considered moving the fish to a temp isolation tank, getting rid of the substrate, cleaning the plants in a weak chlorine based solution, disinfecting the tank, and putting the fish in back in after treating in the isolation/hospital tank (all) for parasites? That is, if you keep losing fish after all these attempts.

[Brhino]

yeah, Spardas suggested it. I figure I'll lose fish, plants, and inverts that way, so it's not my first choice but it is an option in play.

[Lady Hobbs]

You also need to remove fish the minute you see it's not acting right. Don't leave it in the tank for days and days giving it time to infect others or die on the bottom of the tank and allowing others to eat at it.

I netted out two neons yesterday and trashed them. They were very much alive but they were not acting right and that's enough for me. I have 40 other fish in the tank to protect.

[Roscoe47]

I would have to say that if having carried out regular water changes,
and your filtration system is A OK, that if your water is testing out OK, that your source of fish is suspect!

I would ask around your area and other fish keepers, where they obtain their fish, as it seems that as you're losing fish at regular intervals you may, as previously suggested have bought weak and feeble fish.

I recommend that you get an independent water test, at a reputable aquatic centre,(most good shops will test a sample of your tank water for free).

[Lady Hobbs]

If a store sells nothing but sick fish, they wouldn't stay in business long. I have a feeling he probably got some ill fish and whatever they had spread to all the others tho.