How vulnerable are Dwarf Gourami's to high PH levels

[chval]

In January I set up a 55 gallon tank equipped with a Penguin 350, heater & light. In it I have 2 - black skirt tetras, 3 - phantom tetras, 6 - guppies, 2 - cory cats, 1 - pleco & 2 - chinese algae (I think).

Here's my problem. On June 11th I brought home two Powder Blue Dwarf Gourami's. I bought them in a town 125 miles away from home. They packaged each fish separate since I had a two hour drive home. Once I got home, I floated the bags to equalize the temperatures and then I opened the bags and started adding some of my tank water to each bag. One fish died within 3 hours and the other within 24. I had done a partial water change two days prior to this and when the first fish started acting weird I checked my water parameters (just in case) and my ammonia was not zero but may have been closer to 5(or whatever the next color was) so I decided to do another partial change. Whenever I do a water change, I add stress coat & stress zyme. I had decided that these fish had become stressed on the two- hour ride home or else it had to do with my water PH.

My LFS uses the exact same water source that I do and they do not adjust for PH. So I decided to check them out and lo and behold they had the same gourami's so last Monday (18th) I brought home two more. They seemed to be fine. One kind of hid a lot of the time but the other was swimming around and eating fine. Well, yesterday I pulled out the one that hid and this morning I pulled out the other one. Now I'm ready to pull out my hair!

So at noon today I test the parameters on my tank and these are the readings: (API Freshwater Master Test Kit)

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
PH - 8.2

I know that there are ways to adjust the water PH but is there a form of neutralizerthat you can add as I am doing a water change with my Python system.

Do you think the PH is the problem?

Sure could use some good advice.

Thanks,

Connie H

[rollie]

a ph of 8.2 is too high for any of them fish. most tetras like a ph of 6.2 to 6.8 or there about. cichlids would like your ph.
i am not sure off hand what dwarf gourami like, but it way to high for them.

[rollie]

ps. what is your ph levels as it come from the tap??

[RobbieG]

If the store has the same PH as you do (same water source) there should be no problems as far as that goes.

I would be very concerned with the ammonia - i would never expect to see an ammonia reading of 5 in a cycled tank. You may have had a fish die or a waste buildup in a hidey hole or something.

I would check the tank real well and monitor it for a bit to be sure that it is stable before

[Lady Hobbs]

Is your pH that high coming right from the tap? That's good pH for cichlids (some) but many community fish may have a hard time in it. What kind of substract are you using? Check your pH right from the tap and see what you get?

[rollie]

if her ammonia levels was 5, then all of her fish would die, so i do not think that is the problem

[Lady Hobbs]

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
PH - 8.2

She wrote this.

OK. Read again and I see she wrote ammonia had been up one level. One level on my tester is .25 not 5. That's at the top of the scale.

[rollie]

dwarf gourami like a ph of 6.5 to 7.5 .

this is what gina sandford say in her fish book. she had wrote alot of books on fish.

[kimmers318]

Yes, the Ph is high for gourami, but most fish can and do adjust to the water itself, and trying to lower the ph will cause you more headaches in the long run as you usually end up with your ph swinging around like crazy.
If you saw an ammonia reading on a 6 month old tank there is a problem there. You need to correct that problem before you go any further. Your stocking levels seem to be okay, other than the possibility that the plecos are huge....how big are they? Plecos are waste machines and will contribute heavily to the bioload.
Were any of these fish just recently added to your tank just before the gourami? Although adding a few fish to a large tank should not adversely affect your cycle, it is possible.
Water changes will get rid of/dilute the ammonia levels at the time, but if you saw ammonia, for some reason there is not enough ammonia eating bacteria in your tank. Taking it out with water changes will help for the time being, but you still need to build your bacterial levels up so you don't see ammonia readings.
I agree with Hobbs.....on my test kit a reading of 5 is wayyyyy high! .25 is the first reading above zero....is it possible you were actually seeing .50?
And I wonder about a zero nitrate reading.....that is seldom seen outside of a brand new tank that has not cycled yet. Did you do a major cleaning of all of your tank decor and such when you did water changes? Alot of your bacteria could have been destroyed like that, but with your filter having 2 biowheels (am I correct?) it should be able to catch right up without you seeing any traceable amounts of ammonia.
A high ph will not kill a fish immediately unless you throw it in and shock it, you will notice the effects over time if it is an issue.

[rollie]

yes, the hight ph can take time to kill fish, but if you shock it, it will die fast.
it is possible the ph went up over time and the other fish slowly got used to it. this is why i would like to know what her ph is straight from the tap.

[Faith_at_Large]

I put two flame Dwarf Gouramis (m and f) in my work tank and the pH is always above 8.0, and they seem to be fine so far. The male is hiding a bit, but the female is active and enjoying her surroundings. They came from a local pet store with similar pH so this does not seem to be an issue.

[chval]

I did some water testing this morning and these are the results:

Straight from the tap:
Ammonia – 1
Nitrite – 0
Nitrate – 0
PH – 8.8

Tank readings:
Ammonia - .25 - will be doing a partial water change
Nitrite – 0
Nitrate – 5
PH – 8.0

I treat my tank with Stress Coat & Stress Zyme.

When I wrote my original message, I was at work and didn’t remember the number order on the tests. The ammonia was 0 to .25 – I was just guessing the number in the first message. My pleco is about 2 1/2” long. No I haven’t taken any of my rocks (substrate) or decorations out for cleaning – so that’s not the problem. Yes, I have two bio-wheels.

Connie

[rollie]

the ammonia levels of .25 is nothing to bad. but i would keep an eye on it.
your ph is another things. if i put fish in water with a ph of 8.8, they would die , very fast.

the water in your tank have the ph of 8.0 you say, that is still to high. if i was you i would bring the ph down. you say the pet shop used the same water, they may be bringing the ph down, by adding something to it.

if my ph goes to high , i used pure apple cider vingar to bring it back down.
but do not used pure apple cider vinger, unless you really know what you are doing.
plus alot of peoples seem to find it hard to keep dwarf gourami alive.

[Lady Hobbs]

I did some water testing this morning and these are the results:

Straight from the tap:
Ammonia – 1
Nitrite – 0
Nitrate – 0
PH – 8.8

Tank readings:
Ammonia - .25 - will be doing a partial water change
Nitrite – 0
Nitrate – 5
PH – 8.0

I treat my tank with Stress Coat & Stress Zyme.

When I wrote my original message, I was at work and didn’t remember the number order on the tests. The ammonia was 0 to .25 – I was just guessing the number in the first message. My pleco is about 2 1/2” long. No I haven’t taken any of my rocks (substrate) or decorations out for cleaning – so that’s not the problem. Yes, I have two bio-wheels.

Connie

Ouch! Your tap water comes out at 8.8. That's very high. Your nitrates are perfect.

Not long ago I was reading that many of the city water plants are now treating their water with ammonia rather than chloramine because ammonia stays in the water longer and is a better disinfectant. This is giving them instant ammonia. Your bioload will decrease this ammonia rather quickly but perhaps you might want to treat the water before it goes in the tank. I can think of no way to reduce your pH other than an RO water system for your tap water.

You need not do water changes with your ammonia reading at .25 but constantly having ammonia in the fish water will eventually cause them a weakened immune system and eventually illness. Altho it's a low amount, having ammonia constantly will be there undoing. Your bioload should be able to eat up that ammonia quickly however. Doing water changes will not help with the ammonia level if you are only adding more ammonia.

Gourami's are a fish that seem to be more intolerant of high ammonia or nitrites. They're the only fish I lost after setting up a new tank some time ago.

I don't like using anything other than just dechlorinator in my water but sometime drastic measures need to be taken for drastic situations. Perhaps an ammonia reducer might be needed if the ammonia doesn't disappear.

Over feeding and food laying on the bottom will also spike your ammonia readings.

Good luck.

[RobbieG]

I have had very good luck with Amquel. It neutralizes the ammonia without removing it so that it doesn't mess with your cycle.