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finest
07-05-2007, 02:38 PM
Are discus more difficult to keep rather than FH?

Lady Hobbs
07-05-2007, 02:50 PM
Discus are very expensive fish and need perfect water conditions. Very soft water. Why are you looking at such large fish? You need to stick with those your tank will accomodate comfortably.

You could have a very nice tank of community fish or a tank of smaller type cichlids.

finest
07-05-2007, 03:57 PM
Discus are very expensive fish and need perfect water conditions. Very soft water. Why are you looking at such large fish? You need to stick with those your tank will accomodate comfortably.

You could have a very nice tank of community fish or a tank of smaller type cichlids.

I’m done already w/ some ciclids, arowana, goldfish etc… even saltwater (FO), I tried to do a buy and sell too for the successful fish that I make big hehehe… but now I stop and focus to dog breeding. Now the only tank that I have is SW (FO) and I like to start a FW again but I like to try different fish that I never been tried, I will put this FW near on my bed for additional color for my room but I don’t know what fish that I will keep…

Rue
07-05-2007, 04:19 PM
Discus are beautiful, but very fussy fish.

They are shy...easily scared...might need special feeding...

They need black water and a low light, heavily planted tank to do really well...and LOTS of room to swim...

finest
07-05-2007, 04:37 PM
Discus are beautiful, but very fussy fish.

They are shy...easily scared...might need special feeding...

They need black water and a low light, heavily planted tank to do really well...and LOTS of room to swim...

I'm confuse, right now what FW fish that I will take care.

Anyone there can give me advice what fish that a could take care? I like a colorful fish that can add-up to the color of my room.

Rue
07-05-2007, 05:05 PM
Personally, I'd go with a livebearer tank...

finest
07-05-2007, 05:20 PM
Personally, I'd go with a livebearer tank...

What is the average lifespan of livebearer

troy
07-05-2007, 08:59 PM
1-3 years if they aren't riddled with diseases.

Fishguy2727
07-05-2007, 10:49 PM
What is FH?

troy
07-06-2007, 02:42 AM
Flower Horn.

finest
07-06-2007, 10:08 AM
Gold Fish is a family of what?

dev
07-06-2007, 11:39 AM
Gold Fish is a family of what?

Gold fish is of species Carassius auratus, in the family Cyprinidae of the order Cypriniformes

If you have never done livebearers (guppy, platy, molly, endler, killi etc) they can be interesting, and some even find them very interesting in the long run. Though I must admit the livebearer special interest group at my local club is a little smaller than the other groups :)

Other groups I find very interesting includes

* gouramies - elegant fish from around asia
* african cichlids - the most colourful freshwater fish in the world
* south american dwarf cichlids (Apistogramma) - demanding and shy fish with personality
* hillstream loaches - asian loaches that live in exceptionally fast moving water, they don't swim in the water - they soar in it

Perhaps you would like to try creating a biotope aquarium? By that I mean trying to imitate a geographic location, with fish, plants and decorations from that area. It could be a piece of the amazonas, a small river in india, a section of the great lakes of Afria (Malawi, Victora and Tanganyika) or any other location you fund interesting. This requires that your research the location you want, so you learn about the species that live there and their environment.

Fishguy2727
07-06-2007, 12:46 PM
That's what I thought. Flowerhorn get big, but are not as sensitive as discus. So each has its pros and cons.

finest
07-06-2007, 12:50 PM
Gold fish is of species Carassius auratus, in the family Cyprinidae of the order Cypriniformes

If you have never done livebearers (guppy, platy, molly, endler, killi etc) they can be interesting, and some even find them very interesting in the long run. Though I must admit the livebearer special interest group at my local club is a little smaller than the other groups :)

Other groups I find very interesting includes

* gouramies - elegant fish from around asia
* african cichlids - the most colourful freshwater fish in the world
* south american dwarf cichlids (Apistogramma) - demanding and shy fish with personality
* hillstream loaches - asian loaches that live in exceptionally fast moving water, they don't swim in the water - they soar in it

Perhaps you would like to try creating a biotope aquarium? By that I mean trying to imitate a geographic location, with fish, plants and decorations from that area. It could be a piece of the amazonas, a small river in india, a section of the great lakes of Afria (Malawi, Victora and Tanganyika) or any other location you fund interesting. This requires that your research the location you want, so you learn about the species that live there and their environment.

- Do Goldfish and Parrotfish fight when put on 1 aquarium?
- Do Parrotfish eat guppies?

Rue
07-06-2007, 01:56 PM
Goldfish need a species only tank (with one or two exceptions, such as the dojo loach). They are a coldwater fish. Mine are doing very well in the basement without a heater.

Guppies typically should have a species only tank, although they can be housed with dwarf platies and some other smaller fish.

Yes...guppies will be eaten.

Do you have a good fish book on hand?

Rue
07-06-2007, 02:00 PM
...If you have never done livebearers (guppy, platy, molly, endler, killi etc) they can be interesting, and some even find them very interesting in the long run. Though I must admit the livebearer special interest group at my local club is a little smaller than the other groups :)



Very true...but what happens is that people start off with the livebearers...and then 'move on' to what they consider more challenging fish...like anything, familiarity breeds contempt. I've had livebearers in my tank since day one...but I'm finding them more interesting as time goes on...

I'm planning on turning my 25g into a livebearer tank as the danios and tetras pass on...

For overall colour and activity...livebearers can't be beat...

finest
07-06-2007, 02:01 PM
Goldfish need a species only tank (with one or two exceptions, such as the dojo loach). They are a coldwater fish. Mine are doing very well in the basement without a heater.

Guppies typically should have a species only tank, although they can be housed with dwarf platies and some other smaller fish.

Yes...guppies will be eaten.

Do you have a good fish book on hand?

Nope, I don't have any book I just surf the net for info.

Rue
07-06-2007, 02:19 PM
A book is a bit nicer than surfing in many ways...it gives you all the basics...and then if you're confused you can come on-line and ask specific questions...libraries are a good option...take out some books, or just spend a bit of time in the library reading. Don't take out any really old books...I like the old books for fish biology and to see how the hobby has changed...but a lot of practices are quite different now...so stick to the newer books for that (newer than 2000).

The other option is Googling 'fish compatibility'...there are a few good charts available on line...but you still need to know what kind of tank you're interested in first...

Lady Hobbs
07-06-2007, 02:31 PM
If you like a larger type fish that will get along with everything, Silver Dollars are nice fish. They are silver and have no color to speak of but neon's can go with them, swordtails, gourami's, platies, etc, to add color.

Livebearers prefer salt and SD do not so I would probably go with Silver Dollars, colorful gourami's (dwarf's), neons and coreys.

Here's my SD at 9 months. They can not be in a planted tank, however.

finest
07-06-2007, 02:47 PM
A book is a bit nicer than surfing in many ways...it gives you all the basics...and then if you're confused you can come on-line and ask specific questions...libraries are a good option...take out some books, or just spend a bit of time in the library reading. Don't take out any really old books...I like the old books for fish biology and to see how the hobby has changed...but a lot of practices are quite different now...so stick to the newer books for that (newer than 2000).

The other option is Googling 'fish compatibility'...there are a few good charts available on line...but you still need to know what kind of tank you're interested in first...

I'm interested to have a colorful tank with a nature touch...

I'm using a white sand on my tank..

finest
07-06-2007, 02:52 PM
If you like a larger type fish that will get along with everything, Silver Dollars are nice fish. They are silver and have no color to speak of but neon's can go with them, swordtails, gourami's, platies, etc, to add color.

Livebearers prefer salt and SD do not so I would probably go with Silver Dollars, colorful gourami's (dwarf's), neons and coreys.

Here's my SD at 9 months. They can not be in a planted tank, however.

I find SD beautiful and some people say that's lucky fish.

I like to have a community tank w/ plants etc... But I don't like to small fish, I like to have mid fish like parrot etc.. Since I think FH is not good for community tank and ARO, so I’ll go for little bit peaceful fish but not too small...:28:

troy
07-06-2007, 04:49 PM
Silver Dollars eat plants. As what Rue said fancy guppies don't need a species tank. They can be kept in a small, peaceful community. They can also be kept in
a livebearer only tank. The livebearers they can't be in a tank with are pike top livebearers,four-eyed fish, and mosquito fish. What Rue said was probably because like some salt in their water.

dev
07-06-2007, 04:49 PM
Guppies typically should have a species only tank, although they can be housed with dwarf platies and some other smaller fish.


Any particular reason they might prefer to be kept in a species only tank?

I'm only asking because I've kept guppies in a lot of community tanks, they are quite usefull as they eat the proteins from the water surface, that might else become a problem in planted tanks with little surface movement.

My guppy-tank has guppy, endlers, swordtail, siamese algae eater and yoyo loach.

finest
07-06-2007, 04:59 PM
Any particular reason they might prefer to be kept in a species only tank?

I'm only asking because I've kept guppies in a lot of community tanks, they are quite usefull as they eat the proteins from the water surface, that might else become a problem in planted tanks with little surface movement.

My guppy-tank has guppy, endlers, swordtail, siamese algae eater and yoyo loach.

ooohhh... :18:

troy
07-06-2007, 04:59 PM
Dev really it just their preference for salt, just make sure you clean your tank regularly, quarantine new fish, etc.

finest
07-06-2007, 05:46 PM
Dev really it just their preference for salt, just make sure you clean your tank regularly, quarantine new fish, etc.

oh! ok... :19: :19: :19:

dev
07-06-2007, 05:54 PM
Dev really it just their preference for salt, just make sure you clean your tank regularly, quarantine new fish, etc.

Ah ok, I never used any. Well, except from potential leaks from the brine shrimp hatcher I use in my guppy fry tank ;)

finest
07-06-2007, 06:00 PM
Ah ok, I never used any. Well, except from potential leaks from the brine shrimp hatcher I use in my guppy fry tank ;)

Do all FW fish eat live worm...

troy
07-06-2007, 06:09 PM
Pretty much all of them except algae eaters.

Fishguy2727
07-06-2007, 09:48 PM
I have not found that livebearers need salt, except for mollies which are actually brackish. Under unideal conditions salt can make a big difference (new fish in the system at work), but for general use I would not use it, maybe unless you have soft water.

finest
07-07-2007, 10:22 AM
I have not found that livebearers need salt, except for mollies which are actually brackish. Under unideal conditions salt can make a big difference (new fish in the system at work), but for general use I would not use it, maybe unless you have soft water.

Oooh... well actually I put 1 tspn of non iodize salt every 1 gal every month...

Fishguy2727
07-07-2007, 12:42 PM
A lot of people use salt continuously on livebearers, and they are much more tolerant of it than most freshwater fish. Unless you have soft water they shouldn't need it and I have found they seem to do better without it except when under stressful conditions. As with all freshwater fish, I have found that salt only seems to help when there is something stressing them.

finest
07-07-2007, 05:43 PM
A lot of people use salt continuously on livebearers, and they are much more tolerant of it than most freshwater fish. Unless you have soft water they shouldn't need it and I have found they seem to do better without it except when under stressful conditions. As with all freshwater fish, I have found that salt only seems to help when there is something stressing them.


ooooh...:c3:

dev
07-07-2007, 06:41 PM
I'd like to add that if you have soft water, you can easily make it harder by adding calcium and magnesium sulfates. There is no need to add salt, even though many livebearers can live in brackish water, they are perfectly fine in freshwater.

While I do not add salt (sodium chloride) to my livebearer tank, I do add a mix of calcium sulfate (75%) and magnesium sulfate (25%) to increase the total hardness. This stuff does not affect the pH and does not make the water salty.

Most livebearers prefer hard water and Guppy in particular likes 9 to 19 dH (thats german degrees of hardness). My tap water has a GH of 0 to 1 degrees, thus I add about 25 grams of my GH mix per 100 liter (26.5 gal) water and get about 10 dH.

For a fishkeeper GH (total hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and salinity (total dissolved salts) are different things entirely.

GH refers to the dissolved concetration of magnesium and calcium ions. It does not include sodium.

KH refers to the concentration of dissolved carbonates aka buffer capacity or alkalinity of the water.

Salinity is the total ammount of dissolved salts, including KH, GH and sodium.

finest
07-08-2007, 03:59 PM
I'd like to add that if you have soft water, you can easily make it harder by adding calcium and magnesium sulfates. There is no need to add salt, even though many livebearers can live in brackish water, they are perfectly fine in freshwater.

While I do not add salt (sodium chloride) to my livebearer tank, I do add a mix of calcium sulfate (75%) and magnesium sulfate (25%) to increase the total hardness. This stuff does not affect the pH and does not make the water salty.

Most livebearers prefer hard water and Guppy in particular likes 9 to 19 dH (thats german degrees of hardness). My tap water has a GH of 0 to 1 degrees, thus I add about 25 grams of my GH mix per 100 liter (26.5 gal) water and get about 10 dH.

For a fishkeeper GH (total hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and salinity (total dissolved salts) are different things entirely.

GH refers to the dissolved concetration of magnesium and calcium ions. It does not include sodium.

KH refers to the concentration of dissolved carbonates aka buffer capacity or alkalinity of the water.

Salinity is the total ammount of dissolved salts, including KH, GH and sodium.


ThankX for the informations. I'll take note of that.

Cal Discus
07-16-2007, 06:48 AM
Discus are beautiful, but very fussy fish.

They are shy...easily scared...might need special feeding...

They need black water and a low light, heavily planted tank to do really well...and LOTS of room to swim...

You should do a little more research because They can be very bold, dont scare easy and eat what all other fish eat. They live just fine in regular tap water with prime water conditioner and a regular hooded light. Room would be correct but not absolute. 1 discus to 10g is the recommended load for a newbie. BB tank for young ones and then you can go with substrate and plants later when they become adults. Discus are no different than other fish. Its just that most other fish can handle being treated badly to a greater extent. Everyone should be keeping their tanks clean and feed their fish pellet, flake and live food to keep them healthy. Its a myth that they are hard to keep and are delicate.

Fishguy2727
07-16-2007, 01:03 PM
What is a BB tank?

salman
07-16-2007, 04:15 PM
I have a discus tank right now. If you take good care of them it will be really rewarding. But, treat the discus as if they are royal. Everything needs to be perfect!

Cal Discus
07-16-2007, 08:33 PM
What is a BB tank?

Bare Bottom

Cal Discus
07-16-2007, 08:39 PM
I have a discus tank right now. If you take good care of them it will be really rewarding. But, treat the discus as if they are royal. Everything needs to be perfect!

They are, afterall, King Of The Aquarium! It doesnt have to be perfect but you need to keep it healthy which goes the same for any aquarium that you are keeping if you care about what you do and the fish you keep. Basic needs: Clean water, temp around 83-86F, varied good foods with pellet, flake, dried and live. Whats so hard about that? Discus will adapt to most water conditions as long as there isnt a drastic change. Ph...they can live fine in water anywhere from 5.5-8.0 but stable. If breeding them, then the water plays a larger part.

Fishguy2727
07-16-2007, 09:33 PM
They don't need live or dried. There are a lot of high quality pellets and other prepared foods, enough that are more nutritious than live and dried to not need either.

Cal Discus
07-16-2007, 10:35 PM
Every fish program should incorporate all types of food, especially live. Yes, there are plenty of prepared foods but do you think they eat pellets in the wild? Nothing takes the place of live food. Nothing grows large fish to their potential like live foods and then it is also good for conditioning them for breeding. Try some, I'll bet your fish will show you what I mean and will appreciate some real food and the hunt.

Fishguy2727
07-16-2007, 11:12 PM
Mine love NLS, which is the only thing they get. They are growing quite well, although not as fast as if I powerfed them on a super high protein diet. No, they do not get pellets in the wild, but they also don't get blackworms, brine shrimp, or other live foods fed to tank fish. And in the wild, most don't make it to adulthood, that is not something I am going to base my care on. And if you are basing care on the wild, didn't you say they are fine at 8.0? That is not what they have in nature. So which is it, wild simulation or tolerances in captivity? The point is, prepared foods are perfectly fine and do not carry the risk of disease that live food can. Prepared foods take an assortment of food items, then add supplements. You get a much more complete diet with a high quality pellet like NLS than you would with even a highly varied live food diet.

Cal Discus
07-17-2007, 04:02 AM
Mine love NLS, which is the only thing they get. They are growing quite well, although not as fast as if I powerfed them on a super high protein diet. No, they do not get pellets in the wild, but they also don't get blackworms, brine shrimp, or other live foods fed to tank fish. And in the wild, most don't make it to adulthood, that is not something I am going to base my care on. And if you are basing care on the wild, didn't you say they are fine at 8.0? That is not what they have in nature. So which is it, wild simulation or tolerances in captivity? The point is, prepared foods are perfectly fine and do not carry the risk of disease that live food can. Prepared foods take an assortment of food items, then add supplements. You get a much more complete diet with a high quality pellet like NLS than you would with even a highly varied live food diet.
I am talking grindal worms and white worms which beat any prepared food and come with very little risk if any and that IS what they would find in the wild (worms). you can feed the culture of worms many things which adds to the health of the discus. Yes, they can live in a varied of tank conditions and yes some like to simulate the wild to the best we can within a glass box. Anywhere between 5.5 or so and 8.0 is what I said (stable). They live just fine but I like to try and incorporate as many natural things as possible. Yes, most dont make it to adulthood but some of the biggest ones recorded came from the wild. A high-quality diet would include all of the above as I stated before.

Fishguy2727
07-17-2007, 01:15 PM
Have you tried NLS? Have you tried it as the only food for them?

Cal Discus
07-17-2007, 07:22 PM
ONF is better and yes, I have tried many foods. I would never only use one food. Could you live on lettuce and a few vitamin pills for every meal? A non-meat diet is not the proper way for discus. Discus are Omnivores.

salman
07-17-2007, 07:29 PM
I am loving this proving eachother wrong thing goin on. I'm learning more about discus from you two then i could ever from any other website!

Cal Discus
07-17-2007, 07:35 PM
It is entertaining to say the least when someone who thinks they know alot about something encounters someone that really does. Nothing wrong with helping a fellow fish lover out with what you do know though.

salman
07-17-2007, 07:39 PM
i want more people who know about discus to join this forum so we can see what everyones opinion is and how they keep them.

dev
07-17-2007, 07:48 PM
While I don't keep any Discus (I find them terribly boring *ducks* :p) I must agree with Cal Discus. While pellets will do, variation is better.

Using live food has other advantages than just being nutritious. It appeals to the hunting instincts of your fish, making them behave more naturally and makes them healthier and "happier".

I'm a strong believer that your fish will be better off if you give them the chance to live out their natural behaviour, that includes having sand as substrate for diggers, heavy circulation for hillstream loaches and the occational live food for omnivores.

Lady Hobbs
07-17-2007, 09:47 PM
I am loving this proving each other wrong thing goin on. I'm learning more about discus from you two then i could ever from any other website!

What this forum has never been about is proving each other wrong. We can only tell of our own experiences and what we think but in the end, we all have our own opinions and our own way of doing things. If what we're doing for our fish works for us, we have healthy fish and no illnesses, then all are happy.

I clean the blazes out of my gravel twice a month and change the filter media. Others think this is unnecessary. Others do larger water changes than I do and I do more than other people. Some use salt and others don't. Some swear that one kind of substrate is the way to go and others claim something totally different works best as well as disagreeing on what kind of plant ferts to use, what kind of meds to use, what background looks the best, etc, etc, etc.

The point being...no two people here do everything the same way. Arguing a point does nothing, changes no ones way of thinking and only causes discord and hard feelings in the forum. It serves no purpose.

This forum is known as one of the friendliest forums on the net and I hope we can all strive to keep it that way.

Cal Discus
07-17-2007, 11:08 PM
While I don't keep any Discus (I find them terribly boring *ducks* :p) I must agree with Cal Discus. While pellets will do, variation is better.

Using live food has other advantages than just being nutritious. It appeals to the hunting instincts of your fish, making them behave more naturally and makes them healthier and "happier".

I'm a strong believer that your fish will be better off if you give them the chance to live out their natural behaviour, that includes having sand as substrate for diggers, heavy circulation for hillstream loaches and the occational live food for omnivores.

I have just started feeding them live white worms and you should see them go after em! I think these are their favorite so far. I have 2 cultures going right now in order to save a few bucks on fish food. Dont get me wrong, I feed alot of pellet mostly with some dried and frozen but there is no substitute to live food. Its not just the live food itself but I can feed these worms anything I want and guess where it all goes? Yep, right into the fish eating it. If all you can do is feed them flake and you and the fish are happy, then thats all ya need. Just try it a couple of times with live food and you will see the difference and if you do it for a good period of time, you will have some healthier and larger discus. You can do this with most fish.

salman
07-17-2007, 11:15 PM
What this forum has never been about is proving each other wrong. We can only tell of our own experiences and what we think but in the end, we all have our own opinions and our own way of doing things. If what we're doing for our fish works for us, we have healthy fish and no illnesses, then all are happy.

I clean the blazes out of my gravel twice a month and change the filter media. Others think this is unnecessary. Others do larger water changes than I do and I do more than other people. Some use salt and others don't. Some swear that one kind of substrate is the way to go and others claim something totally different works best as well as disagreeing on what kind of plant ferts to use, what kind of meds to use, what background looks the best, etc, etc, etc.

The point being...no two people here do everything the same way. Arguing a point does nothing, changes no ones way of thinking and only causes discord and hard feelings in the forum. It serves no purpose.

This forum is known as one of the friendliest forums on the net and I hope we can all strive to keep it that way.

Sorry, what i meant was that they are both giving their opinions and they both know they are right lol.

Cal Discus
07-17-2007, 11:20 PM
What this forum has never been about is proving each other wrong. We can only tell of our own experiences and what we think but in the end, we all have our own opinions and our own way of doing things. If what we're doing for our fish works for us, we have healthy fish and no illnesses, then all are happy.

I clean the blazes out of my gravel twice a month and change the filter media. Others think this is unnecessary. Others do larger water changes than I do and I do more than other people. Some use salt and others don't. Some swear that one kind of substrate is the way to go and others claim something totally different works best as well as disagreeing on what kind of plant ferts to use, what kind of meds to use, what background looks the best, etc, etc, etc.

The point being...no two people here do everything the same way. Arguing a point does nothing, changes no ones way of thinking and only causes discord and hard feelings in the forum. It serves no purpose.

This forum is known as one of the friendliest forums on the net and I hope we can all strive to keep it that way.

I agree, everyone should help out with what they know and no two are ever going to do it the same. However, there is the right way and wrong way sometimes. Salman at this point is returning sick fish and getting more from a lfs. He is only setting himself up for further problems by doing this. Giving him advice to purchase from the same lfs or any lfs that doesnt specialize is wrong. There might be a handful of lfs's out there that have discus and know what to do with them and not specialize. I have given many examples of ones that do and in most cases, it will not cost you anymore than buying some at the lfs. Sure, maybe you cant buy 6-8 at one time but in the long run when you return them because they are sick or dead and then buy more later and then they are sick again, you have probably spent more. I know. Spent $100's on lfs discus when I first started. They all died and from what I know now, they were all sick to begin with. You could even look for a local breeder and not have to pay shipping. I drive 2 hours to go get some quality discus. What is funny....everyone has this idea that discus are delicate, hard to care for, etc. Sure they have a few needs and maybe a couple more than your regular FW fish but the rewards are greater. Anyone could throw a few fresh water fish from the store into a tank and keep them but i guess I like a little more challenge.

salman
07-17-2007, 11:27 PM
I agree, everyone should help out with what they know and no two are ever going to do it the same. However, there is the right way and wrong way sometimes. Salman at this point is returning sick fish and getting more from a lfs. He is only setting himself up for further problems by doing this. Giving him advice to purchase from the same lfs or any lfs that doesnt specialize is wrong. There might be a handful of lfs's out there that have discus and know what to do with them and not specialize. I have given many examples of ones that do and in most cases, it will not cost you anymore than buying some at the lfs. Sure, maybe you cant buy 6-8 at one time but in the long run when you return them because they are sick or dead and then buy more later and then they are sick again, you have probably spent more. I know. Spent $100's on lfs discus when I first started. They all died and from what I know now, they were all sick to begin with. You could even look for a local breeder and not have to pay shipping. I drive 2 hours to go get some quality discus. What is funny....everyone has this idea that discus are delicate, hard to care for, etc. Sure they have a few needs and maybe a couple more than your regular FW fish but the rewards are greater. Anyone could throw a few fresh water fish from the store into a tank and keep them but i guess I like a little more challenge.

I am starting to agree with you. But i think some of the problems were from my tank, i think although i am not sure. But, if i could order some fish online, i would without any doubt. But, i dont live in the US and all the online fish stores only ship within the US. So i have no choice to buy them from a LFS. But the when i go get them tomorrow they would be just arrived. I've had fish for about 3 years, and none of them got sick until i got my discus. But, in the beggining i treated the discus like any other fish. I think thats what made them sick or something. But, right now i have 5 healthy discus, and tomorrow i might get like 8-10 more. I have no choice but to put them with my other 5 since i have no tank big enough to hold 10 discus for a month. I know im risking some fish, but i wont be to sad if 1 or 2 die. But im hoping none of them do. I am also feeding then anti parasite food which might help too.

Cal Discus
07-17-2007, 11:45 PM
But, right now i have 5 healthy discus
Why risk this?

tomorrow i might get like 8-10 more.
You better have large enough accomadations because you are just risking stress and sickness with cramped conditions if you dont have the experience with it. All I can say is you better be doing daily large w/c's and very good filtration.

I have no choice but to put them with my other 5 since i have no tank big enough to hold 10 discus for a month.
Then dont get them until you do because a good QT program is essential to the well-being of any new or old fish.

I know im risking some fish
you are risking all of your fish.


i wont be to sad if 1 or 2 die
you would be sad and broke if you lost them all. What kind of medications do you have, have you ever used any?

salman
07-17-2007, 11:49 PM
I only use the General Aid when a fish is sick. my tank is a 45 gallon. I know it is not enough to hold 15 discus. But they are really small. When they get bigger i might move them to a 86 gallon i have.

Fishguy2727
07-18-2007, 01:28 AM
15 is too much for an 86 in my opinion. Don't be too eager to get them either. I think you need to hold off until you know you can deal with all of them. This is something that I tried to get at before. So I am not encouraging him to overstock his tank with sick discus from a LFS that doesn't know what they are doing.

What is ONF food? Why is it the best? You said you have tried lots of food, but have you tried NLS? Did you use it as the only food? It has meat in it, so it is providing a proper diet. I have tried feeding discus with live foods, mixed diets, and NLS. The NLS exclusive diet is the best (which is why it is the only thing all my fish get). Any other food I would say has to be part of a varied diet. I have not encountered any food that is good as the sole food, except NLS. Theoretically that may not make sense, and that could be argued until the sun goes down (again and again). But the results speak for themselves.

Cal Discus
07-18-2007, 03:51 AM
I agree 15 is too much for even an 86g unless you are prepared to do 75% w/c's daily.

As for the rest, you can feed your fish whatever you want. Its ok. You bought them, you like them and if that is enough, its fine.

Fishguy2727
07-18-2007, 01:54 PM
If you have not tried NLS as the only food I suggest you give it a shot. It really is the best food out there, and the results it provides with freshwater fish, saltwater fish, and even saltwater inverts prove this. Fish that are almost impossible to even keep alive in captivity (moorish idols) are fat and happy on this stuff for years. And it is not just enough, it is the best diet I have found for fish. I base this on the results I have gotten with it. Not on theoretical stuff like 'it's not what they would get in the wild so it can't be the best', or 'they 'need' it for mental happiness', and other unprovable ideas. The results are the results. Obviously people are getting great results on diets like yours, beefheart based diets, and all sorts of other stuff. But from the results I have seen on diets like that, the NLS seems better. Until someone runs an experiment and splits a brood into groups and feeds each group differently, we can't be sure. But NLS is definitely not insufficient or lacking.

dev
07-18-2007, 06:07 PM
Not on theoretical stuff like 'it's not what they would get in the wild so it can't be the best', or 'they 'need' it for mental happiness', and other unprovable ideas.

Saying that the effects of live food is unprovable is .. just plain silly. I don't think you will find a single biologist that believes pellets or flakes are better than a balanced diet concisting of artifical, frozen and live food. Perhaps with he exception of Pablo Tepoot and other manufacturers of artificial food, but not even Pablo denies the positive effects of live food - he simply claims that NLS is better for large fish than any other artifical fish food products on the market.

The kind of experiments you refer to has been done numerous times. Live food improves health, reduces stress and agression and promotes natural behaviour.

While I'm sure you have excellent experience with the NLS pellets, as others have excellent experience with other artificial aswell as frozen foods, there is just nothing to suggest a pellet can totally replace the occational live food, unless you can make the pellet move and try to escape.

I highly reccomend:

Metabolism, Energy Use and Feeding Behaviors in Fish by Terry D. Bartelme. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/4/aafeature1/

A Preliminary Evaluation of Naturally Occurring Organisms, Distillery By-Products, and Prepared Diets as Food for Juvenile Freshwater Prawn by Macrobrachium rosenbergii. Can be purchased at http://www.haworthpress.com/

Evaluation of Commercially-Formulated Diets for Feeding Tiger Barb, Puntius tetrazona by Frank A. Chapman. Can be purchased at http://www.haworthpress.com/

Substitution of live food by formulated diets in marine fish larvae by Chantal Cahu and José Zambonino Infante. http://www.ifremer.fr/docelec/doc/2001/publication-447.pdf

Cal Discus
07-18-2007, 08:21 PM
If you have not tried NLS as the only food I suggest you give it a shot. It really is the best food out there, and the results it provides with freshwater fish, saltwater fish, and even saltwater inverts prove this. Fish that are almost impossible to even keep alive in captivity (moorish idols) are fat and happy on this stuff for years. And it is not just enough, it is the best diet I have found for fish. I base this on the results I have gotten with it. Not on theoretical stuff like 'it's not what they would get in the wild so it can't be the best', or 'they 'need' it for mental happiness', and other unprovable ideas. The results are the results. Obviously people are getting great results on diets like yours, beefheart based diets, and all sorts of other stuff. But from the results I have seen on diets like that, the NLS seems better. Until someone runs an experiment and splits a brood into groups and feeds each group differently, we can't be sure. But NLS is definitely not insufficient or lacking.

I already told you that I would not feed my fish only one thing. It is a boring and incorrect way to feed them and it doesnt meet their dietary needs.
So, let me get this right... Because of your expert knowledge and experience, you say NLS is the best food, we should go with that? Wheres your research other than...My fish like it because they eat it? Have you looked on the internet lately? have you done any research into live foods? Anyone that is anyone will tell you that live food is an important part of a Omivores diet. Their digestive systems are set up to process all kinds of food to including plant and meat. Next, please point out to me from your vast research why you think they are the best...

New Life Spectrum

MAIN INGREDIENTS: Krill Meal, Fish Meal, Wheat Flour, Amino Acids, Algae Meal, Soybean Meal, Fish Oil, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal- Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine, Biotin.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Protein 34% Min., Fat 5% Min., Fiber 5% Max., Ash 9% Max., Moisture 10% Max.


Ocean Nutrition Formula 1 and 2

Ingredients: Shrimp, plankton, sardine, soybean, wheat flour, salmon egg oil, lecithin, spirulina, fish oil, minerals (calcium chloride, potassium iodide, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, magnesium carbonate, zinc sulfate), garlic, MPAX (Marine Protein Amino eXtract: fish meals, hydrolysate's, select amino acids (arginine, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, cystine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine)), vitamins (stabilized vitamin C, biotin, beta carotene, cyanocobalamin, niacin, riboflavin, thiamin, vitamin E), preservatives (ethoxyquin, potassium sorbate), amino acids (dl- methionine, L-lysine), carotenoid pigments (astaxanthin, canthaxanthin), and beta glucan.

Ingredients: Shrimp, plankton, sardine, kelp, alfalfa, squid, salmon egg oil, spirulina, lecithin, fish oil, garlic, casein, minerals (calcium chloride, potassium iodide, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, magnesium carbonate zinc sulfate), MPAX (Marine Protein Amino eXtract: fish meals, hydrolysate's, select amino acids (arginine, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, cystine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine)), vitamins (stabilized vitamin C, biotin, beta carotene, cyanocobalamin, niacin, riboflavin, thiamine. vitamin E), preservatives (ethoxyquin, potassium sorbate), carotenoid pigments (astaxanthin, canthaxanthin), and beta glucan.

Tetra Bits

Ingredients: Fish Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Wheat Germ Meal, Wheat Flour Corn Gluten, Feeding Oat Meal, Potato Protein, Shrimp Meal, Dried Yeast, Wheat Gluten, Monobasic Calcium Phosphate, L-Lysine Mono-Hydrochloride, Lecithin, Algae Meal, Soybean Oil, Ascorbic Acid, Inositol, Niacin, A-Tocopherol-Acetate, Riboflavin-5-Phosphate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Choline Chloride, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Palmitate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Cyanocobalamin, Chole-Calciferol, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Colors include: Beta-Carotene, Red #3, Ehtoxyquin, Citric Acid.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein: 47.5 % Min.
Crude Fat: 6.5 % Min.
Crude Fiber: 2 % Max.
Moisture: 6 % Max.

Please tell me you have more than "Its just theory". If you can read, pick up a few books about discus my friend and you will see that you have no idea. This "theory" as you say, has been studied many times by experts in the field. Did you know that most flake or pellet foods lose their nutritional value by sitting on the shelf? How long have you been using that can of NLS. It has lost alot just sitting there if it has been a month. How long had it been sitting on the shelf in the store when you bought it? You are over your head when it comes to diet needs of discus. Drop a couple of white worms next to your NLS food and see what they go for first. Try some frozen blood worms....I'll bet they go for that over the NLS. I'll bet they would even go for Hikari Freeze Dried blood worms. Will they eat NLS? Sure they will if that is the only thing they have to eat. How do you know they dont prefer something else if you only feed one thing? You talk about evolution. You cant feed a fish that ate plants and live food for thousands of years..one pellet food and for one minute think that it is the best food because they eat it. Do your fish a favor and treat them to some live foods. Do yourself a favor and read and research a subject before you try and pass off your experiences as fact. Do everyone else a favor and move on to another subject that you know something about because it isnt discus or well-balanced diet.

salman
07-18-2007, 10:58 PM
Where can you buy white worms?
I tried feeding my discus frozen bloodworms, they dont eat it! Mine only eat food that goes down. For some reason they dont eat on the surface.

dev
07-18-2007, 11:11 PM
Where can you buy white worms?
I tried feeding my discus frozen bloodworms, they dont eat it! Mine only eat food that goes down. For some reason they dont eat on the surface.

Frozen bloodworms should sink, at least the red ones I use do - unless you mean freeze dried bloodworms.

I usually thaw the frozen ones in a small container with warm water, also to clean them a little since they are often quite messy, then use a fork to put them in the tank. You should not touch red bloodworms with your fingers, due to the cummulative risk of allergy.

If you have the freeze dried ones, you can soak them in water for a while before feeding them. This will make them sink, and the fish also seems more interested in them this way.

Unfortunately I have no idea where to get the different kinds of frozen or live foods in Kuwait :( Maybe your LFS knows.

salman
07-18-2007, 11:45 PM
Frozen bloodworms should sink, at least the red ones I use do - unless you mean freeze dried bloodworms.

I usually thaw the frozen ones in a small container with warm water, also to clean them a little since they are often quite messy, then use a fork to put them in the tank. You should not touch red bloodworms with your fingers, due to the cummulative risk of allergy.

If you have the freeze dried ones, you can soak them in water for a while before feeding them. This will make them sink, and the fish also seems more interested in them this way.

Unfortunately I have no idea where to get the different kinds of frozen or live foods in Kuwait :( Maybe your LFS knows.

Thanks dev.

I mean the bloodworms that come ready, like the flakes and pellets. I saw them in my LFS, so i baught some. Then when i came house i was excited to feed them so i did and they didnt even go close to it since it doesnt sink. It stays at the surface.

Fishguy2727
07-19-2007, 02:24 AM
I tried a variety of frozen and other prepared foods besides NLS, they did not grow as well on it or have as good of coloration as they do with the NLS. They were also never nearly as enthusiastic about that stuff as they are about the NLS.

The theoretical things that I am talking about are when people say 'it is not what they eat in the wild, so it can't be the best' which can be easily argued, but cannot be proven. Just because it is what they eat in the wild does not mean nothing else is as good or even better. The other thing that cannot be proven is that they need live food for mental stimulation or mental health. This cannot be proven either.

It is simply about nutrition. If they need x protein, y fat, etc. then if you provide that, you provide that. You may do it with live, frozen, freeze-dried, pelleted, etc. or all. But if you get that nutrition in them, you did your job. There may be some that are more efficient or biologically available, and those differences will make one better than another.

Have any of these experiments included NLS as a sole diet? I am sure that many experiments have been done on fish nutrition (especially with commercial farming), but I would be very interested in the results of one that included NLS fed as directed (solely).

I am not expecting anyone to burn all their old foods and switch all their fish over to NLS and never look back. All I am saying is if you think prepared foods can't compete with live, frozen, etc. or that you need to have variety, give NLS a try. See how your fish do on it and decide for yourself if the results are that good or not. That is it. I do not think anyone should simply take some random person online's opinion for fact and change their ways. There needs to be support for it. At the least, take it skeptically and look into it more.

And I do not think it is right to keep saying that I do not know what I am talking about. I may not agree with you, but that does not mean I don't know what I am doing. My fish are healthy and happy. Other people are improving their fishcare because of my help. I may not be as much of an expert as many, but hopefully I will keep getting better and better with time. So please, keep personal opinions to yourself, as I will. And if I am so ignorant of this information and you are so advanced, rather than simply saying I am wrong and that you are a real expert, how about sharing your knowledge. Give us all a breakdown of exactly how you keep your discus (diet, filtration, water changes, water parameters, tankmates, etc.) as well as the reasoning for all of it. Let us learn from it. That would be much more beneficial to us all than the way we are currently going. Obviously my way works, your way works, one may be better than the other, but let's get the most out of this.

salman
07-19-2007, 02:48 AM
I have been using NLS for about a week now, and i am seeing changes with my fish. They look brighter and even healthier. I am going to keep going with NLS, i have even ordered a different variety. My fish love it!! I can see them smiling lol.

dev
07-19-2007, 06:47 AM
The "mental" effects if you will, of live food can be easily proven. Did you have a look at the links I provided? Fish behaviour is something that can be objectively observed and concluded upon. Though, it's more about instincts, metabology, physical exercise and the interest they show for different kinds of food.

A small example to this effect can be seen when comparing deshelled artemia eggs to newly hatched live artemia as food for juveniles. Deshelled artemia eggs have a much higher nutritional value - exactly the same composition as live artemia, just a higher concentration. However, anyone who has fed with both will know that the fry grows much faster on live artemia. Studies have documented up to 50% faster growth.

There are, of course, no studies or evaluations on NLS specifically in comparison to feeding natural living organisms. But a new recipe for a pellet does not automatically invalidate decades of research. Until new research proves NLS to provide the same effects as live food we can only assume that past studies are still valid.

I can however believe that a pellet like NLS can to some extent replace the need for variation, and provide the apropriate amounts of nutritions, vitamins and minerals on it's own. I suggest trying NLS with a weekly meal of live foods.

Drumachine09
07-19-2007, 07:07 AM
I have been doing some quasi reasearch for myself on live foods vs pellets. Here are some of the things i noticed.

When ever i put in a live guppy fry, my severums colors darkened, and his eyes turned a bright orange. Now, that could be some sort of camoflauge instinct, it could be because he was excited, or it could be because the fry is providing "mental stimulation"

I tried feeding nothing but live guppies for 20 days, and i didnt notice a whole lot of change. Id plop one-three in a day (depending on how well my guppies were kicking out the babies), he'd chase it and eat it, and go on about his business. I didnt notice any change in coloration (besides the "color flares" when the fry went in) and i didnt notice him bulking up any.

So then i tried hikari cichlid gold in the small pellets for 20 days. He seemed very eager to eat (swimming as fast as he could to the feeding area of the tank, dashing for the food, etc), and i notices that the characteristic "squiggles" on the severums face began to show. Now, i dont know if this was just because of him aging, or if it really WAS the food, but they were definatly coming in. I also noticed that he was beginning to get a little thicker. He wasnt getting fat, or bloated, but it looked more like he was getting more mass to him. I definatly noticed better coloration with the pellets than with the feeders.



Now, you can feel free to pull up all sorts of reasearch and link to try to discredit my findings, but this is what i have experianced. But, then again, what do i know? Im just a kid with a fish tank and a lap top.

dev
07-19-2007, 07:40 AM
Now, you can feel free to pull up all sorts of reasearch and link to try to discredit my findings, but this is what i have experianced. But, then again, what do i know? Im just a kid with a fish tank and a lap top.

Not at all. I believe our fish do very well with a prepared diet to make sure they get all the nutritions and vitamins they need, and I'm not surprised by your findings, they all make very much sense to me - even if you're just a kid with a tank and a laptop - after all I'm just a big kid with a bunch of tanks and laptops ;)

Fishguy2727
07-19-2007, 01:00 PM
The thing about NLS is how different it is. Before I used NLS I used high quality diets, like Hikari, and mixes of lots of high quality foods. And before that I used different live foods. Before NLS I found that variety was usually the key, short of a few exceptions like Hikari Sinking Carnivore Pellets and Hikari Cichlid Bio-Gold+. But NLS is a huge step forward in nutrition. The results are what I foscus on and are what convinced me. Most of the 'research' I paid attention to was not formal investigations into the nutritonal analysis of this versus that, but simply the results people got. Many of these results are found on NLS's website. These include articles published in TFH, as well as a letter from the (now former?) president of the American Cichlid Association. These are in addition to countless testimonials from Joe Shmoe and Sally Fishkeeper. It has proven time and again for MANY people to be the ideal diet with their fish. To me these cummulatively form a large research project with lots of samples, trials, and controls. So it is not simply that I do not like live food and prefer pellets, of which I happen to like NLS, it is through 11 years of trial and error with many different foods and diets that I came to this one that really stands out and above the rest. And the results mentioned do not prove that live food is no good. And it does not necessarily prove that NLS is superior to all other foods. What it proves is that it is worth a try. Anyone who wants to do the best for their fish should always be on the lookout for the next new best and ways to improve their methods. Because of that I think people should simply give NLS a shot.

As far as the mental aspects go, many people use the mental 'benefits' of live food as a con of prepared, implying that there is harm to the fish if it does not receive this enrichment. I do not think that can be proven.

Another thing many use as a con of prepared is its bland repetitiveness. 'How would you like to eat the same thing everyday?' Well, humans and fish are a tad different. We have become used to the most varied diet the planet has ever known. So for us, it would be quite a frustrating ordeal to settle for the same food everyday. Fish on the other hand are not quite at the same level in this area. They have an instinct to eat. They simply want to fill their bellies and if given options may show strong preferences (as you have shown), but even then those preferences are based on the nutrition (as you have shown). And sometimes those preferences can actually be harmful. Many foods are rare and may only come for a few weeks per year. These foods may be extremely nutrient rich. Some may be very fatty, others very high in protein. So the fish have developed a strong attraction to these foods as a way of ensuring the body they fatten up for the dry season ahead, or some other natural need to get that food or nutrient as much as possible when it is available. So they may have a preference for it because of a strong need for it because of its rarity in the wild. (This is why fat tastes so good to us.)