Not sure if this was a mistake or not (huge post)

[HomaridNoob6]

Well, I've been wanting to get a few discus again, and I've been holding off. Since I have not been healthy lately, I have wanted to wait for a time when I have been out of the hospital regularly for at least a month, and don't feel I'll be going back in. Since discus will be more maintenaince than my other tanks, I'd hate to lose them in the first week or two because I can't do WC's or even feed due to my illness. I have had a 75g tank set up for months waiting, holding a small cycle with otos and neons, and extra medium waiting in other tanks. Just covering my bases here so you know I'm not planning on tossing them in an unestablished tank.

There are a couple problems/considerations, here we go.

1. This is not a bare bottom tank, it is planted. For this reason I would like to get adult discus, much easier to keep them healthy. If I were gonna get juvys I'd prefer to grow them out in a bare bottom tank... I'm not looking for more work than I need, if I get big into them again, well god help me...

2. I have a great source for a variety of healthy adult discus at a VERY reasonable price, I know the quality, and how they are kept, also I can see the fish before buying them and they are not shipped.This is like optimal purchase conditions... I have another source for juvys to mid size at an even better price, but I don't know the quality or background.

So, I placed an order through a friend for some plants and a few other things. When I arrived to pick it up this morning, one of the boxes had 6 fairly stressed looking discus in it. He had ordered them for another customer. Well, I thought this was a great chance to take a look at what this supplier (the second one I mentioned) had. Well I wasn't too impressed by most of them. Anyway, I wasn't the only one, and the other customer only took 4 of them(why my friend, after years of running a pet store doesn't get the money for special orders up front still escapes me). Anyway, he called me back and asked me if I wanted the 2 turqouise that he had for $4.99 a piece, and I said sorry, no, I didn't really want those exact discus at this exact moment either. Well, eventually he just asked me to take them for him, and bring them back in when he has space, or if I wanted to I could keep them.

So now I have two turqouise discus of mid to low quality at first glance, they are pretty small, 2 3/4-3 1/2 inches, much smaller than preferred for my situation... They've been bagged most of the day, and looked really bad earlier but are now drip acclimating, finally gaining a little color, and breathing more normally again. I wasn't sure they'd even make the tank transfer at first, but now I'm gaining confidence.

So here are a few questions.

Should I let them drip acclimate longer than usual? maybe slow the drip even more, and leave it until the AM? The reason I say this is they seem to be recovering from the stress a bit and I don't know whether it would be better to get them through the next shock of moving into the tank sooner or later.

Did a 50% waterchange on this tank this morning, after I sorted all my plants and other fish into their respective homes. Should I do another WC immediately after putting them in the tank, a few hours after, or wait 8 hours or more? Once again, for stress reasons. Since they have gone through a lot being bagged all day in not the best of conditions, I'm trying to balance minimal stress and optimal water quality here.

Am I best off just resigning to have these fish permanently, or is it realistic to think I will be able to safely rehome them soon (If they do well and I don't get attached...) without causing more harm than good? I know a friend who would take them given a little time to make room.

Any other suggestions/comments you have are appreciated. just keep a few things in mind please. Yes, as the title says this was probably a mistake, I don't like getting unplanned fish, but I seem to do it a lot between doing maintenance for people and my LFS, and being the fish go to guy for them also. Thankfully I typically do not experience many losses. I would not have taken these fish if I didn't think they had a better chance of surviving this way.

I know I'm getting a bit ahead of myself since they haven't even been here very long, and may not even make it a couple days, but it's my way of being optimistic. I've got a lot to relearn about keeping discus, which I'd been slowly working on anyway but it's been a good few years since i've had them(Thankfully these aren't wild!). So any major problems you can see from what I've mentioned here feel free to point out to me.

Sorry that was so long, I'll try to get some pics up when I get a chance.

[MCHRKiller]

I always drip acclimated discus for 6hrs, its plenty of time to allow them to get used to their new conditions. Put them in the tank and leave the light off for atleast 12hrs to let them adapt to the tank then you can resume as normal. The fish are of decent size, so a waterhchange every other day would be fine for them. Since these are free and of not great quality, they are good fish to "learn" how to keep discus with. Even low quality discus can grow into very nice fish given proper care and attention. You will need to feed them 4X per day as well. Moving them again wont cause any problems...just be gentle with netting them and have your friend acclimate them as you did.

[Lady Hobbs]

I have a feeling you are going to find these Discus one of your favorite fish. You just might like them a whole lot once they color up and calm down. Congrats. The price was right, for sure. :)

Hope you're feeling better, too.

[HomaridNoob6]

lemme start by saying thanks. Well, I've kept discus before guys, but it's been many years. I already know I love them, and honestly I've found that captive bred ones aren't as insanely difficult to keep as people think. I probably won't wind up rehoming them as long as they do well and continue to look better, i know I'll get attached and I was planning on discus soon anyway. They may not be the highest quality, but they're quite attractive and I'm not that much of a fish snob anyway, I can't afford to be lol.

They're still dripping, I slowed it down a bit and emptied some of the older water. The water they were in the bags with was quite yellowish with a decent amount of feces (all normal healthy looking feces tho so that's a decent sign.) so I'm sure they were suffering from some ammonia poisoning. They're starting to look like totally different fish. They no longer look like they came out of an ammonia filled cave (albino pale with red gill areas). They are turning a nice blue, and all but he faintest red around the gills has disappeared.

Of all the times my camera batteries are both totally dead, but I'd prolly mess up the settings and freak em out with the flash anyway... Hopefully pics tomorrow once they have been in the tank a while and relaxed as long as all goes well.

So here's another question, I already knew that I need to feed them more often and consistantly than I would my other fish for good health/growth, but when should I realistically do their first feeding and expect them to eat it? Also, when do I start considering it a problem if they don't eat? I have quite a few (appropriate) types of food I can try if they are picky, but I have had problems getting a few new discus eating in the past within the first 48-72 hours or so of being in a new tank. What would be a reasonable time period to discount pickiness and start to consider refusal to eat from stress or parasite problems, etc?

[HomaridNoob6]

It's been around 5 hours now that they've been drip acclimating, they really do look like different fish now. I can only see a little red on one side of one fish, and their colors are really coming in. They're becoming much more active, and they're swimming around the bucket calmly, so it's probably time to move them soon.

[Lady Hobbs]

THIS is what I'm waiting for! And new batteries. :)

I hope they are well rested up this morning and in the mood to eat. I imagine after the shipping and then sitting in a pail for several hours, they will be happy to be in a tank.

[Crispy]

nice pickups! best of luck and keep us updated! :fish:

[WhiteDevil]

wish i coulda came across a $5 discus deal.


I acclimate mine around 6 hours as well, a nice slow drip, a piece of towel or sheet foam insulation under the bucket to keep thermo transfer to a minimum(yes i know you live in sunny california but concrete is cold).

As far as feeding goes, bloodworms first and foremost, if they dont eat that then they more then likely wont eat anything that day.
I also have a planted 210 with discus in it, I introduced them around 2" to the tank and now have several of the 18 i have that are pushing the 4-5" range.

BB are not required for grow out, if the tank is healthy the fish will grow up fine and healthy. I will admit i have one stunted one but he/she was a freebie from the breeder and while still 2" the little guy sure does hold his own against the larger ones and get his fair share of food.

take care of yourself, fish are theraputic.

[Spardas]

Give up the 2 turqs and get the group of adults in at the same time. Give yourself some time to let the tank mature and let the plants grow. During this phase, you can:

1) Save money for adults. Adults are less demanding in term of frequent feeding and this will be better for your tank as you grow out the plants and trying to figure out the balance in the tank. It's also better to get the group in at the same time from one source.
2) Move things around or trying different aquascape without too much intervention and no stress on discus (since you don't have any).
3) Do more research on different sources of discus and how to make your own discus food without making a mess. This give you time to do research on planted discus tanks and it you leave yourself open to more options while you have no discus in the tank. You may find that there are easy wilds that you may want as opposed to domestic. You may find certain plants that you want to try growing out.

All in all, I think it's best to send those sub standard discus on their way to another person. Take some more time to save and research to build a quality show tank with better quality discus.

[HomaridNoob6]

Another of my typical HUGE posts...

Ok, so here's whats going on now. The fish are in the tank, looking and acting way better. Swimming calmly and exploring They've eaten small amounts of bloodworms twice, once earlier this morning, and once about an hour ago.

WhiteDevil: They actually wound up being free :) Thanks for your advice. I had the drip bucket elevated a bit off the floor, so no cold floors, GREAT advice though, I probably wouldn't have thought of that. I don't have concrete floors either, but the floor still isn't too warm...

Spardas: Well, the tank is "established", been running since the beginning of the year, holding a cycle since march with just a few fish. Maybe I wouldn't call it mature and grown out. The plants aren't fully grown out, but it is basically fully planted and theres good coverage in a lot of areas. Basically I'm pretty well as happy with the scaping as I'm gonna get for now.

As far as food goes, well, I've made a few different types of my own food for fish for years, I'm resigned to never figuring out how to do that without making a mess. But on the other hand, a lot more research on making food particularly FOR discus would be a very good idea.

As far as breeders for stock, I have one friend I really trust that lives about 45 minutes away that breeds on a fairly small scale. He will either sell me some of his bred stock, or pass me on to his distributor if I wanted to buy wilds off them.

These probably aren't as low quality as I thought also, they won't win any prizes, but it was hard to see much from them with no lighting and clamped fins. Admittedly I do not have an eye for these things either, so it could go either way. I wasn't judging by their coloration, but the fins and shape seemed a bit funky, I think mainly from stress, and my inexperienced eye.

Bottom line on these points, I'm about as happy with the tank as I'm going to be, and I'm not too worried about the discus themself coloration or quality wise. I'm still gonna have to wait and see how they do for a couple days, and that will dictate my actual final decision probably. I do appreciate your good advice, and it's honestly exactly what I probably should do. The only real problem with sending them on to another person because they are sub standard is, the person is a friend. I wouldn't want to give them to him if he was going to be unhappy with them, and they would just be passed from home to home (often when I've seen something like that happen, the fish just keep getting passed on to worse homes).

Anyway, thanks for the great advice. I'm not sure what will happen yet, but I can say it is certainly nice to see them looking good and eating today whether I decide to keep them or not. The whole idea of taking them was to keep them from dying in an ammonia bag, and that seemed to work out.

If I do give them up a week or two down the line, any suggestions on the least stressful way to catch them in the tank?

[WhiteDevil]

Ive spent ALOT of money on quality discus and even then once they get into YOUR tank with YOUR decor and color selections they will start to show peppering and bar's where they were none in the pictures.

I do agree with him though, definitely do your homework if you want top notch livestock.

[Spardas]

I never did like the idea of using nets on discus so ever since my first discus fish, I never used it again unless it isn't safe for me to use my hands.

Do you have any large clear plastic fish containers? You can wade them in the container and just lift them out. It's that simple but just make sure you cover the top.

I also like to lower the water level to like 20% of the tank and it'll make it much easier for me. Catching them while they're "sleeping" also makes it easier.

Personally, I lower the water down to 20% and then I catch them all by hand. To me, this is the best way to prevent any splashing if done right and it won't damage their slime exterior. If done right, they will be perfectly still in the palm of your hand. But maybe you should stick to the other method with the clear container if you're scared of dropping the fish, lol.

[HomaridNoob6]

I figured I'd better get a picture up before someone came along without the "this thread is worthless without pics" smiley. I know bad pic, bad framing, but I'm trying to run around and get some stuff done, so short on time. I'll try to get something decent later, this was the only somewhat focused one of a few hastily snapped shots. Now you can get more of an idea of what you guys think of them, and not take the word of an inexperienced eye (keep in mind when i got up this morning they looked nothing like they did yesterday). They definitely aren't as bad as I thought they were, but they are smaller than I thought at first glance. I think they're pretty nice looking fish either way.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g158/lobsterrabbi/fish%20and%20tanks/P1010446.jpg

[HomaridNoob6]

heh, just caught your reply after I posted Spardas, sounds like a good technique, If I were worried about dropping them, i could always float a small container in the lowered tank and place them in that after catching them, so I don't move them far by hand or risk them hitting the floor, so sounds good to me.

[Lady Hobbs]

No frayed fins and don't look beat up and look pretty good to me but I've never had Discus. A week from now they should be in full color and even prettier I would think.

This leads me to a question, tho. I can understand getting Prime Discus if you are planning on selling and looking to get the most from your young'en's. But if you just want some nice Discus for your own personal use, why is it necessary to get only Prime Discus?

I think that would personally concern me with losternoob never knowing what week he will be hospitalized again and able to care for his fish like he'd like. I would think having top-of-the-line would be a bigger worry when he's on his hospital "holidays."

[Spardas]

The reason I push for better quality is not only for the looks but for the overall health of the fishes. Good breeders will cull any defects from the batch to ensure the highest quality. That being said, the higher quality ones are the ones that have the ideal shape, body, fins, eye to body ratio, excellent heath, etc. Not only that, the chances of them growing to the best possible size is also higher if given proper care.

Now, I have to say that there are some strains that are weaker than others due to a lot of inbreeding. This is true no matter how much culling is done.

But I also took into consideration of Noob's situation and I highly recommend getting rid of these and go for pre adults at least.

Overall, they don't look bad but it's hard for me to compare with the blue background. Usually, juveniles shouldn't have a lot of coloration on them yet and with the cobalt line, you should see more patterns spread across their body while they're still young. The one on the top looks like it'll have a saddle on the nose when it grows up and it may be stunted or may not grow to maximum size. The eye in juveniles are generally bigger so the eye to body ratio is a bit different for these but those eyes are a bit too big. The coloration of the eyes aren't good either. But anyway, they'll be a lot of work and may grow up stunted. That's why it's best to get the pre adults or adults.

Can you get an accurate measurement for me?

[HomaridNoob6]

Well, honestly you touched on how I feel in a lot of ways there LH. I really only care about enjoying them myself, although I would like them to be good examples of their species (Whether that's the original wild species, or what we humans have bred).

That really is my biggest concern at almost all times, having to go in the hospital for another week or so and coming back to find tank disasters. I never really know if and when that might happen, so...

And, of course, on closer examination, one has a few nice little white spots near the base of its pectoral and tail fins. Probably a good chance that will turn out to be ich. Treat now? or wait to confirm? not like anything will kill the ich while it's attached, right? So no point in medicating yet and exposing them to medication they may not need, or am I wrong?

Geez Spardas, what's with you posting right before I submit a post and making me go back and edit!?!? :)

Most accurate measurement I can get is 2 3/4 to 3 inches. They're pretty skittish of me approaching the tank, and I'm horrible with estimating. My first clue at them not being the highest quality was obviously the price the distributor was giving them at. Anyway, you pretty much summed up what i was thinking, and why I originally wanted to go with adults. These will be more work, may not be the end result I want, may not make it to the end result and may not be as healthy as they could in the end. It's still totally up in the air, so I'll just enjoy them for the moment, do what I can to feed and care for them well, and figure it out. I can take them back to my buddy at the LFS soon, he just needs a few days to get his special order fish out of there, and his other tanks organized. Or I could give them to another friend, but as I said before, I'd rather keep sub par discus than send them to their possible death, or just much worse conditions than I can provide because I don't feel they are "good" enough for me. I don't plan on breeding/selling them, so no worries there.

[3dees]

I think that the eye size and coloration could mean they will be stunted, but that does'nt mean they can't become beautiful fish. they just wont win any awards. do you care? my discus are for my pleasure and if I'm happy than thats all that counts. feed a mix of healthy food and most importantly, keep up with the water changes. they will love you for it.

[WhiteDevil]

I think that the eye size and coloration could mean they will be stunted, but that does'nt mean they can't become beautiful fish. they just wont win any awards. do you care? my discus are for my pleasure and if I'm happy than thats all that counts. feed a mix of healthy food and most importantly, keep up with the water changes. they will love you for it.

what burb,neighbor?(you going to the nov 7th cichlid swap in naperville?)


I feel the same way i got one thats 6 months old and still just under 2" he isnt skinny, he is out eating and foraging every single day and even pushes around some of my 5" discus, i am considering still powerfeeding him to gain him some size but its my single most favorite fish in the 210, i figure humans are allowed to live as midgets, fish should be too.

[HomaridNoob6]

3dees Yeah, i'm not worried about winning any prizes, they're just for my enjoyment too. So as far as actual quality is concerned, it's not a big deal to me. I find them pretty enough.

[3dees]

hey whitedevil,
I'm in Schiller Park. just a stone throw from O'Hare. I wanted a few fish for the lower section of my tank so I just ordered 4 festivem's. that should complete my stock so I don't think I'll go to Naperville.