New Angelicus Botia picking on my L333

[nebula72]

Hi. My name is Tom and I am a first time poster.

I have an L333 juvie (about 2.5 inches) in my 29 gallon tank. When I put him in about a 4 weeks ago, he chose to stay out in my larger of 2 resin hollow tree ornamants instead of one of the 2 cut flower pots that I also put in the tank. I had him in there for about 2 weeks (along with a Dwarf Gourami). And although he hardly ever came out, at night I would turn on the lights and see him out and he looked great. So 2 weeks ago I decided to get 3 Angelicus botia (2.5" polka dot loaches) and 4 neon tetras. After one day the Loaches went into that hollow trea where the pleco stayed. Since this tree has so many hallow roots inside and there is no holes on the side of it (you can only get in from the top and a small hole in the bottom), they only way to see the fish is to pull out this huge thing and watch the fish come swimming out. Well I did this sometime in the middle of last week and the pleco looked ok. Fast forward to last night. I bought 5 blue rams. And this morning I wanted to check on the pleco as i havent really seen him in a few days, I pull out the ornament and out comes 3 loaches and my beloved L333 with most of his tail fin gone. I really suspect one or more of the loaches have done this as they all stayed in that big hollow tree and there I havent seen my Rams go in there once in the 17 hours I had them.. So this morning i pulled out the one large hollow tree ornament and the loaches swam to the smaller tree ornament I have, after about an hour i find the pleco in the same ornament with the loaches although he could be in any of the empty pots. Not sure what to do at this point. Thinking about taking the ohter ornament out any buying a few more pots.

Another option is to switch the L333 with a clown loach I have in another tank which has a clown pleco, red tailed shark, and a betta.

please help.
Thanks

Tom

[nebula72]

I just put the L333 in a floating breeder tank to make sure no one picks on him. Although hes still small he looks kind of uncomfortable at the top of the tank in a floater. I put some gravel in there and Im trying to find something small to use for cover (small enoungh where it wont weigh the tank down.

[FishGirl-Seattle]

Not related to the question at hand, but clown loaches don't do well alone, they need a school, and at 12 inches fully grown a 29g can't accomodate even one comfortably so (1) I wouldn't put the clown loach in your 29g and (2) I hope the poor clown has at least 3 or four friends in the tank he is currently in and that the tank is at least 100g. With 12 inches of Botias (yours will get 4 inches each), an L333 (6 inches fully grown), and 5 GBRs, 4 Neons (not an adequate size school for these schooling fish) and a Gourami your tank is both overstocked and inappropriately stocked. The Botias, Rams, and L33 all require caves and hiding holes, your 29G is going to be short on the real estate necessary to provide enough individual territories far enough apart to accommodate them. Also, 2 pairs of GBRs require 40 gallons, you have a potential 2 pair plus a loner, they are cichlids and territorial, their aggression is going to tear your tank apart, if they survive. 4 Neons is too few for a proper school - they will be nervous and stressed, especially when the ram aggression takes off. IMHO you have some serious tank issues, especially with the addition of the Rams. Do you have any other tanks that can take the Botias? Do you have a mature stable tank that can take 2 of the Rams? I would re-home or return 3 of the Rams unless you have enough tanks to place them separately or as a pair and a loner separately. If the Botias consistently attack the L33 you will need to separate them into different tanks. My guess is there just isn't enough real estate on the tank bottom to accommodate so many scavengers. How long has this tank been established? Have the Botias been in there the whole time or are they a new addition? Sometimes adding a new fish to an established tank puts the new addition at a competitive disadvantage - if there is a shortage of real estate this can increase the aggression.

[rothenb1]

Fish Girl is 100% on the ball with everything she said.

Are the neons and the dwarf gourami still in the tank? Neons are rather small and I wouldn't be surprised if the gourami killed them. They can be very mean.

Also, if you do keep the loaches, I'd remove that ornaments. Loaches like to hide, and a hole like that is perfect. So perfect that, in fact, they can get stuck and may die in there. I once had to smash an ornament to pieces to get a clown loach out. If they thought the pleco was too close to their favorite spot, they probably would pick on him.

Plecos generally like to hide as well.

If you decide to keep these fish, a) plan on getting at least a 4 foot tank some time in the near future b) make caves that the loaches can easily get in and out of

If you can't get a larger tank, I'd rehome the pleco and the loaches. Both species of fish can reach 6 inches, though the loaches might max out at 5. Either way, that's still too large for a 29 gallon. It's not the amount of gallons that really matters, it's the "footprint", or how long the tank is, especially if you have bottom dwelling fish like loaches.

A 29 gallon is a good size for a couple schools (6+) of tetras. You could add some corydoras catfish if you're into bottom dwellers.

Good luck! Keep us updated.

[nebula72]

The tank has been running for about a year with the dwarf gourami. The neons are actually almost the same size in length as the gourami and dont see the gourami getting any bigger. The L333 has been in there for about 2 weeks before the Botias. As for the Rams I have made a typo. I have 4 rams (1 Male and 3 Female). I didnt think I would have any aggression issues as I have been running 4 bolivians in my other 29 gallon along with some rummy nose tetras and small chain loaches for about 1 year and a half. I overfilter the heck out of the tank and perform water changes fairly often. As far as aggression with the Rams, I have never seen any except for the occasional chase amongst eash other. They would never bother with my other fish.

As of now I have the L333 in a small breeder tank and once he heals and Ill see how it goes but it looks like as of now the polka dot loaches are going back.

[nebula72]

Attached are pics of the ornaments before removed (the L333 is in the breeder tank in pic1.. the loaches are in the larger ornament). I really like the ornamants so Im thinking about plugging it up somehow. I guess rocks will do?

thanks

Tom

PS Actually I mixed up the numbers in my first post. I have 5 tetras and 4 Rams (3 with pink bellies) and the tetras are actually cardinals. Sorry about that.. was typing before thinking as I was scrambling this morning.

[FishGirl-Seattle]

Bolivians are easy compared to GBR's, you don't have enough room for 4 Rams and when two pair off they will likely kill the remaining females. I think you may have to find a new tank for the Botias. If you re-home them and 2 of the rams you could add a couple more Neons, your tank will have a much better balance and your L333 will be happier. That's a gorgeous fish, I think you would be happier in the long run with him healthy and happy! Is your other tank able to accommodate the Botias?

[nebula72]

It looks very likely that the botias are going back. As for the RAMS could i just get rid of the male and keep 3 females instead?

As for the other tank I would say that I would not have enough room (I dont want to mess with the bolivian tank as things are running too well and the other tank has the 1 clown loach and the red tailed which are starting to outgrow the tank. Im thinking about getting a larger tank (>55 gallons) but I dont plan on it until after the summer.

As for the clowns, I had a 3 but one died last year and I gave one to my cousin who has a huge tank as he got too big for mine.

[nebula72]

I took the Botia back to the LFS last night. I was planning on taking back at least one of the female rams but when I came back from work I saw 2 of the Rams in the back of the tank with some eggs (see pic). As of now I still have the 4 rams (1M-3F) in with the neons, dwarf gourami and a much happier juvie L333. Im not sure what to do now as I disturbed the heck out of my tank trying to catch the 3 botia (eco complete sediment was all over). Any advise on what to do with the eggs would be most apprieciated as this is the first time I had rams and have owned them for less than a week.

thank you all for your knowledge and help.

Tom

[nebula72]

Heres the pic.

[FishGirl-Seattle]

Congrats on the spawing! :shappy: That's your fish's way of saying they think everything is perfect!! Keep an eye on the pair - GBR's get really territorial when they spawn - they are excellent parents and this is when they are most likely to go after the others. It is not uncommon for the first few spawnings to be unsuccessful so don't be worried if you don't see fry from this. You may get fry or you may not, but if you don't it's not a reflection on your tank so much as it is their inexperience and youth. Enjoy the moment !