Where's the culture?

[ChurchofAdam]

Does more biomass reside in the substrate or filter media? My 20g high has a relatively small footprint (24x12) and the filter is a penguin 150 (biowheel + 2 cartridges). I would have assumed the filter media... (more mass transfer, comparable surface area, less UV) any thoughts?

[Algenco]

The majority will be in the filter

[Drumachine09]

The majority will be in the filter

Correction. A lot will be in the filter. Alot will be in the gravel, alot will be on decor, and alot will be on the glass.

[Algenco]

Correction. A lot will be in the filter. Alot will be in the gravel, alot will be on decor, and alot will be on the glass.



Ok, Set up another tank of the same size with new gravel,etc

Place the filter from the established tank on the the new one.

Established tank gets a new identical filter.

Which if either would have problems with the same bio-load..

The bacteria are present on all surfaces. but since all of the available food(ammonia,nitrites) pass through the filter, it will have the most bacteria,it should also have the most surface area for the bacteria to grow on

As an example, 250 gr ceramic rings has approximately 170 sq ft of surface area

[Drumachine09]

Ok, Set up another tank of the same size with new gravel,etc

Place the filter from the established tank on the the new one.

Established tank gets a new identical filter.

Which if either would have problems with the same bio-load..

The bacteria are present on all surfaces. but since all of the available food(ammonia,nitrites) pass through the filter, it will have the most bacteria,it should also have the most surface area for the bacteria to grow on

As an example, 250 gr ceramic rings has approximately 170 sq ft of surface area


And you can do that EXACT same thing with the gravel.

[Fishguy2727]

The biomass is the fish plus the food, not the nitrifying bacteria.

The nitrifying bacteria is mainly in the filter, especially with Biowheels. Cycling a new tank with an established tank is done much more efficiently and effectively with filter media than with substrate. Nitrifying bacteria are going to live in the ideal temp, and where the most food and oxygen is present. Since our tanks are all one temp throughout the tank, that won't affect their distribution. The most oxygen, especially with Biowheels, is in the filter media. The most food will be present in areas of good circulation and flow, which is in the filter. In the substrate there is low flow and oxygen. There will be some nitrifying bacteria in the substrate, some on the decor and glass, but most will be in the filter media. I have moved entire setups (all the fish) from one tank to another and moved the filters along with them without moving any substrate, and had absolutely no effect on the balance of the tank (balance between bioload and nitrifying bacteria). This shows that there was an insignificant amount of nitrifying bacteria in the substrate.

[Drumachine09]

This shows that there was an insignificant amount of nitrifying bacteria in the substrate.



Well, thats one experiance. However, i have cycled a tank using the gravel alone.

[Fishguy2727]

Gravel can be used to seed a new tank, without a doubt. But how many tanks have been moved, where all the fish were moved, the gravel was moved, and the filter media was not, yet the tank had no imbalance? There is simply not ENOUGH nitrifying bacteria in the substrate to support the entire system. It is in the filter media. I did not hesitate to move my discus, when I moved the filters with them. But I would not dream of doing that by just moving the gravel and not the filters, it would lead to catastrophe. There is nitrifying bacteria in the gravel, but gravel is simply not the ideal environment for nitrifying bacteria, so it automatically colonizes the areas most fulfilling its needs, which is not the gravel.

And this is not just an isolated incident, this is how I do it all the time. I used to think it was mainly in the gravel, but after repeatedly seeing results that did not support that (seeding new tanks, just to have them re-cycle, just like when you clean a tank too much) I stopped believing that. And if there was so much in the gravel, then cleaning all the filter media at the same time would not be such an issue, yet if you clean all the filter media at the same time you can almost guarantee that your tank will re-cycle. But you can clean all the gravel and even change it out entirely without any problems or effect to the biological filtration.

[Drumachine09]

Gravel can be used to seed a new tank, without a doubt. But how many tanks have been moved, where all the fish were moved, the gravel was moved, and the filter media was not, yet the tank had no imbalance? There is simply not ENOUGH nitrifying bacteria in the substrate to support the entire system. It is in the filter media. I did not hesitate to move my discus, when I moved the filters with them. But I would not dream of doing that by just moving the gravel and not the filters, it would lead to catastrophe. There is nitrifying bacteria in the gravel, but gravel is simply not the ideal environment for nitrifying bacteria, so it automatically colonizes the areas most fulfilling its needs, which is not the gravel.


Hmmm valid point. So, youre saying, dont even bother to move the gravel, and just move the filter when seeding a new tank?