Don't know what is going on...

[Precursor]

Me and the wife decided to get a beta. We bought a starter kit that came with bottom rocks, oxygenater, fake plant. It has a lid with a feeding slot and a hinged top that houses the lamp.

We got beta pellets for food, beta water conditioner and a sucker fish.

We got everything set up and running and ran the aquarium fish free to give the water time to warm up and for the conditioner to become evenly dispersed. Everything was good for a few days then the sucker fish turned up dead one morning. I removed the sucker fish (which seemed half rot or at least picked at) then placed the beta into a temp container while I cleaned the tank. Boy did it ever need cleaning, some sucker fish...

However ever since then the beta has been having problems. It's partially on its side and doesn't swim around. It doesn't eat. The only things that seem out of place on the fish itself is I can see one of the gills on each side out beyond the outer cover.

I have no idea what is going on or what to do. I've read the following...

http://www.betafacts.com/betafishdisease.php

...and it doesn't seem to fall into any of these but I did add a few grains of salt.

Oh and when the beta first started doing this I moved him back into the small container and he seemed to recover. I then sent him back into the aquarium and he reverted back to the state again, so he is back into the small container but this time he isn't recovering like last time...

[Rue]

...your aquarium water is toxic and you're poisoning your fish...

Other than that, I'd need more info. to pin down what's going on.

How many gallons is the tank?
Where is it situated in the house?
Water Temp?
Water Parametres?
Water treatment?

[Precursor]

How so? The Beta Water conditioner is supposed to make tap water safe. I followed the instructions on the bottle strictly. I have a thermometer and a pH tester in the water now and I am good to go for both. The water is a little cool (although it is in the green) but that should only result in a slightly slower metabolism. Also with the sucker fish gone I went with a waste eliminator product.

He is back in the aquarium and appears to be normal again. I think I may have over fed him.

[Rue]

Tap Water Conditioner removes chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals...but some types won't remove all three...read the label carefully.

Fish produce wastes. Among those is ammonia. Ammonia is very toxic. Fish swimming in water high in ammonias will burn their skin and eventually suffer other symptoms...and die. You want your ammonia levels to be 0 ppm. The two other toxic by-products of ammonia break-down (if you have anything in your tank to begin that essential part of cycling) are nitrites and nitrates. Nitrates are also very toxic...keep levels at 0 ppm. Nitrate are somewhat less toxic...try to maintain > 20 ppm.

You had 2 fish in what I assume is a very small amount of water...you didn't say for certain...both fish would've produced waste ammonia...which likely killed the one fish and is killing the betta.

There's no one fish called a 'sucker fish'...so I'm not sure what species you had...but none that I can think that might fall under that heading are suitable for micro-tanks.

[Precursor]

The water treatment is Betta Plus Bowl Conditioner which says that it simply makes tap water safe. It does all three of those that you mention.

I tested the ammonia and .2 which is said to be safe and expected for a new tank. That as the necessary bacteria develop, the level will drop.

The tank I got closely resembles this 6 gallon in size...

http://i.walmart.com/i/p/00/47/43/19/01/0047431901506_500X500.jpg

The "sucker" fish is an algae eater or something similar. Suppose to help keep the tank clean or so I thought.

So ammonia is good, pH is good, temp is good. It was fine but in the time it took to go get the ammonia tester and come back it is back on the bottom, this time completely vertical nose down but still breathing normally (not slow or erratic).

[Lady Hobbs]

Fish give off ammonia from their gills, their waste and the food that floats to the bottom of the tank. Within days, the water become toxic due to the rise in ammonia. Small tanks like that get very toxic due to such a small supply of water and you have to change out water daily to keep those levels of ammonia down.

Sucker fish are also not for new tanks. They have nothing to eat in new tanks because no algae has had time to grow and that's what they eat.

If your Betta dies, and I believe he will, do a fishless cycle the next time and when your tank is cycled you can add another. You can read all about fishless cycling in Tips for Newbies: Cycling in the set up thread.

[dev]

I agree on the ammonia theory. 0.2 is the limit before you define the water as toxic, and is not to be expected in any tank with fish in it.

Feeding too much (and/or not changing enough water) is likely to be the cause of the ammonia concentration.

Change half of the water in the tank every day until ammonia is stable at 0.0. (Should require 2 or 3 water changes)

Without a filter for the bacteria to develop in, the tank will not really be able to keep stable water values and need fresh water quite often, preferrably every day. I'd probably change about 20% every day or at least every other day.

You don't really need the oxygenator for betta (unless it has a filter attached?), these fish are suited to low oxygen conditions and have a special organ they can breed air with (labyrinth).

As for the algae eater, I can't really think of one that is suitable for a 6 G tank :/

Good luck saving your betta!

[Precursor]

Not what the papers that came with the tester say. 1.2 is the defining level where 0.2 is "acceptable". Though I should have been more clear before, the .2 is .2 mg/L.

I've had the fish for only a few days (4 or 5) and have changed the water once so far (2 days ago). Time for another.

I've done some digging and what the beta appears to be doing is simply trying to bury his head. I have read that this is stress related. So it could be that he is simply stressed out.

[dev]

Not what the papers that came with the tester say. 1.2 is the defining level where 0.2 is "acceptable". Though I should have been more clear before, the .2 is .2 mg/L.


0.2 mg/L ammonia is not acceptable in my book. What tester is this? The toxicity of the measured ammonia is also dependant on the pH. The test measuers the combined content of ammonia and ammonium. At higher pH levels more of the waste exists as ammonia, making the water more toxic than with lower pH levels.

I always go for no measurable ammonia or nitrites, which really doesnt take much of an effort in my tanks.

Getting a small $5 air driven filter to plug on your aerator might help with this, allowing for smaller water changes.



I've had the fish for only a few days (4 or 5) and have changed the water once so far (2 days ago). Time for another.

Sounds good, keep up the good work :D



I've done some digging and what the beta appears to be doing is simply trying to bury his head. I have read that this is stress related. So it could be that he is simply stressed out.

I couldnt say without actually looking at the fish, but yes the bettas are known to do a few strange things from time to time. Wrong water values is one of many things that can cause stress. Prolonged stress causes death.

[Drumachine09]

Not what the papers that came with the tester say. 1.2 is the defining level where 0.2 is "acceptable". Though I should have been more clear before, the .2 is .2 mg/L.

I've had the fish for only a few days (4 or 5) and have changed the water once so far (2 days ago). Time for another.

I've done some digging and what the beta appears to be doing is simply trying to bury his head. I have read that this is stress related. So it could be that he is simply stressed out.



No, .2 is NOT acceptable. ANY amount of ammonia is bad for fish.

YOU NEED TO CYCLE YOUR TANK. End of story.

[cocoa_pleco]

even a TAD of ammonia burns the fishes gills. what ammonia does is it depletes he fishes oxygen. just like humans with ammonia, too much makes you lose oxygen in your system and you die. even .02 will have long-term effects

[dev]

I'm glad we all agree on the ammonia.

However, there is very little point in cycling a tank that has no filter to cycle, you won't get any significant amount of usefull bacteria in there no matter how long you wait. I suggest you just keep changing water.

[cocoa_pleco]

agreed. in small tanks with no filters, you have to do weekly water changes, and all the bacteria get lost. you just have to do constant water changes to make sure no ammonia even comes

[Precursor]

http://www.hagen.com/canada/english/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=124&PROD_ID=01078200010101

"Generally, the amount of ammonia should not exceed 1.2 mg/L. Levels up to 1.2 mg/L in very alkaline water (above 8.0 pH) are quite toxic to aquatic organisms."

The pH is between 6.6 and 7.0. A reading of .2 mg/L in water with such a pH is well within the green for toxicity levels.

The ammonia can exist as NH3 (toxic gas) or NH4+ (much less toxic ionic ammonium). The pH determines the ratio.

I'll have have to get a filter. I'll do that today.

[Precursor]

Tested the water before the change and 0 mg/L. Now the water has been changed it still reads 0 mg/L (one would hope). pH is good and temp is good.

Now its just a matter of seeing what the day will bring...

[Lady Hobbs]

I agree you definately need a filter. I do water changes weekly even with filters (50%) and without one in a small tank, they are extremely important.

[Precursor]

What I don't get is I know people that keep betas in the small container they come in. All they do is change the water and put in a few drops of conditioner and they've had no problems.

I noticed something else and it seems to be fin rot though this has been something he has had from the store. He hasn't recovered any and is on his side at the bottom not moving other than breathing. He made an attempt at eating a bit (I have 1 small pellet in there). I just think he had problems from the get go. An ill fish from the store, I did get him from Walmart after all.

[SkarloeysMom]

Its good that you're doing some research. You're doing what I did when I started which is learning the hard way. Cycling your betta will cause him LOTS of stress and if he survives he may come down with any number of illnesses so you'll need to watch him very carefully and be ready to treat him quickly if he starts getting sick.

If you can take him back to the LFS while you do a fishless cycle on your tank it will be better all the way around. If you can't return him and have a large container like a 1/2g or 1g jar perhaps you could keep him in the jar in declorinated water while you cycle your tank. You'd need to change the jar water every couple days at least to make sure its clean. This is the way their kept at the store before you buy them and I think it would be better than making him endure a cycling tank if you are unable to return him. Make sure when you feed him to drop the pellets in one at a time and let him eat each one before dropping another. That prevents food waste. He only needs to eat about 3-4 pellets a day. Overfeeding can be deadly to Bettas so don't let his little food dance make you think he's starving because he's not. His stomach is the size of his EYE!

I know Bettas in the wild live in stagnant pools of water but they really do appreciate nice, filtered water to live it. I'm glad you've decided to get him a filter.:thumb:

[SkarloeysMom]

What I don't get is I know people that keep betas in the small container they come in. All they do is change the water and put in a few drops of conditioner and they've had no problems.


They can be kept like this but I can tell you they will suffer. Its good that you have a 6g tank but you don't want to have to do a 100% change of water every few days to keep from having to cycle the tank. A 6g can be cycled and the fish will be happier in a bigger, cycled tank. Your early efforts will be rewarded by a happy, beautiful fish who will thrive in a good environment.

[SkarloeysMom]

I noticed something else and it seems to be fin rot though this has been something he has had from the store. He hasn't recovered any and is on his side at the bottom not moving other than breathing. He made an attempt at eating a bit (I have 1 small pellet in there). I just think he had problems from the get go. An ill fish from the store, I did get him from Walmart after all.

Sounds bad...perhaps he was sick from the store. I wouldn't doubt it if you got him at Walmart. I remember seeing Bettas at our Walmart before they quit selling fish that looks so sick and sad. I never would have bought one. I'm so glad they quit selling fish. Does your Walmart have return policy for fish? If he was sick from the store perhaps you should cut our losses and return him.

[troy]

The Walmart I go to has quit selling fish. Most of the tanks were in horrible, except for a few. I rarely got any fish there, but my brothers did. I've lost feeder goldfish from there and my brother lost 2 dwarf gouramis to infection.

[wolf_eyes]

What I don't get is I know people that keep betas in the small container they come in. All they do is change the water and put in a few drops of conditioner and they've had no problems.


Those betta's only last a short ammount of time. I work at a vet's office and the technicians were amazed when a girl's betta lived for a year in a 1 gallon with a guppy. Both fish should have lived for at least 2 if not 3 years(some bettas even for 8 years). They kept saying "wow that's so long, my betta only lived for a few months!" I wanted to say something but I work with the people....