African Cichlid Hybrids

[Walker]

They appeared in my tank and lived . It is a 100 gallon long and they are great africans. Yellow lab and cobalt blue hybrids. All friendly, hungry,and very colorful with yellow and blue highlights.Not neccesarily what is correct but it happened.

[Sandz]

:worthless:

[Lab_Rat]

Please don't disperse them or anything.

[kingkarter]

Please don't disperse them or anything.


Why shouldn't he?

[Lab_Rat]

Why shouldn't he?

Because it is extremely irresponsible to do so. Hybrids (especially african cichlid hybrids) are very detrimental to the hobby. When the hybrids breed the results may look pure but when bred again produce nasty surprises. It makes it very hard to preserve true species. Just do a google search on the negative impacts of hybrids on the fishkeeping hobby.

[850R]

Because it is extremely irresponsible to do so. Hybrids (especially african cichlid hybrids) are very detrimental to the hobby. When the hybrids breed the results may look pure but when bred again produce nasty surprises. It makes it very hard to preserve true species. Just do a google search on the negative impacts of hybrids on the fishkeeping hobby.

... Because it is worth repeating.

[Sandz]

Originally Posted by Lab_Rat
Because it is extremely irresponsible to do so. Hybrids (especially african cichlid hybrids) are very detrimental to the hobby. When the hybrids breed the results may look pure but when bred again produce nasty surprises. It makes it very hard to preserve true species. Just do a google search on the negative impacts of hybrids on the fishkeeping hobby.

... Because it is worth repeating.

+1

[kingkarter]

Thtas weird you'd think they it would be fine but i guess not.

[Lab_Rat]

Thtas weird you'd think they it would be fine but i guess not.

Since it seems you do not understand why I said what I said, here is an excellent article on the problem with hybrids that was posted on another site: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

I encourage you to read it to gain insight as to why hybrids are detrimental to the hobby.

[Trillianne]

Interesting reading Lab_rat.

Its rather odd that they so freely hybridize in captivity but not in the wild.

[Alasse]

Many hybrid fry are sold as feeders, or used by the owners as feeders. You could sell them on, but as the guys above have said, be very careful doing so, and be very particular to whom you sell, make sure they are FULLY aware that these are hybids and definately should not be bred from.

Personally if they were mine i'd cull them or only sell to experience fishkeepers who understand the need that the hybrids not be used for breeding.

[Fishguy2727]

However, unless the adults in the tank who parented these 'hybrids' are wild caught or offspring of wild caught THEY might not even be 'pure' (assuming wild caught are necessarily 'pure'). Most of the African cichlids in the hobby are hybrids or have to be assumed to be hybrids except in the situation in the previous sentence.

Remember that a species is in many cases an arbitrary assignment by scientists trying to pigeon-hole groups of animal into nice little groups. However, a species will vary depending on the definition you use. Define them one way and they are different species, another and they and others are all one species.

Here is an article (using scientific information, not just hobbyist thoughts) about species, hybrids, and how wrong they really are (or are not).
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Lab_Rat]

Here is an article (using scientific information, not just hobbyist thoughts) about species, hybrids, and how wrong they really are (or are not).
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

That article is just as much hobbyist thoughts as the one I linked to. Throwing in some latin names doesn't make your article more legit than the one written by the other hobbyist. F1 from wild caught parents are easy enough to obtain, as are F2s.

Different species do not cross in the wild, but when we restrict them to an aquarium without ample choice of mates within their own species, we're essentially forcing hybridization.

[kaybee]

Its rather odd that they so freely hybridize in captivity but not in the wild.

Many african cichlid species which are common in the hobby may hybridize quite easily in aquariums but do not come into contact with each other in the wild because most are found only in certain areas or ranges rather than dispersed throughout the entire lake(s).

For example, yellow labs x red zebra's inhabit completely different area's of Lake Malawi (yellow labs are found in certain coastal areas off the country of Malawi, while red zebras are found in limited ranges off the Mozambique coast over 100 miles away). In nature these two species never cross paths.

Yet yellow lab/red zebra hybrids are quite common (maybe even rampant) in the hobby due to intentional and unintentional cross-breeding (solid yellow labs as an example tend to have red zebra lineage).

With that said, many collection points have many species that either inhabit the same area or their areas of origin overlap (photos taken in the lakes often show many types of african cichlid species in a single photo frame). In many instances these species, however, look different from each other. Also similar species may inhabit completely different areas of the lake.

In the wild, 'sexual selection' and competition from males belonging to the same species of females tend to severely curtail hybridization by inherently being more 'attractive' than males of another species. In an aquarium-setting, unbalanced gender ratio's or lack of the opposite gender of a certain species grant the odds of hybridization to occur a huge boost.

[Fishguy2727]

Assuming these are actually different species there is no measurable harm by having hybrids in the hobby (which is already the case).

See those eight citations at the bottom of the article I wrote? Those are all evidence that support what I wrote. It is much more than hobbyist thought. Many of those are primary research articles written by scientists based on scientific studies (or popular articles based on scientifica articles).

I didn't say anything about wild caught fish and their offspring being hard to obtain.

Yes, as far as we know the 'species' in the wild do not hybridize, but they are SOO closely related that this is almost impossible to prove.

African cichlids are probably the one main type of fish I would not argue against hybrids, but others like parrots, convict x texas, etc I am against. But African cichlids, especially mbunas, are SOO closely related that they are not different species depending on how you define a species.

Honestly hybrids is a moral question. Like any other moral you can't (or at least shouldn't) force your opinion on others or expect them to follow the same ideals. Either you agree with it or you don't. Share your opinions and preferences, but to suggest that someone else destroys a healthy animal because certain people define it as a hybrid and think that is wrong, is just wrong (and arguably animal cruelty).

[Lab_Rat]

Honestly hybrids is a moral question. Like any other moral you can't (or at least shouldn't) force your opinion on others or expect them to follow the same ideals. Either you agree with it or you don't. Share your opinions and preferences, but to suggest that someone else destroys a healthy animal because certain people define it as a hybrid and think that is wrong, is just wrong (and arguably animal cruelty).
Like you're trying to do? To disperse hybrids out into the hobby knowingly, passing them off as something else, is wrong.

I simply asked the OP to not disperse the hybrids. Didn't tell him to kill off his fish. I most certainly will not encourage hybridization of cichlids, while you seem to be advocating it.

If hybrids are not a problem in the hobby, why has my fish club banned all hybrids from the auctions?

[Trillianne]

RE: Kaybee

It sound like primarily the issue with hybridization is coming more from a hobbyist that is looking to keep a "zoo in a box" where they are selecting one of a type with no viable mating alternatives.

Which would then lead to the question of have we studied the likelihood of hybrids in a larger enclosure with viable mates of the same type? (Meaning like at a large aquarium with a giant tank of chiclids)

I confess I know little about chiclids as I've not looked at keeping them simply based on the little I've heard on temperament. But from what little I had read it seemed that even when possible mates were available it seemed like their was still a pretty significant increase in the likelihood of a hybrid offspring. Or perhaps I'm mistaken on that?

[Scrup]

Ah the ol hybrid debate! Been a few days...

The biggest qualm I have, is the fact that if you check-
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

there are 335 cichlid species that are threatened in africa alone.
151 species are endangered.
5 are know to be extinct.

And this is just the fish we know about.

There are some fish that ONLY exist in home aquaria.

That being said, I myself keep questionable hybrids (blood parrots). It is a comfort to me that I didn't purchase them via a store, all of them were craigslist or auctioned. I still though have my reservations, but they are happy healthy fish, say what you will about the appearances.

Accidents like this happen, just treat it responsibly.

[CassieLEO]

Very interesting info guys!!!!!

[Fishguy2727]

I am not trying to convince anyone either way. I just don't like seeing threads that only say that it is VERY wrong, which is definitely how this one was going. Anyone reading them only gets that side of the debate with no other information to take into consideration.

What if someone sold them as hybrids? Then they aren't trying to pass them off as anything they are not.

I am not advocating hybrids, I am simly saying that they are not evil little accidents that deserve to be destroyed. They are living creatures who were brought into this world just like all the other pets we love so much. Yet because they are 'hybrids' they deserve to be killed (which has been said in this thread).

I don't know, why has your club banned hybrids?

Please understand that I am not just saying that hybrids are not wrong, that they are okay, or that anyone should have or breed them. Most importantly I want people to understand that a species as we think of it is not how it actually works in nature. Many scientists don't believe in the concept of a species (at least not as we commonly think of them). There are many definitions for a species (we went through at least four in my Evolution class) and which definition is used will vary from kingdom, Phylum, scientist, and the study in question. Obviously there are many, many, many, many examples of two species that are definitely different species. But there are many examples where the two groups of animals in question are not definitely different species, but not definitely the same species.

One definition of a species is that if they can produce fertile offspring they are the same species. Under this definition All the mbunas are the same species and getting into the nitty gritty of exact coloration or distribution in the lake is pointless (especially when each 'species' has so many different colorations, including morphs shared by different specues).

Another definition is that if they can produce fertile offspring in nature they are the same species. Under this definition if any two 'species' have ever created fertile offspring in the wild (even if those offspring were not very successful) they are the same species.

Another definition uses DNA sequencing to find a unique section of DNA to that species. So if you can't find a unique sequence of DNA in one species that is in all the members of that species and not in members of the other species, they are not actually different species.

That is my biggest point, is that the 'species' that people are trying to keep 'pure' are not necessarily even different species.

[kaybee]

Re: Trillianne:

With mbuna's (and most other 'harem-breeder' african cichlids) the presence of multiple females has a strong affect on the matured males (of the same species), to the extent that females of other species are largely ignored.

From the other perspective, females seem to possess an innate attraction to the opposite gender of their species, placing great value on the coloration, pattern and finnage of the males of their species (matured males will flash, shimmy or 'dance' in the vicinity of a potential receptive female, while displaying their full colors and finnage, etc). In this regard colors and patterns (of the males) play a huge visual role.

For an example, female kenyi (light blue with black 'tiger stripes') are inherently attracted to male kenyi's (which are solid yellow-orange sometimes with faint tiger stripes). A male cobalt blue zebra (solid blue) will possess little attractive value to a female kenyi, particularly when a male kenyi is in the tank.

Basically, as long as both genders of each species are in the tank (especially 'harems') the chance of hybridization is reduced, regardless of how large the tank is or how many fish are in the aquarium.

With that said, the following statement will always be true: any male mbuna can theoretically spawn with any female mbuna in the tank.

The likihood of that happening depends on variables.

[Lab_Rat]

What if someone sold them as hybrids? Then they aren't trying to pass them off as anything they are not.

...

I don't know, why has your club banned hybrids?

And then what happens when that person passes them on, but does not disclose the hybrid status? It's best that they don't get out there in the first place.

They have banned hybrids because they are very concerned with preservation of endangered/threatened species. They're the flagship club for the C.A.R.E.S. program. [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] Hybrids are the antithesis of the C.A.R.E.S. program.


Well, if all mbuna are the same species, that makes things a whole lot easier. :rolleyes: But how do you explain different digestive tracts of certain mbuna? Mbuna like Labidochromis caeruleus can tolerate a higher protein diet than many other species which need a low protein diet or risk bloat.

[Brhino]

But how do you explain different digestive tracts of certain mbuna? Mbuna like Labidochromis caeruleus can tolerate a higher protein diet than many other species which need a low protein diet or risk bloat.

I'm not trying to jump directly into this debate because I don't know much about fish biology, but do you know that humans that go vegetarian for long enough literally cannot digest meat? The necessary enzyme is no longer present in their digestive system. If they do eat meat or meat byproducts for some reason, even a small amount can make them very sick. I don't know if it's that relevant, but it seems like an interesting parallel to me.

[Lab_Rat]

I'm not trying to jump directly into this debate because I don't know much about fish biology, but do you know that humans that go vegetarian for long enough literally cannot digest meat? The necessary enzyme is no longer present in their digestive system. If they do eat meat or meat byproducts for some reason, even a small amount can make them very sick. I don't know if it's that relevant, but it seems like an interesting parallel to me.

The digestive tracts are physically different, it's not just lacking an enzyme. Human vegetarians do not have a structurally different digestive tract than those who consume a normal diet.

[kaybee]

Lake Malawi cichlids in particular present a unique situation in that they are relatively 'new' group of fish (in geological terms). The lake itself is relatively young and may have even completely dried up a little over 500,000 years ago.

Based on various mitochondrial DNA studies (pertaining to Lake Malawi cichlids) it's been theorized that many of Lake Malawi cichlids 'species' (mbuna's, haps, peacocks) are extremely (relatively) recent, having undergone rapid speciation and radiation within just the last 20,000 years.

African cichlid speciation in this lake is so rapid that according to one study, on the average one new 'species' appears every 40-odd years. Geological studies indicate the area now known as the Maleri Islands was dry land as recent as 200-300 years ago, and yet the cichlids now found there are not located anywhere else in the lake.

It appears that the cichlids in this lake have radiated so rapidly that there is little change in their DNA, despite their external appearance and specialized adaptions.

As an example, the DNA haplotypes of Genyochromis mento (a cichlid which specializes in eating fins and scales of other fish) were discovered to be identical to those of Metriaclima sp. zebra "Black Dorsal" (an algae grazer). In another example the haplotypes of a Lethrinops gossei (a type of deep water hap) were found to be identical to those of two pseudotropheus species (and they're mbuna's!).

Hybridization among this group of fish is complicated to say the least! :hmm3grin2orange:

[Trillianne]

So many thoughtful posts and lively discussion. I appreciate all the links and info... I feel like I've learned quite a bit about the subject today.

[Lady Hobbs]

If you pay $1000 for what you are told is a pure bred German Shepard, the dog has pups and you began to see some Beagle looking dogs, then you have been spammed and the pups you planned to sell are now worth nothing. If you want to keep a couple pups for yourself as your own pets, fine. But do not then sell them to someone who thinks they are getting a German Shepard.

Knowing you are buying a hybrid is not the same as being sold hybrid under the guise they are pures.

[Fishguy2727]

Dietary differences can occur at a supspecies level too. The differences we cite as differentiating between species of cichlids in Lake Malawi are not that significant. If they were so different then if they created offspring together the offspring should have trouble digesting certain things, not being abel to easily process one thing or another. Yet the offspring are very healthy, just like the adults.

Again, most of the mbunas in the hobby are hybrids or at least have to be assumed to be. So it is not like effectively all mbunas are 'pure bred' and there is a low frequency problem of 'hybrids' slipping in that should be discouraged, most are hybrids. Very few hobbyists buy wild caught cichlids or offsping that are known to be from wild caught parents (or grandparents, etc.).

Bloat isn't caused by too much protein, it is caused by low quality protein that originates from foods not digestible by fish like mbunas (like wheat and potatoes). High quality foods that use protein sources that are digestible by these fish do not cause bloat. All the cichlids I had at the shop, including the ones in the display, got the exact same food. Granted I didn't have scale-eaters or anything that specialized, but given that all these different fish with greatly different natural diets never had any problems on it says that varying natural preferences (effected by geographical distribution, competition, etc.) are not as differentiating as suggested.

[Lab_Rat]

Bloat isn't caused by too much protein, it is caused by low quality protein that originates from foods not digestible by fish like mbunas (like wheat and potatoes). High quality foods that use protein sources that are digestible by these fish do not cause bloat.

Are you suggesting that high quality proteins do not cause bloat? Bloodworms/glassworms/other inverts are high quality proteins, but there is absolutely no way I'd feed most mbuna those foods. I would feed the omnivorous ones (like Labidochromis caeruleus) these foods though. Conversely, I have fed my mbuna sweet potato and white potato without a single problem.

[kaybee]

I'm not sure if "most" african cichlids are hybrids, though I agree they're prevelant in the hobby ('apparent' hybrids that, is).

It's nearly assured that there will be a one to a few hybrids in the typical franchised LFS's (and to the experienced-eye most hybrids stand out). I rarely see a mixed or assorted african cichlid tank containing mostly hybrids (with the exception of the occasional "Electric yellow lab" tank in which nearly all the specimens evidently look 50% m. estherae).

From the visual and physical-characteristics stand point, what makes a hybrid a hybrid?

If a group of Cynotilapia afra 'Jalo Reef' are purchased from an LFS and they look exactly how C. afra 'Jalo Reef''s are supposed to look and produce offspring with the same characteristics, and the original group aren't wild caught or F1/F2's why should they be assumed to be potential hybrids?

Yellow lab X Colbalt Blue Zebra's crosses which walker has are physically obvious hybids and won't pass as either parent species. If the mbuna at the LFS looks exactly like a kenyi or red zebra or socolofi why should it be assumed to be a hybrid?

Because most hybrids are easily identified, the risk of an experienced hobbyist inadvertently selecting hybrids is higher if the specimens are hybrids of very similar species (m. johanni x m. interruptus) or a. calvus x a. compressiceps, or, worse, cross-variants of the same species (moba frontosas x mpimbwe frontosa's).

[Fishguy2727]

I feed NLS Thera+A, which is 38% protein, protein that is easily digested by mbunas. I have fed them this diet exclusively for years and never had a case of bloat. If other foods are causing bloat they are not easily digestible enough for mbunas to eat and should not be fed.

[CassieLEO]

Is this bloat the same bloat that dogs and horses can get?

[kaybee]

Bloat can be caused by the wrong type or form of protein (from the perspective of what the fish is naturally adapted to processing).

Mysis shrimp (a quality high protein source) is great for carnivorous african cichlids such as frontosa's or lake malawi hap species. If I fed my demasoni's or tropheus mysis shrimp 4x a week they'd contract the bloat within a month. With that said, high protein isn't the sole bloat trigger (stressors and other factors can lead to the bloat as well).

Additionally if the protein is the the ideal form it can be consumed with little to no risk of the bloat. As an example I'd never feed my mbuna's krill or herring in their natural form but those two ingredients are among the primary ingredients in NLS Cichlid formula which I use as a near-staple for my demasoni's and tropheus.

[Lab_Rat]

I feed NLS Thera+A, which is 38% protein, protein that is easily digested by mbunas. I have fed them this diet exclusively for years and never had a case of bloat. If other foods are causing bloat they are not easily digestible enough for mbunas to eat and should not be fed.
How did I know this would turn into a sales pitch for NLS? :rolleyes: Do you get a commission each time you mention their products?

Pretty much any quality brand with less than 42% protein should be good for mbuna. What I said was that omnivorous species like Labidochromis caeruleus can handle higher protein than Pseudotropheus, Metriaclima, Melanochromis species can. L. caeruleus can handle blood worms due to their different GI tract. Very different characteristic, yet above you're trying to make mbuna out to be the same species.

[Fishguy2727]

Not selling anything, and I am tired of people making a deal out of it every time a mention the brand name of something I like and recommend. It is either allowed on the forum or it is not. I mention such brands when relevant, that is it. If this is not allowed please let me know.

I am sorry that the people who love this forum long enough to get to know each other may notice certain things just because they have seen them before, it is not meant to be offensive or a 'sales pitch'.

"yet above you're trying to make mbuna out to be the same species."
'bout time you caught up to what I am saying...

[Lab_Rat]

"yet above you're trying to make mbuna out to be the same species."
'bout time you caught up to what I am saying...

The different digestive tracts screams different species...you've yet to explain that, instead getting off on a tangent about specific foods that are fine for all mbuna.

[Fishguy2727]

The point is that if their digestive systems are so different, how can they all take the EXACT same food? Obviously these slight variations in dentition, digestive tracts, etc. are not really excluding each other from the other's diet.

Can you elaborate on the ACTUAL differences in their digestive systems? Do they have extra or missing parts to their digestive systems? Are certain parts significantly larger/longer or smaller/shorter than another species'? You have stated that they are different based on what they eat, not on any actual parts. Please elaborate so we can better understand what you are talking about.

[kingkarter]

Since it seems you do not understand why I said what I said, here is an excellent article on the problem with hybrids that was posted on another site: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

I encourage you to read it to gain insight as to why hybrids are detrimental to the hobby.


Good article lab rat it exsplains alot. Thanks for posting it.

[Lab_Rat]

Sorry, don't have any diagrams handy, but since you're a biologist I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

Just to break it down for you, though this is not specific for mbuna: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]


From MalawiMayhem on L. caeruleus at [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
Diet in the wild consists of small invertebrates, insects, crustaceans.
From MalawiMayhem on M. callainos at [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
Diet in the wild consists of algae scraped of the rocks in addition to plankton collected in the water column.

Two different species with VERY different diets. Sure you can feed a lower protein to L. caeruleus and they'll do fine, but it's not mimicking their natural diet. It's safer for the herbivorous mbuna to feed a diet low in protein and the omnivorous mbuna can be ok, versus feeding a diet mimicking the natural diet of the omnivorous mbuna.

[Fishguy2727]

So...absolutely nothing to support your idea that the actual structure of the digestive system is different at all, just that in nature they have very different diets. Yet you were asking me to disprove your idea that their digestive systems are structurally different? This variation in diet could be from enzymes alone, something you stated was not the case when vegetarian humans were mentioned earlier.

I am honestly interested if anyone has any information on the digestive systems of different types of mbunas are actually any different. If anyone has any information please chime in.

[Lab_Rat]

So...absolutely nothing to support your idea that the actual structure of the digestive system is different at all, just that in nature they have very different diets. Yet you were asking me to disprove your idea that their digestive systems are structurally different? This variation in diet could be from enzymes alone, something you stated was not the case when vegetarian humans were mentioned earlier.

I am honestly interested if anyone has any information on the digestive systems of different types of mbunas are actually any different. If anyone has any information please chime in.

I guess you missed this link: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

It breaks down the difference between omnivores, carnivores, and herbivores pretty clearly. It's for fish in general, not specific to mbuna, but should give you a good idea of the differences.

[Fishguy2727]

I am very familiar with the differences in diet of different types of animals and the types of differences in their digestive systems. However, you stated that mbunas of different diets have structurally different digestive systems, asked others to disprove this, and yet haven't provided a single piece of evidence to support your original statement. I am asking what you based your statement on when you stated that they have structurally different digestive systems. Please do so or understand why some people feel that mbunas are not as different as some people think.

[Lab_Rat]

The different mbuna are classified differently in regards to diet. Are you denying that L. caeruleus are omnivores? And that many others are herbivores?

I am not going to go buy some fish to dissect to take pictures for you. I would hope that as a self proclaimed biologist you would understand the differences between herbivores and omnivores. Are you saying there is no difference in the digestive tracts of herbivores and omnivores?

[Lab_Rat]

Here ya go: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Abstract:
Lenth and coiling patterns of the gastrointestinal tract of a group of rock-dwelling cichlid fishes (the 'mbuna') from Lake Malawi, Africa are reported in this study. In the 16 species of primarily herbivorous fish examined, diet and habitat correlated with gut length. Species feeding primarily on diatoms in sediment-rich environments have longer intestines than those feeding on more animal material or in sediment-free environments. The coiling pattern of the gastrointestinal tract is equivalent for all species and does not appear to be taxonomically useful within the group. If intestine length is responsive, in either ecological or evolutionary time scales, to changes in diet, this permits flexibility in the range of dietary items that a particular individual or lineage may consume. Structural specializations, such as intestine morphology, promoting differential resource utilization characterize the adaptive radiation of the family Cichlidae and facilitate ecological coexistence in these high diversity assemblages.
That's just the abstract, I don't feel like paying $35 for the full article, but you're welcome to do so.

[Fishguy2727]

"The different mbuna are classified differently in regards to diet. Are you denying that L. caeruleus are omnivores? And that many others are herbivores?"
Where did I even come close to this?

"Are you saying there is no difference in the digestive tracts of herbivores and omnivores?"
Where did I even come close to this either?

Please, rather than twisting my words into something you can argue try to understand that mbunas are not as different as many people think. No one said their diets don't vary.

Your article doesn't specify how much they vary. This would be important. What 16 species?

This thread is about hybrids. You either agree with them or don't. I don't have an issue with a beautiful, healthy animal. I definitely don't think they should be destroyed because we arbitrarily decided they are wrong. In my opinion that is animal cruelty. Culling deformed animals is one thing, but suggesting that perfectly healthy and enjoyable animals are destroyed because other people decided so is just wrong.

This same way of thinking that one thing is 'pure' and another is indesirable is exactly the mindset that produces inbred dogs with a laundry list of genetic problems while healthier mutts are killed in shelters.

In my opinion there are not nearly as many species of mbunas as is usually listed. The differences between most of them is not significant enough to differentiate all of them from eachother on a species level.

[Lab_Rat]

Please, rather than twisting my words into something you can argue try to understand that mbunas are not as different as many people think. No one said their diets don't vary.
You're the one saying that mbuna may not be different species. I am not twisting your words, you're doing a fine job of that yourself.


Your article doesn't specify how much they vary. This would be important. What 16 species?
I would love to know this information as well. Please feel free to drop the $35 for the article and share the specifics of the manuscript with everyone. I do not have an extra $35 sitting around to purchase the paper with.


This thread is about hybrids. You either agree with them or don't. I don't have an issue with a beautiful, healthy animal. I definitely don't think they should be destroyed because we arbitrarily decided they are wrong. In my opinion that is animal cruelty. Culling deformed animals is one thing, but suggesting that perfectly healthy and enjoyable animals are destroyed because other people decided so is just wrong.
Again, I repeat what I said earlier, I did not ask the OP to destroy his hybrids. I simply asked him not to distribute them.

Culling is animal cruelty? So using fish as feeders is animal cruelty? Stripping a female holding likely hybrid fry and not putting the eggs in a tumbler to develop, etc, is animal cruelty? If I were to suggest that someone torture a hybrid, to flush it down the toilet alive, to neglect it, then you may have an argument for cruelty. To suggest the fertilized eggs should be destroyed is not animal cruelty.


This same way of thinking that one thing is 'pure' and another is indesirable is exactly the mindset that produces inbred dogs with a laundry list of genetic problems while healthier mutts are killed in shelters.
That statement reeks of BS. Canis lupis familiaris are all the same species, no matter what the breed. It is ignorant to compare dog breeds crossing to hybridization of fish across species or genera. I am not a fan of inbred dogs and I fully support adopting mutts (all of my mammals are shelter animals or strays). I am an advocate for preservation of endangered/vulnerable species. Do you not care if many of these species go extinct (huge problem in the Lake Victoria region)?


In my opinion there are not nearly as many species of mbunas as is usually listed. The differences between most of them is not significant enough to differentiate all of them from eachother on a species level. Do you have a PhD in ichthyology? Have you published in peer reviewed journals? Are all these scientists who have classified mbuna as different species ignorant or something?

[Fishguy2727]

And that ends all the productive discussion, and therefore my participation.

[Lab_Rat]

Me asking your credentials ends the discussion? If you did your PhD thesis on speciation of mbuna in Lake Malawi or lack thereof I'd certainly like to know it. That would add a lot of credibility to your statements and change what is just your opinion into expert opinion. Wouldn't make it fact, but I'm not about to throw out the whole classification system of malawi cichlids created by ichthyologists based on the opinion of someone with a B.S. degree. :22:

[Scrup]

Way off topic, but hey why not. Mbuna is not a scientific classification. It is a common name for a fish that exhibit similar tendencies, much like the term minnow, or loach, or catfish.

It is a general classification, separate from taxonomy. Mbuna are not all one species.

In my opinion there are not nearly as many species of mbunas as is usually listed. The differences between most of them is not significant enough to differentiate all of them from eachother on a species level.

This is an obtuse statement from someone claiming to be wise on the subject. Species is more advanced than simply what can mate with what.

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To the OP, most of us are firmly stating, please be responsible with the fry.

[CassieLEO]

Whoa!!!! ***SCREECH*** So like, hybrids arent a good idea I take it? ;) lol!!!

[Lady Hobbs]

I "believe" what they are saying, if you have and enjoy your hybrids, fine. But do not sell them or give to stores, etc. Cull what you do not want but don't introduce them into the market.

[CassieLEO]

LOL! Gotcha :D
When I used to sell African Violets on EBAY, I had ot be careful of the same thing...

[fishguy66]

Just a question.........why are African cichilds being discussed on a thread that's supposed to be about Central & N/A cichilds?

[Lab_Rat]

Just a question.........why are African cichilds being discussed on a thread that's supposed to be about Central & N/A cichilds?
The thread is titled "African Cichlid Hybrids". It was posted in the incorrect section by the OP.

[fishguy66]

The thread is titled "African Cichlid Hybrids". It was posted in the incorrect section by the OP.
OK. Just wondering.