GH and KH?

[octopus44]

I just tested my water to find and how hard it is and I need some help interpreting the results. Feel free to direct me to another thread that covers this (I had trouble finding one).

KH- 71.6 ppm
GH- 250.6 ppm

I assume that I have hard water but how hard? Also what does mean for plants and fish?

Thanks

[zackish]

A GH of 250 I think is EXTREMELY hard but I may be mistaken.

[gm72]

zackish, please try to avoid making comments and giving opinions without proper knowledge. 250 is not even close to being EXTREMELY hard. Also please don't take offense to my making such a comment, but reactionary statements like that lead to confusion for new aquarists, and we try very hard to avoid that type of situation here.

Refer to this for a reasonably good explanation.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[octopus44]

Thanks gm72. So according to that I have moderately hard water.

[gm72]

True. Remember that fish are quite adaptable. Slow acclimation practices and stability are key for successful fish keeping.

[zackish]

Well if people continue to read then they could see I said I may be mistaken...
but anyways I just thought it was kind of hard because I see most fish like a GH of like 10-20 or somthing.

[Chrona]

That's dGH (degrees general hardness) which is a different unit than ppm (parts per million). The conversion factor is something like 1:18

[Sasquatch]

It depends on which test kits you're using. I have the Nutrafin test for GH and KH and they define them as :

GH : General hardness, quantity of dissolved salts in the water expressed as mg/L

KH : Carbonate Hardness, buffering capacity of the water, expressed as mg/L CaCO3 equivalents.

All of this should be explained with the test kit instructions, but a GH of 250 is quite hard and could represent a lot of dissolved salts in the water.

But it's not a big deal, as gm72 mentionned, fish are quite adaptable and given a few days should acclimate to the conditions in the aquarium.

[gm72]

Well if people continue to read then they could see I said I may be mistaken...
but anyways I just thought it was kind of hard because I see most fish like a GH of like 10-20 or somthing.

Then why bother responding if you didn't have any idea?

Sasquatch has good information. Make sure that when you are introducing fish to the aquarium that you acclimate very slowly to ensure they are able to keep up with the changes in their environment.

[tmmycat]

gm, why are you being rude to zackish? it's just a forum ... it's not the end of the world.

[cocoa_pleco]

not to be mean or anything, but GM does have a point. if you are not sure on the advice, it is best to leave it for someone else to take care of

[gm72]

I wasn't being rude at all. If you don't have the answer or are unsure don't post. Simple as is simple.

This is a forum, true, but new posters here rely on our advice. If the information is false or uninformed it is negative in nature and should not at all appear here.

Being rude is one thing, pointing out a pointless post is another. If I were being rude I certainly wouldn't post any additional information or advice. I did. Done.

[octopus44]

I have the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit which has a KH & GH conversion chart that reads as follows:

# of Drops: 1
(degrees)dKH: 1
ppm KH/GH: 17.9
etc...

So the ppm KH/GH would be how hard my water is right?

I plan on putting some cardinals in my aquarium which I have read are sensitive fish. Will they be ok with moderately hard water?

[cocoa_pleco]

as long as you drip acclimate the cardinals they should be fine. however. if you buy them from a store with the same water as you, just do the regular float and cup water since they are already used to the hardness

[gm72]

Great point that is often overlooked. Check to see if the LFS is on the same water system as are you. Then you will know how deliberately you need to acclimate.

[tmmycat]

gm, I understand your point ... it sounds like you're just trying to make sure that beginners follow the advice that is most likely to help their fish live, which is definitely a good goal. Everyone wants the fish to have the best chance possible.

But, just a bit of insight from an "outsider" and a true beginner ... take my advice if you want to, or not, either way is fine with me ... If you want people to follow the best advice possible, I think all you guys really need to do is include your rationale when you give advice. The world is full of conflicting opinions and I think most people are used to sorting it out. When I get conflicting advice, I just google it and see what comes up. Knowing the rationale makes googling easier.

Telling people not to post ... well ... in my opinion it's really not necessary, since good advice speaks for itself. And I can imagine beginners would be turned off by a forum that discourages certain people from posting but not others.

Besides, even if the only posts are from people who are 100% sure of themselves, that doesn't mean that all posts will be sound advice. Everyone makes mistakes. And sometimes people who aren't 100% sure of themselves might have the idea that saves a fish's life. Just a thought. If everyone includes their rationale I think the beginner is much more likely to be guided to the right answer.

Anyway, good luck... I hope you find a strategy that works.

[gm72]

Well said, appreciated, and agreed to a point.

If someone posts a reply without substantiating the information or if the reply is basically poor information, then he/she shouldn't post as such.

If we don't post a rationale behind our replies though, we do expect someone to ask: "but why" instead of replying with poor information or ill-advised rationale.

New aquarists may indeed be "turned off by a forum that discourages certain people from posting but not others" as your stated, but at the same time we mean to discourage certain people from posting when they are here to only argue and/or post without ammunition to back their opinions/information.

[octopus44]

I will probably be ordering my fish online because I don't have a car. If I do get them in town I am injecting CO2 into my tank so my pH is probably different from and lfs in my area.

What is the best way to acclimate fish?

[cocoa_pleco]

the drip way same as saltwater

[Lady Hobbs]

tmmycat, your post was well written and well thought out and I understand what you're saying. Everyone does have a point of view and different suggestions to give. We welcome all suggestions and ideas but guesswork is not one of them. We can do that ourselves.

I have to agree with gm72. For instance, if I post "what would be a good filter to buy" and someone writes back "I don't know", then what is the point of even posting? If you don't have the answer then move on to a post you may have the answer for and leave the first post to others who can answer that one correctly.

There's a lot of bad answers (and incorrect answers) given in the forum and this is what we'd like to try to eliminate.

I offered nothing in this thread because I don't know enough about the subject matter. Guesswork is not what the thread writer is looking for. He wants firm, knowledgeable answers to his question.

We all make mistakes here and we all move on. We need to all be careful sometimes of the advice we give to others and make sure we know what we're talking about.

[Lady Hobbs]

I will probably be ordering my fish online because I don't have a car. If I do get them in town I am injecting CO2 into my tank so my pH is probably different from and lfs in my area.

What is the best way to acclimate fish?

There are so many different methods people use to acclimate fish it isn't funny. I have floated the bag in the tank for 15 minutes and let them loose. I have put them in a pail, opened their bag of water, added some tank water and left them like that for 15 minutes. Netted them and placed in the tank. I have added fish without acclimating them at all. I do check the temps at the store when buying them.

I was reading the other day that a large fish store opens the bag, hangs it from the side of the tank with a clothespin, adds 1 Drop of Ick Cure and leaves them like that for 15 minutes. Others go to great lengths acclimating their fish for up to an hour.

It all comes down to what you think will work for you. I have to say that I have not lost a fish no matter how I've acclimated them. Do not add the water your fish come in into your tank. And while you are acclimating your new fish, feed the others. Turn the lights off when you add your new fish and do not feed them until the next day.

If you get your fish online, you will get instructions as to how they want you to do it and it will probably be different than all the suggestions you get here. Read the online sites that sell fish and not even two of them do it the same. Fish are hardier than we give them credit for but too much stress will get to them faster than anything.

[Lady Hobbs]

I ran across this link this morning looking for something else and thought it a good explanation of GH and KH. I could almost understand it written as it is here. LOL

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[octopus44]

tmmycat, your post was well written and well thought out and I understand what you're saying. Everyone does have a point of view and different suggestions to give. We welcome all suggestions and ideas but guesswork is not one of them. We can do that ourselves.

I have to agree with gm72. For instance, if I post "what would be a good filter to buy" and someone writes back "I don't know", then what is the point of even posting? If you don't have the answer then move on to a post you may have the answer for and leave the first post to others who can answer that one correctly.

There's a lot of bad answers (and incorrect answers) given in the forum and this is what we'd like to try to eliminate.

I offered nothing in this thread because I don't know enough about the subject matter. Guesswork is not what the thread writer is looking for. He wants firm, knowledgeable answers to his question.

We all make mistakes here and we all move on. We need to all be careful sometimes of the advice we give to others and make sure we know what we're talking about.

Well said Hobbs and thanks for the link.

[JDonner]

Sorry for bringing this up again, but II really felt the need to reply (for the sake of the community spirit and beginners).

There's a lot of bad answers (and incorrect answers) given in the forum and this is what we'd like to try to eliminate.

Understandable, but do understand that a lot of these people who give the wrong answer often don't know that they are wrong. I have posted probably 15,000 times on forums related to another hobby of mine, also have two web sites (2+ million vistors/year ) and forums related to it and based on all that experience I say that you don't go tell people not to reply if they're not sure.

A forum is not just about experts. A lot of people who are beginners and have learned a lot the last few months are often eager to help complete newbies, it makes them feel good about themselves. The success of a forum is not just about plain facts, it’s also about the community at large, which should not just be a forum of beginners asking questions and experts answering them, also beginners should feel part of the community. I have heard that many times; “I’m so thankful for all the help I got on the forum and I want to help other beginners in return”. You kill this by saying what GM72 said.

So it’s not just about fish, it’s also about social aspects.

Also understand that not everything in fiskeeping is pure math, which is what makes this hobby so interesting. Even experts are often wrong, because let’s not forget; fishkeeping is not a static hobby, new techniques and products are developed regularly and it’s impossible for anyone to keep up with all of it. Just look at our hobby 25 years ago and compare that with today; a huge difference.

It's actually sometimes good to have people who are wrong, because then the experienced person can't just get away with "you're wrong, it's not hard at all", now he/she also has to go into more detail and sometimes even show some proof. That is much more helpful then just saying "It's not hard" and just assume that beginners have to believe you because you’re experienced and have 5,000+ posts on this forum. Heck, I’m member on some forum with 6,000+ post and still have to come up with long replies, links and screenshot to convince some beginners.

Personally I find it much more fun to show someone with undeniable proof that they are wrong, then just having coming to a board where everybody replies with the correct answer...yawn.

Understand that I’m not pointing fingers here, I’m just trying to explain that things should always be black/white and that also beginners should have the feeling that they're helpful, after all many of them will be the experts of the future.

Just my $0,02

[SkarloeysMom]

Check to see if the LFS is on the same water system as are you. Then you will know how deliberately you need to acclimate.

I just figured this one out myself. When I get fish from a new shop I test the water to see what they're swimming in. Fish that I know are more sensitive from information I've read about them, I drip acclimate.

[Chrona]

pH changes caused by CO2 have no effect whatsoever on fish. If your base tank pH (let a cup of tank water sit for 24 hours uncovered) is the same or near the LFS's pH, then you are fine.

[Zerileous]

pH changes caused by CO2 have no effect whatsoever on fish. If your base tank pH (let a cup of tank water sit for 24 hours uncovered) is the same or near the LFS's pH, then you are fine.

how can this be? It was my understanding that CO2 caused the pH to drop due to carbonic acid. How is carbonic acid not acid? Err, I mean if a fish is sensitive to an increase in acidity (a decrease in pH) how is it that carbonic acid would not aggrivate that sensitivity? What am I missing?

[Chrona]

how can this be? It was my understanding that CO2 caused the pH to drop due to carbonic acid. How is carbonic acid not acid? Err, I mean if a fish is sensitive to an increase in acidity (a decrease in pH) how is it that carbonic acid would not aggrivate that sensitivity? What am I missing?

I don't really have a proven scientific explanation for it, but see my theory below. The main thing is that thousands of people run CO2 injection in their aquariums, and I have never seen a case in which a drastic change in pH due to changing CO2 concentrations has ever stressed fish. When I do my weekly 50% water change in my 10g, my pH changes from 6.0 to 7.1 in about 20 seconds (because the incoming water is not saturated with CO2, and because the incoming water agitates the existing water and further causes CO2 loss). The fish are all indifferent. The same has been noticed by virtually everyone over at plantedtank.net that runs CO2. Any deaths related to CO2 are all from asphixiation, noticed by fish gasping when:

1) The tank does an end of tank dump (basically regulator goes crazy and dumps a tremendous amount of CO2 into the water

2) Too high CO2 levels at night, where the oxygen levels are depleted by plant use already.


Now, this is just my theory:
In nature, high CO2 concentrations is very common in bodies of water due to the seasonal turnover bringing the oxygen-depleted, CO2 rich deep waters to the surface and vice versa, so the fish have acclimated to carbonic acid. Not to mention the fish constantly put out the stuff themselves. However, phosphuric and sulfuric acid (the ingredients in aquarium pH modifying products) are not very common in high concentrations in bodies of water (would mostly be human caused), so they may not be well acclimated for them. Carbonic acid is also a very weak acid, whereas phosphoric and sulfuric acid are extremely strong. The difference is similar to ingesting a 40% solution of acetic acid (weak), compared to a 40% solution of sulfuric acid. One would give you a really bad stomachache, while the other would kill you. Maybe I'm just pulling at strings? I'm an engineering major, but I did well in chemistry, so I guess I at least have some credibility? lolz.

[Zerileous]

interesting chrona. It does make a lot of sense. Just goes to show how our understaning of aquarium chemestry can be quite narrow and overgeneralized. Seems like pH is not as important as concentrations of certain toxic acids which may be indicated by pH.

[Bill M.]

OMG.. so you mean to tell me all this fustration with my kH is for nothing!!!!:smad: :smad:

[Chrona]

OMG.. so you mean to tell me all this fustration with my kH is for nothing!!!!:smad: :smad:

Hey, I had to go through it too ;)

[RobbieG]

I agree totally with Chrona on this. I have seen fish go through a change of .3 or .4 in PH. It is instantly obvious that they are in great distress - the reaction is so obvious that there is no mistaking it. If they aren't removed they die.

On the other hand - when adding CO2 the goal is to add enough to change the PH by a full degree. If this change was in any way similar to regular PH readings the fish would be stressed constantly. If you measure your PH over the course of any 24 hour period when you are running CO2 you will see that it is always moving - down when the plants are using the CO2 and back up when they stop.

There are a couple of obvious possibilities

First that the fish are able to acclimate because the change happens over time. The PH drops and rises - but does it over the course of 8 - 12 hours. This could possibly give the fish time to adapt. I don't necessarly believe this because I have moved fish back and forth from my tanks (CO2 and no CO2) quite often with no ill effects at all. (Also as Chrona said the are times when normal activity changes the PH drastically)

The second is that the test we do for PH is just plain fooled by the CO2. What I mean by this is that when we measure the PH when we add CO2 we are measuring the PH of the carbonic acid rather than the amount of dissolved H2O2 or HO. I suspect that this is the more likely explanation.