Trying to get nitrates down, huge fight followed 40%wc

[openbook]

I just did a 40% water change on my 120 with my new python kit. I was cleaning a canister filter and went back into the room for something and Jack Dempsey and Green Terror were in a lip lock battle. This was the worst fight I've seen. It went on for a few more minutes. After I turned the tank light on and was watching they stopped and GT retreated. GT looked pretty banged up at first but later that night only looked like some of his scales were scraped. Jack just had scrapes on his mouth.

Jack was in a bad mood, he would chase anyone that got too close to him, then he just sulked under a rock like he usually does. He is a weird fish, he will only eat NLS food. For a month he wouldn't come out and eat because the store was out of NLS and all I could get was Hikari. He tried the Hikari at first and just spit it out. I thought he was sick until I got NLS again.

I think the fish were stressed out by the water change and that caused the fight. I do weekly changes of about 20 gallons without any problems, but have found the nitrates are too high. Much higher than my other tanks.

I have a master test kit that came with everything but a nitrate test? I never find any nitrites or ammonia so I didn't think nitrate was a big deal. I've been devoted to weekly water changes but I was curious to see what the nitrates were at. So I bought some test strips, I know they suck but I figured I would use them up in a month until I knew what kind of maintenance I needed to do.

Nitrates were at 80ppm in the 120 a week ago. I did a 25% water change and tested an hour later, they were about 70ppm. Yesterday I did the 40% change and nitrates later were around 40-50ppm (hard to tell on those test strips). I would like to get it down to 20, like my other tanks after water changes. Some might think that is even too high, but I don't know how there can be none unless you change all the water.

I have plenty of filtration. 2 Emperor 400 HOB and 1 magnum pro 350 canister with bio wheels. I also have undergravel plates with 2 powerheads. With a thick substrate bed of 4-5 inches, some spots 6, it gets moved around a little. It is a mix of pea gravel and crushed coral. My old jag would dig down all the way to the plates!

I know undergravel filters have fallen out of favor so I did not use them when I set up my 72 tank. My observation is that the gravel seems cleaner with them, maybe 10% cleaner and I don't get any algae. On the 72 I get algae growth and I'm vaccuming up more clouds of dirt. I figure the algae can help with biological filtration, I keep the front and sides of the tank clean.
I think they use undergravel filters at the aquarium store since all the tanks have riser tubes with bubblers powering them.

Weekly maintenance besides the water changes. I take out the filters from the HOB's and rinse them out in tank water. 2 of them I cut out a rite size filter pad and 2 were the ones with built in carbon. I find that the cut out filter pad works better because I can more efficiently clean them by dunking and squeezing the dirt out of them. I decided to replace the 2 with built in carbon since I can't clean them as well. They get fairly clean looking but still dingy. Sure enough after running tap water on them it washed out a ton more dirt, and they look clean again. I saved them for whatever reason.

The magnum canister I clean every 5-6 weeks usually the room will start to smell like the aquarium store and I know it's time to clean. I use a 1/4 cup kent marine reef carbon to keep things fresh. It's the only one I've found that says 1/4 cup treats up to 100 gallons. They look like big pellets. I have some of the premium activated carbon that looks like little chips. I use some of that just to use it up. It doesn't say how much of that to use so I wonder how efficient it is. The other half of the canister I fill up with filter floss. I'm thinking maybe I should use ammo chips in the other half, or something that's supposed to remove nitrates but I don't know the efficiacy of such products.

My whole problem might be that the tank is overstocked. So I might have to lower stock if I can't get things under control. It's still early spring here so I would wait until it warms up more before returning fish.

The stock list in the 120 gallon tank is-
1 Jack Dempsey 6"
1 Green Terror 7"
1 Nicuragua 6"
1 Tilapia 8"
1 Trinidad Pleco 5"
2 Bala sharks 1-5" 1-6"

The only fish I would consider bringing back are the Tilapia and Bala's even though I really like them.

Thanks for having the patience to read this, if you have any suggestions fire away!:14:

[sphingo]

The only way Nitrates are removed are by water changes, plants, and algae. Microbes in the biofilter stop processing nitrogen at nitrates then plants and algae take over using them in nature.

[openbook]

What about this stuff? De-nitrate
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

I'm not trying to get out of doing water changes. Just wondering if it helps.

[sphingo]

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
here is the link to the actual seachem description of the product. I had never heard of it and from the sound of it it just provides surface for denitrifying bacteria. These bacteria however have to live in oxygen free environments which you really don't have many oxygen free areas in a filter so my gut says it won't do much. I would just increase the amount of water you change since I don't think it would be very affective since it is basically just another biofilter which will mainly contain the bacteria that end up producing nitrate as there final product. Hope this makes since.

[openbook]

Yeah that looks like it wouldn't work. The product I meant was an ion exchange resin.
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
They don't say how it works but a quick google search- [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
I don't get exactly how it would work but the resin has an affinity for the nitrate ion. So it traps nitrate like a magnet until it's full. Then you recharge the resin by soaking in salt water and it exchanges the salt ion with the nitrate ion and can be used again for nitrate. Weird.:shrug:

[Taurus]

This was a bit of a long and confusing post..lol..for me anyway.

But the solution to lowering your nitrates in addition to doing water changes is get rid of the UGF. All the crap from left over food, fish poop, other debris gets drawn down into the gravel due to suction from the Powerheads and gravity. Eventually it ends up under the UGF where it decomposes and gets turned into nitrates. In order for UGF to be effective, the space between the plates and the bottom of your tank glass need to be kept clean and that's very difficult to do with UGFs. Hence the UGF become nitrate factories.

Do the best you can do clean under the plates with a suction tube, then remove the UGFs. Take a gravel vaccum and work it deep down into your gravel and vaccum until no more debris comes up through the vacuum. You may need to do this serval times in order to get all that gravel clean. At the same time you can do water changes. Use a water conditioner like Prime that will neutralize free ammonia and either treat the new water first or pour the appropriate amount of water conditoner into the tank before adding new water. As I said, you probably won't be able to get all the gravel clean at once, but over time you can. This should lower your nitrates. I would clean1/2 of the tank gravel on say a Wednesday and the other half on a Saturday along with 30 - 50% water changes to keep your nitrates low.

Don't over feed your fish as that can lead to high nitrates levels.


Nitrates were at 80ppm in the 120 a week ago. I did a 25% water change and tested an hour later, they were about 70ppm. Yesterday I did the 40% change and nitrates later were around 40-50ppm (hard to tell on those test strips). I would like to get it down to 20, like my other tanks after water changes. Some might think that is even too high, but I don't know how there can be none unless you change all the water.

I have plenty of filtration. 2 Emperor 400 HOB and 1 magnum pro 350 canister with bio wheels. I also have undergravel plates with 2 powerheads. With a thick substrate bed of 4-5 inches, some spots 6, it gets moved around a little. It is a mix of pea gravel and crushed coral. My old jag would dig down all the way to the plates!

[Taurus]

The part of your post makes no sense at all. Removing the UGF plates and keeping your substrate clean with a gravel vacuum and water changes significantly lower excess nutrients so you shouldn't get as much algae growth. Sorry, under gravel plates are the problem unless you're keeping the space between the plate and the tank bottom glass clean. :ssmile:

I know undergravel filters have fallen out of favor so I did not use them when I set up my 72 tank. My observation is that the gravel seems cleaner with them, maybe 10% cleaner and I don't get any algae. On the 72 I get algae growth and I'm vaccuming up more clouds of dirt. I figure the algae can help with biological filtration, I keep the front and sides of the tank clean.

[Lab_Rat]

You need to be doing larger, more frequent water changes to get the nitrates down, along with thorough gravel vaccing. Also, clean out the filters if they're junky. As far as a large WC causing a fight, maybe, maybe not. It's probably more that the fish are aggressive fish that are likely to fight. They are cichlids and cichlids are prone to fighting. I would not be limiting a WC because a fight happened to occur after one. My CA/SA cichlid tank gets 80% wc either weekly or twice a week, depending on my time.

[Taurus]

Do not use ammo chips as chemical filter media. Ammo chips are made out of zeolite. Zeolite absorbs ammonia from the water column. It you have a healthy biofilter, you shouldn't need the ammo chips and the chips are taking away the very food that keep your biofilter a live and working....ammonia.
IMHO, you can't have a healthy biofilter or healthy tank if you're using ammo chips. Ammo chips will eventualy fall apart and when they do they will release free ammonia back into the water. Not good at all.

The most effective way to remove nitrates is through gravel vacs and water changes. You may want to consider using Seachem's Purigen as the chemical filter media. Purigen will remove organic forms of nitrogen from the water column...such as ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. Purigen can be recharged and reused when it turns brown. When Purigen turn brown, it mean that it cannot absorb any more pollutants and need to be replaced or recharged.

IMHO, using activated carbon as the chemical filter media is a waste of money because it will not remove ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates. Activated carbon is usefull if you're trying to remove medications from the water column, that's it. Purigen or Boyd's Chemipure is a much better chemical filter media and I favor Purigen because you can recharge it.

And yes, that's a lot of fish for a 120 gallon tank. Too many fish.

HTH :ssmile:



The magnum canister I clean every 5-6 weeks usually the room will start to smell like the aquarium store and I know it's time to clean. I use a 1/4 cup kent marine reef carbon to keep things fresh. It's the only one I've found that says 1/4 cup treats up to 100 gallons. They look like big pellets. I have some of the premium activated carbon that looks like little chips. I use some of that just to use it up. It doesn't say how much of that to use so I wonder how efficient it is. The other half of the canister I fill up with filter floss. I'm thinking maybe I should use ammo chips in the other half, or something that's supposed to remove nitrates but I don't know the efficiacy of such products.

My whole problem might be that the tank is overstocked. So I might have to lower stock if I can't get things under control. It's still early spring here so I would wait until it warms up more before returning fish.

The stock list in the 120 gallon tank is-
1 Jack Dempsey 6"
1 Green Terror 7"
1 Nicuragua 6"
1 Tilapia 8"
1 Trinidad Pleco 5"
2 Bala sharks 1-5" 1-6"

The only fish I would consider bringing back are the Tilapia and Bala's even though I really like them.

Thanks for having the patience to read this, if you have any suggestions fire away!:14:

[openbook]

The part of your post makes no sense at all. Removing the UGF plates and keeping your substrate clean with a gravel vacuum and water changes significantly lower excess nutrients so you shouldn't get as much algae growth. Sorry, under gravel plates are the problem unless you're keeping the space between the plate and the tank bottom glass clean. :ssmile:

Sorry, to clear things up I meant the 120 has the under gravel and the 72 does not. The 120 gets no algae. I guess I wrote too much and messed up the sentence.

I have read about cleaning under the UGF and tried once. There was no debris under it. I ran the hose at least a foot in and nothing. It's possible there could be dirt under it somewhere. The top of the stand has boards covering it so I cannot look at the bottom of the tank. On my 55 I have a UGF and have looked at the bottom and it is mostly clean with only 1-2 dirty spots.

The carbon is just to keep things smelling fresh, no other purpose really.

If all else fails I might get rid of the undergravel, it would not be pretty though. Since it's 4 plates I would probably do 1 a week so as not to disrupt the whole tank.

[Taurus]

No problem. The only way I can explain the difference between your 120 and your 72 is that the nutrients that algae need to grow are more dilute due to the larger volume of water. But still, the nitrates are way to high in the 120. If it was my tank (which it is not) I'd get rid of the UGF in a hurry and see if it makes a difference in nitrate production. Oh right, IMHO the 120 is way overstocked.

Sounds like your maintenance practice is good, but not enough to keep nitrates low. Consider using Purigen, or thinning the herd, or both.

HTH :ssmile:

Sorry, to clear things up I meant the 120 has the under gravel and the 72 does not. The 120 gets no algae. I guess I wrote too much and messed up the sentence.

I've always vaccumed the gravel in thirds getting all debris out once a week.

[Lady Hobbs]

Last week when you had 80 nitrates, you did a 25% water change which only changed the nitrates to 70. So they then started out with another week of nitrates left at that level? You should have changed 50-75% of the water and the next day did it again until those nitrates were down to under 20.

Clean more, feed less and do more water changes.

[Cermet]

It is possible to run a UGF and canister filter in the tank - I use a UGF but not as a bio-filter. I use reverse flow power heads (with sponge filters) which drive water from the tank down into the UG plate and this water then flows up through my gravel layer, then through my sand layer achieving two primary goals - lots of extra oxygen to the sand and no debris diffusing down into the sand (solid fish waste, bits of food) get down into the sand. Another plus is that the plants' easily get nutrients to their roots and this helps to keep fish liquid waste from accumulating in those layers, as well.

To help with phosphates and add extra oxygen, I use a HOB with spray bar bio-wheel feeds (dual.) The cartridge carriers hold my phosphate removal chemicals. Of course my canister filter performs most my bio-filtering (I loaded all three trays with ceramic bio-noodles.)

My main interest in this is that I simply have too heavy of a planted tank to vacuum stir the sand. Also, I wanted to supply nutrients to the roots via my selected liquid fertilizer additions rather than a shotgun general liquid ferts to avoid extra phosphates and unneeded minerals/nitrates to help prevent/reduce algae. :hmm3grin2orange:

[Lady Hobbs]

openbook, I'm with Taurus on the confusing part. :ssuprised:

You address you have a nitrate problem but the first 3 paragraphs are compatibility issues and then you talk about feeding problems. It was simply an overload of information from filters, to sand depth, to the kind of gravel, ............confusing.

With two big tanks like that, you need a good liquid testing kit and dump the paper strips.

[openbook]

Sorry, I was trying to be thorough with details. I guess I got overwhelmed.

[Taurus]

LOL...my friend, you're making fish keeping way more complicated that it needs to be. Please don't take offense because none was intended.

This is what I would do if this were my tank.

1. Get rid of the UGF

2. Feed your plants using root tabs or liquid ferts.

3. Vaccum the sand, gravel, whatever as best you can. It's important to stir up sand a bit so that pockets of gas don't get trapped in it.

4. Use the canister filter as you are. Wait, use one tray for Purigen as a chemical filter media.

5. Use the HOBs as you are.

6. Perform larger water changes more frequently to help control nitrates.

7. Thin the herd. I'm pretty sure you have to much bioload and that could be contributing to the high nitrate levels.

[openbook]

No offense taken, just embarrased at my confusing rant. I'm glad I recently bought a python water changer. It should be no problem to do large water changes now.

[Lady Hobbs]

There ya go! Now you can do large water changes with less effort than you used to do small ones. Great little gaget.