Another issue with one of my pond snails...

[mermaidwannabe]

This is one of my two large ones. For several months, I have noticed the top two tiers of the spiral on its shell has been encrusted with something white, and has deteriorated. Despite this, the snail has remained alive and, after my tank cycled, became quite active. Ever since this last gravel vacumming I did, this snail, (and my others which don't have any shell problems), has remained inactive and has been sitting in my sink in some water for the last several days, motionless.

What could be causing the white encrustation on the top of its shell, and causing it to gradually erode away? And do pond snails go dormant for periods of time where they seal up inside their shells and just don't come out, or could this one be dying?

I'm reluctant to add calcium to the water, as it could raise my pH, which is now at a good level for most community fish. Besides, the tablet food I offer the bottom feeders does contain some calcium.

I was thinking the white stuff might be mineral deposits from our well water, but am not sure.

-- mermaidwannabe

[VoidParadigm]

Are the white spots actually growing up and outward from the shell, or is it just white where the shell has worn away?

To me it just sounds like calcium deficiency. You could try adding a calcium tablet once a week (won't hurt the pH too much if you keep up with regular waterchanges), or if you have a lot of pond snails just leave the dead snail's shells in the tank (once the flesh has been pulled out.)

Any idea on the species, anyways? Even just a description would be interesting to hear.
Tall skinny shell, or fat oval shell - greyish stubby face, or long black eye stalks - something entirely different - et cetera.

[mermaidwannabe]

It's only white on the top two tiers of the spiral at the tip of the shell, and those are the only two spirals that have worn away. And it isn't spots, it's more of an encrustation. Sort of reminds me of mineral deposits, but they're never dry, because the snails are always in water.

All I know of the species is that these are pond snails. The shells are dark brown, and the flesh is also dark. The eye stalks -- or what I assume are the eye stalks -- are just thin, upward curving protrusions about 1/4 inch long. Each eye kind of reminds me of a single eyelash on a human but much darker. Some of the smaller snails have shells with goldish-brown highlights, but none are lightly colored.

The shells are fat and roundish, and the spirals are well-defined.

Is it normal for these snails to seal themselves off inside of their shells and just stay dormant for days in a row? I've smelled the one, and there is no odor, and eventually it opens up a little on its own. Just when I think it's dead, it moves and I notice it in a different place in the tank than it previously was. Even when it has been upside down for quite awhile, it eventually rights itself and goes on its way.

Actually, all of the snails, at one time or another, have been upside down on the tops of their shells, but always right themselves after awhile and move along.

This is why it's so hard for me to tell if they're dead or alive -- because they can stay motionless and sealed up for days on end.

-- mermaidwannabe

[VoidParadigm]

Could be a Physidae species, not that that'll help you much seeing as there are few people who consider them pets not pests (therefore no care sheets on them.)

My older (assumed Physidae, same species as yours in any case, judging on your description) Physa Snails sometimes stay in one place near the top of the water for so many days that the water level will drop below them. After a while they always stir themselves and move back down.

In my experience when the snail is dead you'll be able to tell immediately. The flesh is usually grotesquely hanging out, as opposed to that sort of twisty half-hang out they do when using the water current for faster travel and to control the amount of air in their shell.

As for whatever's encrusting them, I have no idea. However perhaps it's just something natural in your water? I've seen everything from jelly packs of eggs to full out ferns growing on my two species of living Pond Snail shells. While it doesn't sound like an organism, that's really the only example I can think of.

It's possible it could be shell deformity, I suppose. Especially if it's only on the upmost tiers, therefore developed younger.

[mermaidwannabe]

So, if they seal themselves off inside of their shells (little "trapdoor" on the bottom closed tightly), they are definitely still alive?

Your description of staying in one place for days sounds like yours stay attached to the glass for several days until the water level evaporates so much it falls below them.

What I'm describing with mine is laying upside down on the substrate for several days, closed off and not moving. Do they temporarily go dormant at that time, or is it their way of protecting their delicate flesh from a perceived threat, such as when the syphon tube pushes them out of the way during vacuuming, or a fish nudges them?

I'm just trying to ascertain if this is natural behavior for them, or if they do this because something is wrong?

As for the shell situation being a natural deformity, when I first got this snail, it's shell was perfectly normal -- no white stuff on it, no deterioration. That began happening after I had it for awhile. I began to notice it while the snail was still outdoors in the pond. It was there until September 26th, when I set my tank up, and moved my two snails into it.

I have now noticed the same thing beginning on my other large snail -- some white has just barely begun to form at the very tip of its shell, and at present is still just a dot. That second snail's shell is still intact, as of yet -- no visible deterioration.

-- mermaidwannabe

[VoidParadigm]

Well, definitely not Physas or Lymns if they have operculums (trapdoors.) Both of those species have none, they just hunker down underneath their shell with their eyes tucked in and their "foot" spread out showing.

Operculums and syphon tubes sound like a species of Pomacea (Mystery/Apple) though some other species do have them. When I had operculum'd snails they did occasionally rest in weird positions like that for extended periods. Are you sure they're managing to get enough to eat?

As for the white build ups, I frankly have no idea.

[Sarkazmo]

Sounds like you have Japanese Trap Door snails or a closely related species. My JTDS' will go dormant for weeks at a time then all of a sudden they'll cover the surface of the tank and be active for days then back to 'sleep'.

JTDS are cool water snails and tend to be much less active in warmer water conditions. They're called 'Pond Snails' because people use them to keep the algae down in outdoor koi ponds.

The colouration of your snails doesn't match though, here's a pic of JTDS (not mine but identical in colouration."

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Sark

[mermaidwannabe]

I think my best bet is to try to post a pic or two.

They should be getting plenty to eat -- I feed the bottom feeders regularly, and there's always stuff leftover in the gravel.

I did notice when they were still in my pond that they would eat the algae that formed on the walls, but there is no algae in my tank, except for some brownish stuff that occasionally forms on some of the leaves of my artificial plants which are positioned in areas where the light is brightest.

On the inside walls of my tank, there are some barely visible milky splotches, neither green nor brown, and I don't know if those could serve as food for snails or not. I scrub most of those off when I vacuum the gravel, because I don't think they look good, but have managed to miss some in the harder to reach areas. During our power outage when there was no light, these milky splotches formed quite thickly and covered most of the glass. When I view them at an angle, I can see tiny wispy hair-like stuff swaying in the current from these splotches. Not sure what that stuff is, but most of it is gone, now.

It formed a lot more while my tank was cycling, but it is now cycled and the parameters are good. It only came back after the power had been out for a couple of days. During that time, I managed to keep my water somewhat agitated by battery-powered means.

After my tank had cycled, I noticed my snails became much more active and were moving along the glass a good deal of the time. I could see their mouths opening and closing as they traveled. But, ever since this last vacuuming of the gravel, they just lie upside down on the substrate, sealed off.

Maybe the snails are starving? When I put algae pellets into the tank, they don't seem the least bit interested in them. What else can I feed them?

Can anyone tell me what's going on with them?

-- mermaidwannabe

[mermaidwannabe]

Thanks, Sark. You were posting at the same time I was.

The behavior you describe matches the behavior of my snails, but mine are much darker than shown in the pic. And the fact they're called pond snails because they feed on the algae in outdoor ponds -- that's exactly what mine did when they were out there.

The shape of the shell and the well-defined spirals match perfectly my own snails.

Since mine is a coldwater tank, and these are cool water snails -- that, too, is a match.

So, maybe I have a dark morph of JTS, or a similar species? It sounds like the sealing off of themselves and "sleeping" is normal behavior -- a going dormant. So maybe my snails are just doing what comes naturally.

What is your take on the white stuff on the top two tiers of the shell spiral, and the erosion of the shell where it's present?

-- mermaidwannabe

[VoidParadigm]

Sounds like you have Japanese Trap Door snails or a closely related species.

Sark

There we go. That's the name I couldn't remember, so just went with the mystery/similar by default.

I personally haven't read about anything with that kind of snail in six month, so completely forgot they existed.

[mermaidwannabe]

Okay, so now it's safe to assume that laying upside down on the substrate with their trapdoor closed is fairly normal for these snails -- for them to go dormant for awhile.

I'm still concerned about the white encrustation on the uppermost spirals of the shell on one of them, and now I see it just beginning on another, at the very tip of its shell. The one with the two tiers involved actually has that part of its shell eroded away, and there's an open hole at the top.

If this is a calcium deficiency, how best can I rectify it without raising the pH in my tank. Right now, my pH stays pretty stable at 7.4 - 7.6, and I really don't want it going higher than that.

By the way, I put the snail I was watching in the sink back into my tank. I smelled it again and there's no odor. I'm thinking it's still alive.

The problem I have with them staying closed like that is that they are supposed to be scavangers helping to keep my substrate cleaner as part of the clean-up crew. If they lay there dormant most of the time, they're not doing that. And I've never seen them eat the algae pellets, either, which may mean they're not getting enough to eat, unless they scavange those at night after I've retired.

One more question -- is this species of snail sensitive to higher nitrates? Could that be why they remain housed inside their shells with their trapdoors tightly closed?


-- mermaidwannabe

[Scrup]

Without calcium in the water, the snail shells will erode. Best you can do if raising the calcium content is not an option, is feed them calcium rich foods so they will be able to patch the holes that form. Snail flesh will actually harden over a hole, sealing it off if they are healthy.

Are these mystery snails or japanese trapdoor snails? Trapdoor snails will not last long in tropical temps and will spend days on end inside their shells.

Snails, while they will help keep the substrate clean, they are not payed very well for it. Expect them to perform as such. Same goes for any cleanup crew.

[Wild Turkey]

+1 Scrup

You can also find sinking pellets with calcium added at kensfish.

As far as nitrates, pretty much all inverts are sensitive, if your nitrates not less than ten I would lower it with a wc and see if theres any difference.

[mermaidwannabe]

Scrup, these are Japanese Trapdoor Snails, and mine is a coldwater tank, so the temperature never rises to tropical levels. I know they do well in cold water.

Immediately after my tank cycled, and the nitrates were 0, then 5 for awhile, I noticed all my snails coming out of their shells and becoming quite active. So I'll bet the higher nitrates are driving them back into dormancy.

Yesterday, I vacuumed the gravel again thoroughly and did two water changes, both quite large. It drove my nitrates back down to 20, which is okay, but not as low as I would like them.

I am hoping the addition of live floating plants will help with this.

I'll check my algae pellets to see if they contain calcium. But even if they do, the snails don't eat them. Sealed up like that, how would they even know the pellets are in the tank? Can they smell through their operculum?

-- mermaidwannabe

[Scrup]

Hah, didnt even notice the first page. Teach me to post at work while I'm busy.

When they are hungry they will come out. Mine frequently stayed in their shells right before they gave birth. Livebearing snails are awesome to watch.
A pic I got of mine giving birth-
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It could also be the nitrates, though usually when they don't like the water quality they will all hang out above the waterline, probably trying to find better water- similar to this picture-
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Floating plants will definitely help with the nitrates.

[mermaidwannabe]

That's an awesome pic! Maybe mine are about to give birth. I'll watch the tank for the emergence of tiny snails.

Mine never hang out above the water line. Quite the contrary. They lay upside down on the substrate for days at a time.

Well, I guess they're just going to do what they're going to do. Since I'm quite certain, now, none of them are dead, I can just leave them alone, continue to provide food in the form of algae pellets, and they'll either eat it or they won't.

Considering that these larger guys have spent most of last summer in an outdoor pond, I would think they're not that finicky about water conditions. That pond was an algae pot, which pleased them no end, as food for them was constant.

I would just like to see a little more activity from them, but maybe they're lazy snails. Ya think? Waiting for a government hand-out? LOL! :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

-- mermaid

[Sarkazmo]

Scrup:

Yeah, I didn't know what they were when I got them and the pet store didn't know. To me they looked like Apples and I needed a couple algae eaters so I got them. When I did find out I'd been considering lowering the tank temp but having fry in there I didn't want to do that. So they're now in my partner's unheated White Cloud tank. Within hours of acclimating them they were out and about and have been since and they'd been dormant for several days in my tank. BTW, Multies do NOT like JTDS young at all. All the other snails they're content with just ejecting from their areas but for some reason they kill the JTDS babies. Don't have to worry about that anymore though. There's already a couple babies in her tank and it's only been a few days.

+1 on the calcium supplementation.

Sark