Clown Killed Bulldog

[HeinzP]

Posted earlier asking if the two would be compatible together. Purchased
the bulldog 3 days ago and added him to my 30 gal tank which has homed
the clown for nearly a year. Yesterday both plecos were out in the open on my driftwood, unusual for the clown because he always hides in the shade of the log. Today found the bulldog belly up on the bottom of the tank dead, and the clown sucking on the side glass. Removed the dead bulldog and the clown swam back down to his usual resting spot under the log.


Could this clown have been territorial aggressive towards the bulldog and
killed him? Is his death the cause of something else??

[Brhino]

any sign of damage to the dead fish? missing fins, chewed up skin/eyes, that kind of thing? There's a lot of reasons a fish could end up dead shortly after introduction.

[Brhino]

also, what's your current stocking? Am I reading your sig right, 6 different species of barbs? How many of each species?

EDIT: I see your full stocking list in your profile. You've got many different barb species in groups of 1's and 2's. Being without a significant number of the same species will make for stressed barbs, and stressed barbs are nippy barbs. If I had to guess, I'd blame the barbs before I blamed the pleco.

[HeinzP]

also, what's your current stocking? Am I reading your sig right, 6 different species of barbs? How many of each species?

Didn't inspect the fish too much, just flushed him. He seemed intact, no damage.

6 species of Barb, a few of each total of 10. 2 Kribensis. 2 species of cory, 2 each. One clown pleco.

17 fish in my 30 Gal. A bit overstocked, all fish get along fine with no problems except the newly introduce now deceased Bulldog, used to have a pitbull pleco and he disappeared after introducing the Clown.

[EmmanuelJB]

It definatly could have been the clown pleco. Some plecos are more agressive than others. I have a BN pleco that is extremly agrerssive, that would probably kill any other pleco in the tank... There are a million other possibilities though. Did you aclimate the pleco right? Are the Tank Parimeters ok? Did the fish look ok in the store?

[HeinzP]

It definatly could have been the clown pleco. Some plecos are more agressive than others. I have a BN pleco that is extremly agrerssive, that would probably kill any other pleco in the tank... There are a million other possibilities though. Did you aclimate the pleco right? Are the Tank Parimeters ok? Did the fish look ok in the store?

Acclimated the pleco by floating his bag for 10 mins, adding tank water to his bag for 10 mins, then netting him into the tank. Parameters are great. He looked good when I brought him home, but seemed to have what looked like sand on his body though separate from his spots. He was a petsmart fish and I don't trust buying anything ALIVE from there!

[EmmanuelJB]

Didn't inspect the fish too much, just flushed him. He seemed intact, no damage.

6 species of Barb, a few of each total of 10. 2 Kribensis. 2 species of cory, 2 each. One clown pleco.

17 fish in my 30 Gal. A bit overstocked, all fish get along fine with no problems except the newly introduce now deceased Bulldog, used to have a pitbull pleco and he disappeared after introducing the Clown.
If the pleco isn't damged at all then a doubt the clown had anything to do with it.

No offense but you tank is not stocked very well at all. You have too many types of fish, and need to get rid of some of them, and get more to complete schools of others. Barbs can be agressive especially if not in propper schools so your problem with the pleco could of been there. I would keep ONE species of barb, and get rid of the rest...

Also how often do you do water changes and how much do you take out?

[EmmanuelJB]

Acclimated the pleco by floating his bag for 10 mins, adding tank water to his bag for 10 mins, then netting him into the tank. Parameters are great. He looked good when I brought him home, but seemed to have what looked like sand on his body though separate from his spots. He was a petsmart fish and I don't trust buying anything ALIVE from there!
Aclimating for 20 minutes is not enough... I would read up more about aclimating fish. Also, if you don't trust buying anything alive there, then why buy fish there, and ask questions about why they are dead lol?

[HeinzP]

Aclimating for 20 minutes is not enough... I would read up more about aclimating fish. Also, if you don't trust buying anything alive there, then why buy fish there, and ask questions about why they are dead lol?


The fish was cheap and I definitely sped through the acclimation process.

[tanks4thememories]

Good questions Briho.

I would just like to add a few comments:

- If you have more than a few fish it is a good idea to use a QT/Hosp tank

- Its not uncommon for fish to die or become sick within the first 30- 44 days of purchase, due to Disease and/or acclimation thus the reason for having a QT/Hosp Tank.

- For the above reasons in my house we seldom name a new fish before the QT period has expired. The children are told "lets wait and see if he decides to stay with us before we get too attached"

- Although aggression among Plecos is uncommon between subspecies it does occur especially when they are similar in size and appearance (If you will notice in the info sheets on many plecos it says "May be Aggressive towards their own species" - This is a good hint it may also be aggressive towards a similar Pleco).

- An overstocked tank can often lead to aggressive behavior in otherwise non aggressive fish. Especially towards fish that occupy the same strata of the tank (in this case the bottom).

[HeinzP]

If the pleco isn't damged at all then a doubt the clown had anything to do with it.

No offense but you tank is not stocked very well at all. You have too many types of fish, and need to get rid of some of them, and get more to complete schools of others. Barbs can be agressive especially if not in propper schools so your problem with the pleco could of been there. I would keep ONE species of barb, and get rid of the rest...

Also how often do you do water changes and how much do you take out?

All the barbs school well together, rarely nippy except the odessa.

Water change twice a week, every 3 days, of 30% - 40%.

[Brhino]

your acclimation process could be improved, no doubt, but I would think that if that were the issue you would have seen problems immediately after introducing him, not 3 days later. Without any visible damage on the fish I tend to think your other fish aren't to blame either. It's possible, as you suspect, that you may have just bought an unhealthy fish. I agree with Emmanuel about your stocking, though. You posted a stocking list a few months ago that had 10 tiger barbs and none of the other assorted species of barbs. What happened?

[HeinzP]

Good questions Briho.

I would just like to add a few comments:

- If you have more than a few fish it is a good idea to use a QT/Hosp tank

- Its not uncommon for fish to die or become sick within the first 30- 44 days of purchase, due to Disease and/or acclimation thus the reason for having a QT/Hosp Tank.

- For the above reasons in my house we seldom name a new fish before the QT period has expired. The children are told "lets wait and see if he decides to stay with us before we get too attached"

- Although aggression among Plecos is uncommon between subspecies it does occur especially when they are similar in size and appearance (If you will notice in the info sheets on many plecos it says "May be Aggressive towards their own species" - This is a good hint it may also be aggressive towards a similar Pleco).

- An overstocked tank can often lead to aggressive behavior in otherwise non aggressive fish. Especially towards fish that occupy the same strata of the tank (in this case the bottom).


The bottom of the tank is occupied by the Clown, Cory cats, and Kribs. Perhaps the Bulldog was a bit much to add to the mix.

[HeinzP]

your acclimation process could be improved, no doubt, but I would think that if that were the issue you would have seen problems immediately after introducing him, not 3 days later. Without any visible damage on the fish I tend to think your other fish aren't to blame either. It's possible, as you suspect, that you may have just bought an unhealthy fish. I agree with Emmanuel about your stocking, though. You posted a stocking list a few months ago that had 10 tiger barbs and none of the other assorted species of barbs. What happened?


The ten tiger barbs was just a broad explanation for my stocking. There have always been tigers, albino, and green species together. Added the other species of barbs over time.

I've never had any problems with the barbs, except the male odessa who only chases the barbs. The barbs don't nip any of the other fish.

The kribs were nippy and territorial when they bred, but haven't been a trouble since.

[tanks4thememories]

The bottom of the tank is occupied by the Clown, Cory cats, and Kribs. Perhaps the Bulldog was a bit much to add to the mix.

One more comment on overstocking:
The negative effects of overstocking can be very deceptive.
Its not just about aggression or instant illness. Effects can take the form of any of the following:
Mysterious illnesses
Chronic: parasitic, fungal, and bacterial infections
Aggression
Depression
stunted growth
lethargy
Just to name a few

A good additional rule of thumb to keep in mind (besides the many others you have most likely already herd) is if fish would be gasping for air without additional aeration then you are likely over stocked. African Cichlid tanks are exempt from this rule.

[HeinzP]

One more comment on overstocking:
The negative effects of overstocking can be very deceptive.
Its not just about aggression or instant illness. Effects can take the form of any of the following:
Mysterious illnesses
Chronic: parasitic, fungal, and bacterial infections
Aggression
Depression
stunted growth
lethargy
Just to name a few

A good additional rule of thumb to keep in mind (besides the many others you have most likely already herd) is if fish would be gasping for air without additional aeration then you are likely over stocked. African Cichlid tanks are exempt from this rule.

Besides everyone's opinion on my tank being improperly stocked, is it overstocked?

If, the 10 barbs were all tigers with the kribs, corys, and pleco would I still be in the same boat?

[Brhino]

it's borderline, I think. It's not overstocked, in my opinion, but it's certainly full. What have you got for filtration?

[HeinzP]

it's borderline, I think. It's not overstocked, in my opinion, but it's certainly full. What have you got for filtration?

Two Aquaclear 200 HOB Filters

[tanks4thememories]

Besides everyone's opinion on my tank being improperly stocked, is it overstocked?

If, the 10 barbs were all tigers with the kribs, corys, and pleco would I still be in the same boat?

I cant really say. I agree with Brhino I would at least say it is quite full...lol I try to avoid saying someone is "overstocked" unless they are obviously in that condition. I think the word is often OVER USED...lol Instead I prefer to let them know how to judge for themselves. I figure its your fish you wouldn't be here if you didn't care about them, so with proper information the aquarist will make their own decisions that are best for them and and their fish.

I cant stress the importance of quarantine enough though.

[Brhino]

You're comfortably over-filtered, then. The total number of fish doesn't concern me, just the fact that you've got 1s and 2s of shoaling species. Others may disagree.

[Rue]

Not to take away from the serious nature of the question;

I really had to laugh at your title...:hmm3grin2orange:

[EmmanuelJB]

Not to take away from the serious nature of the question;

I really had to laugh at your title...:hmm3grin2orange:
lol Rue! I didn't even think of it that way until I read your post lol. A Clown Killing a Bulldog would be quite a site. :hmm3grin2orange:

[HeinzP]

You're comfortably over-filtered, then. The total number of fish doesn't concern me, just the fact that you've got 1s and 2s of shoaling species. Others may disagree.

Besides the Odessa and two gold barbs, all the similarly shaped barbs do swim together as a school. The odessa is aggressive, always has been. The gold barbs are an inseparable pair.

I've had this set up for quite sometime and never had any injuries or deaths. Always been under the impression, Tiger Green or Albino barbs were pretty much the same species with different colors??

Would removing odessa and golds to add more of other barbs (more than 3, perhaps 5-6) be a BAD IDEA?

[Brhino]

Tiger barbs, albino tiger barbs, and green tiger barbs are all the same species (Puntius tetrazona) and will all school together. There's also another barb with the common name "green barb" that is a different species, Puntius semifasciolatus. If your "green barbs" are shaped like your tiger barbs, then they're probably actually green tiger barbs and they're good to school. Yes, sometimes green tiger barbs are just called green barbs. Hooray for common names!

The black ruby barb, although it has a similar shape, is a different species, Puntius nigrofasciatus. They may still school, but this is actually a sign of stress, not a good thing. A fish that schools with a different species does so because it is desperate for whatever measure of safety it can find, not because it is content. This goes for your gold barbs if they're schooling as well.

Overall, consolidating your barbs into fewer species would be a good thing. Adding a lot more fish to the tank would be a bad thing, but there's no fine line. It's not like you're okay to add 3 more fish, but if you add 4 they'll all die. It's more like, each fish you add adds a little bit to the crowdedness of the tank and slightly increases the risk for illness and aggression. Think of it as the difference between smoking 10 cigarettes a day and smoking 11 cigarettes a day. Either way it's not great for your health, but there's no set point between health and death. It's up to you to monitor your water parameters and fish behavior and decide where that point is. People have looked at your list and they think you're at the limit or close to it, but ultimately the choice is yours.

[HeinzP]

Turns out the Bulldog I bought had Ich, I was curious to the spots on him that looked almost like sand... same sandy spots are now on my clown and barbs. Tank is now quarantined and under treatment.

[EmmanuelJB]

Turns out the Bulldog I bought had Ich, I was curious to the spots on him that looked almost like sand... same sandy spots are now on my clown and barbs. Tank is now quarantined and under treatment.
That really sucks! Next time make sure you quarntine new fish! Especially if you are getting them from what you consider an unreliable place like petsmart.

[Jeddi]

Not to take away from the serious nature of the question;

I really had to laugh at your title...:hmm3grin2orange:
LOL. Glad to know I'm not the only one! :hmm3grin2orange:

[HeinzP]

That really sucks! Next time make sure you quarntine new fish! Especially if you are getting them from what you consider an unreliable place like petsmart.

I'm not lucky enough to have a separate tank to quarantine. What are my options when introducing new fish?

[EmmanuelJB]

I'm not lucky enough to have a separate tank to quarantine. What are my options when introducing new fish?
Just buy fish from VERY reliable places and look VERY closley at the fish before you by them. Thats really the only thing you can do, although 10 gallons are around 10 dollars at walmart, so you could set up a very simple 10 gallon quarntine for cheap.

[Jeddi]

Just buy fish from VERY reliable places and look VERY closley at the fish before you by them. Thats really the only thing you can do, although 10 gallons are around 10 dollars at walmart, so you could set up a very simple 10 gallon quarntine for cheap.
10 gallons for 10 dollars? You're kidding me, right? o_O

[EmmanuelJB]

10 gallons for 10 dollars? You're kidding me, right? o_O
Well, its more like $14.00, but they are around 10-15 dollars, im not exactly sure how much.

[tanks4thememories]

You can buy a complete 10 gal setup for 20.00 on creigs list or get one for free from "Freecycle."

[HeinzP]

Just buy fish from VERY reliable places and look VERY closley at the fish before you by them. Thats really the only thing you can do, although 10 gallons are around 10 dollars at walmart, so you could set up a very simple 10 gallon quarntine for cheap.


Wouldn't a quarantine tank still need a filter for it?

[EmmanuelJB]

Wouldn't a quarantine tank still need a filter for it?
Yes but you could buy cheap sponge filter, and run it on your main tank until your QT is needed.

[little hawaii]

like playing Russian rouletee. The reason Pet Smart or bigbox fish tend to fair worse than other suppliers is their filter system. They run ultraviolet sterilizers on all their tanks. That is great for them as it cuts down on loses but bad for us. I believe that it lowers a fishes imune defences when there is not a trace of disease in the water from the ultra violet sterilizers. You take them home and the first virus they run into they croak. I always ask if a place uses UV before I buy from them, then way the risks or quarantine for 2 weeks.

[HeinzP]

like playing Russian rouletee. The reason Pet Smart or bigbox fish tend to fair worse than other suppliers is their filter system. They run ultraviolet sterilizers on all their tanks. That is great for them as it cuts down on loses but bad for us. I believe that it lowers a fishes imune defences when there is not a trace of disease in the water from the ultra violet sterilizers. You take them home and the first virus they run into they croak. I always ask if a place uses UV before I buy from them, then way the risks or quarantine for 2 weeks.


I was always curious if those UV sterilizers ended up screwing customers. Thanks for your input.

[HeinzP]

Could a 5 gal. bucket with a HOB filter be a quarantine tank?

[Dave66]

Doubt any fish killed the bulldog pleco, since they are only hardy once well established. I've heard tons and tons of stories of them dying in days or weeks, since the length of travel leaves them starving on import.

You don't want a power filter of any kind with a quarantine tank. Air driven sponge filters are gentle enough for fish recovering from the stresses of capture and travel. Standard is to QT two weeks.

Just buy a ten gallon tank and use it for QT. You don't even need a light or substrate for it. Even with air pump and sponge filter you can set up a 10 gallon QT in under 20 bucks; far under if you shop.

My QT's have a chunk of driftwood in for cover and are bare bottomed tanks.

Dave

[HeinzP]

Doubt any fish killed the bulldog pleco, since they are only hardy once well established. I've heard tons and tons of stories of them dying in days or weeks, since the length of travel leaves them starving on import.

You don't want a power filter of any kind with a quarantine tank. Air driven sponge filters are gentle enough for fish recovering from the stresses of capture and travel. Standard is to QT two weeks.

Just buy a ten gallon tank and use it for QT. You don't even need a light or substrate for it. Even with air pump and sponge filter you can set up a 10 gallon QT in under 20 bucks; far under if you shop.

My QT's have a chunk of driftwood in for cover and are bare bottomed tanks.

Dave


Pretty sure the bulldog was ill or had a weak immune system that lead to illness and that is why it died.

I'm not familiar with sponge filters, is it a self contained system or driven by a powerhead?

[tanks4thememories]

Pretty sure the bulldog was ill or had a weak immune system that lead to illness and that is why it died.

I'm not familiar with sponge filters, is it a self contained system or driven by a powerhead?


You have most likely seen them but didn't know what it was. They are used a lot with breeders and Mom and PoP LFS. They come in a huge variety of colors and shapes. http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/vL6bC9JVP8MfvpIyxu5wjJ41Vbv6KDDG1xZg7aI43TDXI-7w6pNoJDs4xgpX3nh3yMA8Z1FKMpPD-xz7dR3vs-DF_HUzdR7EOeGS-onbhtZnJKbilrAbU7Kp7TSpHS4zipFBTCancgskakidUokPzZz 0Vkp6K9Z4Dw9xEazA1dsM3UWcVVc6Qn9nzLfC1Cs4wF8hQ6rvg vUcOjtdFgya2V6m
It's just a sponge you connect your air hose to and sit it in the bottom of your tank. The air creates a flow which sucks aquarium water into the sponge and then up through the tube along with the bubbles. BB colonizes the sponge - Poof Sponge filter.