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salman
07-09-2007, 06:24 PM
Lately, i have noticed that my discus fish are turning black. It's like someone painted them and the paint is fading away. I don't know if its black or really dark gray. Its only on the light fish. The yellow and red and orange discus are the only ones who have it on them. Its mostly on the upper body. I have looked online for this problem but i keep finding different answers. I read that sometimes this is caused from the lightning. But, i don't have the lights turned on for more then 12 hours, and the light is not strong, its pink. I went to the fish store today to see if they had any good looking discus, and i saw a discus there that had the same problem i had, I asked the man working there and he said if i change the water it will change. But he looked like he didnt know what he was talking about. So, i asked another person, and he said that this is the discus' normal color. But when i bought mine they didn't have the black on them.

Any help would be great.

tropfish
07-09-2007, 06:37 PM
Sounds like the discus were dyed. I've never heard of them doing it to discus because they are natuarally colorful. I don't know much about them so wait for others opinions

salman
07-09-2007, 06:41 PM
no i dont think anyone did that because they only turned black a week after i put them in the fish tank i think. Only the light discus.

tropfish
07-09-2007, 06:48 PM
Then i turn up blank. But dyes do come out fairly quicky, especially if they were in the dealer tank for a while. And the light colors like the brilliant red and yellows and such are usually dyes for some fish

salman
07-09-2007, 07:03 PM
Maybe thats the case, thanks alot for trying to help :)

Anyone else know anything about discus?

Fishguy2727
07-09-2007, 08:01 PM
They aren't dyed. One possibility is hormones, they will increase coloration and can quickly fade (fade faster than dyes).

Usually it is a sign of stress. Stress can be caused by a lot of things.
What size tank is it?
What filtration?
What water change schedule?
What other fish? How many discus?
Any aggression between discus?
What is the pH?
What are you feeding?

RobbieG
07-09-2007, 08:27 PM
Sounds like the discus were dyed. I've never heard of them doing it to discus because they are natuarally colorful. I don't know much about them so wait for others opinions

Its usually light colored or albino fish that get dyed - dye will show up vividly on very light colors but not dark ones

salman
07-09-2007, 08:34 PM
But when i got it from the shop it they had nothing on them, (i think) but then everyday i check i find more on the fish.

I took some pictures, but how can i upload them here?

tropfish
07-09-2007, 08:41 PM
upload them to an online site like photobucket. then use the image button which is the little mountian pic in the post toolbar and put the vieweer URl or share url or whatever its called in that

salman
07-09-2007, 09:18 PM
http://img30.picoodle.com/img/img30/9/7/9/t_2222DSC0010m_9a4728c.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img30&img=/9/7/9/f_2222DSC0010m_9a4728c.jpg)

http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/7/9/t_2222DSC0010m_35cffb2.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img39&img=/9/7/9/f_2222DSC0010m_35cffb2.jpg)


http://img37.picoodle.com/img/img37/9/7/9/t_3333DSC0010m_3e1b6f0.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img37&img=/9/7/9/f_3333DSC0010m_3e1b6f0.jpg)



click on the image so u can see it bigger.

But, it doesnt really show so good. When u see it in your eyes it looks darker and alot more.

RobbieG
07-09-2007, 09:21 PM
Here is a link to a good discus article

http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=669&cid=3780&search=

salman
07-09-2007, 09:35 PM
i read it,

Usually wild discus come in with a variety of parasites. These may include gill and/or body flukes, intestinal worms and various protozoa, including Hexamita and/or Spironucleus. Unhappy discus are obvious: often they are dark or even black or have milky white "slime" on their bodies, they refuse to feed, they void white stringy feces, exhibit obvious "worms" protruding from the anus, and they "breathe" rapidly with widely opened gill covers. (Superficial wounds or shredded or truncated fins are not really a serious problem and usually correct themselves with improved water quality.)


This is the closest thing i found to the thing my fish have. But, the only symptom my fish have in common is the black spots or the dark spots. They all eat or the ones that have black spots because i was looking at them carefully. They look normal to me, but they have like black faded paint on them. But it is not paint because its getting more daily but i dont think its affecting them.



Also, one of the fish that is "infected" is aggressive, it is the 3rd biggest fish in the aquarium, it only picks on the 2 fish that are bigger, i think they are deciding whos king or queen of the aquarium.

RobbieG
07-09-2007, 09:49 PM
A little further down it talks about different environmental factors that could be causing it

salman
07-09-2007, 10:02 PM
If your once-healthy discus begin to darken, lose interest in food and begin breathing in a rapidly labored manner, they are obviously telling you that something is wrong. Have you kept up with those water changes and changed the filter media (or rinsed out your sponge filters)? Is the peat exhausted and in need of replacement? Have you added a nasty fish, or has one become super-dominant at the expense of the others? As Schulze (1988) has said, often the problem is simply environmental and not the result of some infectious agent, and can be corrected simply and without medication.



I am pretty sure it is not environmental. The pH is perfect, hardness is soft. I check the water daily. The temp is at 27 degrees. I change 15% of the water almost everyday. I have 2 filters, one outside and one inside. But the thing i dont get, its only on the light colored discus, and its not on all of them. The dark ones look perfect and i even took a closer look to see if the black was hard to see on the darker ones but nothing.

RobbieG
07-09-2007, 10:48 PM
The stress may be being caused by the fish that is attempting to assert his domininance - he's stressed from chasing the others and they are stressed from being chased.

If you are positive there is no infection or parasites and your water is good - that seems to be what is left.

Fishguy could be right too - I'd bet a million bucks he knows more about discus than I do

salman
07-09-2007, 11:45 PM
Usually it is a sign of stress. Stress can be caused by a lot of things.
What size tank is it? 750 Liters
What filtration? I have no idea, but i have 2 filters
What water change schedule? Almost everyday 10-15%
What other fish? How many discus? Only discus, 12 of them. 1 Pleco. 2 big, 2 med, 8 small.
Any aggression between discus? only the 2 big ones, one of them has the black things all over their body, and the second has a little. Sometimes some small ones, but the small ones look like they are playing.
What is the pH? 5.0, sometimes gets to 6
What are you feeding? Different kinds of food. Flakes, Etc.


Sometimes i see the pleco sucking some of the discus, but i think its cleaning it or something. Should i take it out?

salman
07-10-2007, 12:08 AM
fishguy, i was looking at your pictures on photobucket and on image IMGP1236.jpg one of ur fish has the same problem as some of my fish. What is that black from? Will it go away or is it permanent?

RobbieG
07-10-2007, 12:59 AM
Usually it is a sign of stress. Stress can be caused by a lot of things.
What size tank is it? 750 Liters
What filtration? I have no idea, but i have 2 filters
What water change schedule? Almost everyday 10-15%
What other fish? How many discus? Only discus, 12 of them. 1 Pleco. 2 big, 2 med, 8 small.
Any aggression between discus? only the 2 big ones, one of them has the black things all over their body, and the second has a little. Sometimes some small ones, but the small ones look like they are playing.
What is the pH? 5.0, sometimes gets to 6
What are you feeding? Different kinds of food. Flakes, Etc.


Sometimes i see the pleco sucking some of the discus, but i think its cleaning it or something. Should i take it out?

It may be a good idea to move the pleco to another tank - he may be removing the fishes slime coat

genitor
07-10-2007, 01:15 AM
Maybe the pleco is causing the stress by sucking onto the discus.

salman
07-10-2007, 01:17 PM
I'll remove it right now.. Wish me luck, the last time i tried i was unlucky. Plecos are soo fast!

RobbieG
07-10-2007, 01:23 PM
Good luck - I hope it helps your fish!

Lady Hobbs
07-10-2007, 01:23 PM
I've read that pleco's should not be with discus for this reason. They remove the slime coat that the discus needs. Bristlenose would be the best one to use in discus tanks.

salman
07-10-2007, 01:25 PM
Thanks robbie..


Lady hobbs thanks for the Bristlenose. I'll try to go to the store today and get one. :)

salman
07-10-2007, 01:26 PM
It they are turning black from the stress? Do you think its permanent? Because i would hate to have some beautiful fish black/grey.

RobbieG
07-10-2007, 01:45 PM
Their color should come back when the stressor is removed

salman
07-10-2007, 01:49 PM
I just removed the pleco. I'm also gunna go buy some new food that will help their coloring.

RobbieG
07-10-2007, 01:50 PM
Good luck!

Fishguy2727
07-10-2007, 02:39 PM
What kind of pleco?
Are they all the same kind?

Some types are fine, but many sucker fish will suck on discus. I have had absolutely no problems with my bristlenose with my discus, and was told on a discus forum that a gold nugget would not be mess with discus. I am not sure if any other plecos would be safe or not.

What pH does your tapwater naturally hold at?
Do you know what those filters are rated for?
Are the filters HOB, canister, trickle, what?
How long has the tank been setup?

That discus in my pic you are talking about is a pigeon blood, they naturally have black speckling.

The best food for them is New Life Spectrum. That is the only thing mine get, it is actually the only thing any of my fish and my axolotls get. It improves color, growth, health, breeding, everything. It is the best thing out there for nutrition.

salman
07-10-2007, 04:12 PM
I had the sucker plecos, i just baught 2 bristlenoses

What pH does your tapwater naturally hold at? 7
Do you know what those filters are rated for?
Are the filters HOB, canister, trickle, what?
How long has the tank been setup? about 2 months, but my discus have been there for about 2 weeks.

A Powerhead filter came with the tank, and the shop told me to get another outside filter so it would be crystal clean. I am not a filter pro. But the water looks clean.

I just looked or New Life Specturm fish food online, and there are alot of kinds. Which one do you use so i can order it. :)


When i was at the store to buy the bristlenose, i saw a discus that had the same problem as mine.. I asked a guy working there and he said it will go overtime.

Fishguy2727
07-10-2007, 05:57 PM
I usually start them on Thera+A, it has lots of garlic to help with any internal parasites. Then either the discus formula or all-purpose formula, all the formulas are effectively the same, so focus on size. I feed 1mm, which is sinking. That is why I have the bowl in there. I use an UGF tube to put the food right in the bowl. They know what the tube means. And it helps keep the tank cleaner, as well as help me monitor how much I'm overfeeding.

If they are new they may have some internal parasites. And if they are wild caught you can almost guarantee they have parasites and/or diseases. Either way I would use the Thera+A, at least for a while. Since it is not a medication, there is no way to overdose.

salman
07-10-2007, 10:56 PM
thank you so much. I just ordered them from a website :)

salman
07-10-2007, 10:58 PM
I have one more question. When i bought my discus, the sales man said that they need or like to have a kind of wood inside, something about the pH. The next day i went and bought alot more because it looked good in the aquarium. Does that affect the discus in any way?

Fishguy2727
07-11-2007, 02:59 AM
What is your tank's pH?
What is your tap pH?

Most driftwood will help soften the water and lower the pH, but buffers are much more effective. The most important function for driftwood is to help simulate the root habitat that they are used to. That is why I use long thin pieces and arrange them vertically, this simulates the root systems they are used to in the wild, which makes them much more comfortable. Their tall, laterally compressed bodies slip right through this wood arrangement.

What size tank is it?
What other fish are in there?

salman
07-12-2007, 12:02 AM
My tap pH is 7, and my aquarium is usually at 5. Should i take the wood out and leave my pH at a stable 7? or should i leave it at 5 and when i do water changes it may get up to 6?

How high is your hardness in your fish tank? My tap water is at 20, and my RO is at 7-9 i forgot. Yesterday i did a 50% water change and i put some RO water inside and now the pH is at a stable 13. Can they live with that? or do i need to go like 60% RO and 40% tap?



Thank you soo much for helping me btw.. My fish thank you too :) lol.

Fishguy2727
07-12-2007, 12:50 AM
I don't check my hardness, if I remember right it is not very hard, but medium-hard.

dragonslayer 71
07-15-2007, 01:46 AM
based on my experience cichlids same as discuss change in coloration first when they are starting to mate or into couting stage, also they change colors when they are treatened or under stress probably due to aggression. Check if some of the other fishes are bullying the one that have changed coloration.

Cal Discus
07-16-2007, 06:20 AM
Lately, i have noticed that my discus fish are turning black. It's like someone painted them and the paint is fading away. I don't know if its black or really dark gray. Its only on the light fish. The yellow and red and orange discus are the only ones who have it on them. Its mostly on the upper body. I have looked online for this problem but i keep finding different answers. I read that sometimes this is caused from the lightning. But, i don't have the lights turned on for more then 12 hours, and the light is not strong, its pink. I went to the fish store today to see if they had any good looking discus, and i saw a discus there that had the same problem i had, I asked the man working there and he said if i change the water it will change. But he looked like he didnt know what he was talking about. So, i asked another person, and he said that this is the discus' normal color. But when i bought mine they didn't have the black on them.

Any help would be great.
Its called peppering. You have pigeon blood strains. It has nothing to do with their health. They will pepper with dark backgrounds, substrate, decore, etc. Some will have more than others and if you want to see them lighten up, use light colors in the tank.

Cal Discus
07-16-2007, 06:22 AM
Driftwood gives off tannins which softens the water and gives it a brownish tint which simulates a natural environment. Dont use chemical buffers with discus. They are worthless anyway if you dont know your water. Your Kh is the ability of your water to resist Ph change and if it is high, you will see a rebound in 24 hours if using buffer which is not good for discus. I cant see you having 7, then 6, then 5. Those are pretty drastic changes in Ph.

Fishguy2727
07-16-2007, 01:01 PM
My tap is very hard, but my buffer (I use Proper pH) keeps it very stable. I do not have problems with it rebounding, I would not use them if it caused a roller coaster pH.

Cal Discus
07-16-2007, 08:49 PM
If you put tap water it in a bucket and aerated it for 24 hours, you would get the same outcome. Ph will stabilize in 24 hours without any additions of chemicals.

Fishguy2727
07-16-2007, 09:42 PM
Yes, but mine actually stabilizes in the other direction. My tap comes out at 7.0, and left on its own will stabilize at 8.0. I use Proper pH 6.5 and it keeps the tank right at 6.5.

Cal Discus
07-16-2007, 10:22 PM
There is nothing wrong with keeping discus at 8.0 if you are not breeding them. I have been doing it for years. Even if you are breeding, you really only want to look at Gh (hardness). 6.5 is not neccessary.

Fishguy2727
07-16-2007, 11:00 PM
May not be necessary, but they seem to do much better at the pH they have spent hundreds of thousands of years evolving to, rather than a higher pH that they have been forced to tolerate and acclimate to in a few generations.

Total dissolved solids is more important than hardness, it is a truer measurement of the dissolved minerals in the water, since not just calcium and magnesium affect the fish.

Cal Discus
07-17-2007, 04:20 AM
Most discus in the market have been tank raised and have never been in low Ph. They have been acclimated longer than you think. Correct, dissolved solids or DOC's as we call them, consist of everything the rots, decays and breaks down in the aquarium. We in the discus world fix this problem by changing the water.... Glad to see that you use sand which surely beats gravel. As far as Gh, I am talking about the egg membrane of discus fry. I guess you have never looked into breeding them?

Lady Hobbs
07-17-2007, 04:24 AM
Ahhhhh......more than even breeding them, he's in the business of selling them.

Cal Discus
07-17-2007, 04:27 AM
I dont sell them. I do it for fun. I dont recall once saying I had some for sale. I do it for the reward of the hobby.

Fishguy2727
07-17-2007, 01:19 PM
As do I.

I have seen them in lots of setups. We get them in at work all the time. They always seem to be healthier, less stressed, and overall do better in a pH of 5.0-7.0. They have evolved to tolerate higher pHs, but you can't undo hundreds of thousands of years of evolution that changed their physiology in a few generations.

Cal Discus
07-17-2007, 07:08 PM
You are missing the point. The discus you are getting were bred and raised in aquariums like yours and mine and they have been for much more than a few generations. This has been going on for nearly 30-40 years. I know 2 guys that have been doing this since the 50's and breeding them and raising them in San Francisco tap water. These discus have not been captured from the wild and brought to your store. Mostly, these discus have no idea what 5.0 Ph is like. Most discus breeders raise them in parameters that are close to what the population will have so that there is little affect on the fish. Then you have people that change Ph because they read it in a book somewhere. Granted, they prefer soft acidic water but it is not an absolute requirement. Those pictures I posted are my discus in Ph 7.8-8.0 Tap Water. For breeding, I dont pay much attention to the Ph, just the Gh hardness of the water because that is what affects the egg membrane and fertilization. I add RO water to change parameters because that is the safe way without chemicals. Those discus do not look stressed to me and I would know. Plus, I have raised discus fry of my own in the same water and you should probably know that if there was something wrong with that, delicate discus fry would surely not make it. Everything evolves and adapts...You and I did and discus are no different. They are very hardy animals when you treat them right. All hobbyists should feed better foods and keep their water clean. Discus just dont respond well to dirty conditions as well as most other fresh water fish do. Thats where the myth lies.

Fishguy2727
07-18-2007, 01:04 AM
I know they tolerate and even breed in 8.0, but my point is that from all my experience they seem to do better in lower pHs. At these lower pHs they seem more resistant to problems that may arise. They may do fine, well, or thrive in higher pHs, but that requires extra effort (like paying attention to and adjusting GH, more aggressive water change schedules, etc.) which is something many hobbyists won't do. The buffer that I use does not cause a roller coaster pH for me. If it does for someone else, they shouldn't use it. But for most people it seems like Proper pH is a stable buffer.

Cal Discus
07-18-2007, 03:59 AM
ok, pics tell the whole story. People can make up their own minds which they prefer, who is right and who is doing things the way they should. You have yours and I have mine. Thats fine with me.