Goldfish... why do you suppose?

[tortoise]

Hello. I'm new here. This one plagues me, thus my post.

In the several thousand years of goldfish keeping, no one has developed a breed that can actually be kept in a bowl.

Goldfish are a species that are identified with the bowl, yet of course we know the bowl is inappropriate for their care.

Why?

Not: "Why can't we keep goldfish in a bowl?" but rather, "Why has no one developed a bowl-hardy" species? There are so many types, that the fact that a dwarf, etc. doesn't exist is maddening to me.

It seems like a natural.

I want one. Don't you? :goldfish: :sconfused: :goldfish:

[Lady Hobbs]

Because no one has invented the one inch goldfish.

No, I do not want a fish crammed in a bowl.

[Scrup]

Goldfish are dwarfs as it is. Carp as a whole are not small fish.

What you are talking about is the equivalent of breeding a horse the size of a chihuahua, or a cat the size of a bee.

Taking an 18"+ fish and breeding it down to about an inch. Nothing really natural about that.

[Wild Turkey]

The issue with the bowl isnt necessarily just the size. The lack of filtration and the bowl being open on all sides is certainly no good for fish as well. Since bowls also do not have lids, if you could get it filtered you would probably have issues with evaporation.

Goldfish are just naturally large fish, its sad that people have learned to associate them with bowls.

Nano fish on the other hand are much more appropriate for a bowl-sized enclosure, though I still would steer clear of bowls.

[Lab_Rat]

I know what you mean. Afterall, we have kittens that can live in glass jars...

http://lolosad.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/bonsai.jpg

I think we should invest millions of dollars into research to formulate a goldfish that can live in a bowl.

Wait!!! I found goldfish that can live in a bowl. A fish shaped bowl even! Oh how ironic! You can even overstock and you don't need to add water.

http://images.teamsugar.com/files/users/1/15259/45_2007/goldfishbowl.jpg

[Lady Hobbs]

:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

[Wild Turkey]

Bonzai kittens are an internet myth started by a bunch of MIT grads, not real.


It doesnt make the image of the kittens being shoved into the jars for the photos any less offensive though. :(

[Brhino]

sometimes kittens enter confined spaces on their own accord.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c376/starmike82/milk.jpg

[Lab_Rat]

Bonzai kittens are an internet myth started by a bunch of MIT grads, not real.


It doesnt make the image of the kittens being shoved into the jars for the photos any less offensive though. :(

What do you mean it's not real? I just paypal'ed a bunch of money for a dozen of them. They're gonna line my bookshelves in lieu of vases.

You may want to close your eyes for this image then...it's just horrible how they're wedging full grown cats into itty bitty spaces. I mean, kittens are small and easily wedged into small glass jars, but full grown cats, OMG!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3535/3865622992_a54c1c9f9a.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/89/271867510_04a29f18e3.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4057/4341660808_9b30b3e341.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2459/3593564002_22e01976a2.jpg

I think I may just be sick...that poor cat in the last one is even shrink wrapped in the box...

[Lab_Rat]

Actually, I should have ordered the beer glass kitten...would have looked better than a square shaped one.

http://www.hizone.info/data/2003/07/09/images/cat_in_a_bottle.jpg

[Lady Hobbs]

That one cat crammed in that jar is sleeping! He must like it. But, the point is well taken here that cramming an animal into too small a space is stupid just as trying to stick a goldfish in a bowl is.

[Lindsey]

I know what you mean. Afterall, we have kittens that can live in glass jars...

http://lolosad.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/bonsai.jpg


The black and white one looks exactly like my cat Lucy! And I can imagine him climbing into a jar for a cozy place to take a nap :hmm3grin2orange:


The issue with the bowl isnt necessarily just the size. The lack of filtration and the bowl being open on all sides is certainly no good for fish as well. Since bowls also do not have lids, if you could get it filtered you would probably have issues with evaporation.

Goldfish are just naturally large fish, its sad that people have learned to associate them with bowls.

Nano fish on the other hand are much more appropriate for a bowl-sized enclosure, though I still would steer clear of bowls.

I would actually be okay with keeping a 1" fish in a large bowl, well over a gallon in size, and you could filter a bowl that size with a small sponge filter. However, if we actually had 1" goldfish, no way would I want one in a bowl, I'd want a nice sized group of them in a tank.

I love the look and personality of goldfish, and would absolutely fill a tank with them if I had the room!

[Aminax]

I think a miniature goldfish (in spite of a goldfish being a miniature carp) would be a cute/worthy endeavor.

:14:

However, having said that, allow me to expand with two points:

First, I would like to highlight a pitfall many beginner level aquarium enthusiasts may find themselves in: fish, like other living forms, need more than just water to survive. They need food, circulating water, oxygenation, proper chemicals/lack of chemicals in the water, something stimulating to do in their captivation. Without the risk of predators or the competition to mate, life in a plain, ol' bowl is not worth living. What you have is a very unhappy organism. As a wannabe biologist "unhappy" is a term I don't really like to use. As a person who loves animals, it's the best one.

Second, it would be really, really nice to have a pet that didn't require any or very little maintenance. On the spectrum of possible pets, fish (varies according to species of course) are generally on the "easy-beginner" side of things. However, some care is necessary. Even if you were to get a plant, even a cactus, in order to nurture it, you have to provide the basic needs of that organism. The more you invest in the care of your pet (snake, chinchilla, snail, tulip, whatever), the more you get out of it. A fish in a bowl isn't much of an investment. By investment, I mean more than cash. Invest time, thought and extra effort. You may surprise yourself.

In other words, if you want a pet that does okay in a glass bowl; a pet that doesn't need a lot of food, attention or other types of care; if all you want is a pet that you can break out to impress your friends and never have to worry about it otherwise.... if that's the ideal pet for you: get a rock.

And I'm not saying that to the author of this post specifically, but anyone, really.

Sorry to take a heavy-handed approach to this than the repliers before me. I'm always a big fan of humor, but figured it couldn't hurt to address this and clunk in my two cents.

Um.... blub, then.
Carry on.

[hari-goshi]

I know what you mean. Afterall, we have kittens that can live in glass jars...

http://lolosad.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/bonsai.jpg

I think we should invest millions of dollars into research to formulate a goldfish that can live in a bowl.

Wait!!! I found goldfish that can live in a bowl. A fish shaped bowl even! Oh how ironic! You can even overstock and you don't need to add water.

http://images.teamsugar.com/files/users/1/15259/45_2007/goldfishbowl.jpg
Incredible post!

[Little Embers]

Tortoise….I hope you know, that nobody here is making fun of you personally (it may come across that way), but just trying to show how absurd and cruel it is to keep goldfish in a bowl, even though they are associated with bowls (heck you still see adverts and TV shows that have a goldfish in a bowl sitting on a table and pet stores still selling bowls that include a free goldfish with it). Any true aquarist takes this subject very seriously and we all feel that it is just downright inhumane, hence the responses you have gotten.

Regarding trying to breed a goldfish that would be appropriate for a bowl, as pointed out by other members….a bowl is just unsuitable for any fish, for so many reasons! Goldfish are the size they are and we should accommodate their needs accordingly, not try to change them to suit our needs or wants! I think we have played “God” with nature for our own selfish pleasures long enough…..Why can’t we just let nature be the way “Mother Nature” intended!

[Brhino]

Goldfish are the size they are and we should accommodate their needs accordingly, not try to change them to suit our needs or wants! I think we have played “God” with nature for our own selfish pleasures long enough…..Why can’t we just let nature be the way “Mother Nature” intended!

That's sort of a funny position to take with goldfish, since they are the way they are due to a thousand years of selective breeding.

[robflanker]

That's sort of a funny position to take with goldfish, since they are the way they are due to a thousand years of selective breeding.
Do you have proof they were massively different thousands of years ago? Thats the only way I think you convincingly show humans have selectively bred them to be the size they are now...
I can't prove they haven't changed size either but before you start claiming selective breeding - id like to see proof...

[Brhino]

Goldfish are derived from the Prussian Carp, Carassius gibelio.
http://www.fishbase.org/summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=6376

Looks like "common" goldfish are about the same size as prussian carp, although the shape's a bit different and of course there's the issue of coloration, which is what they were selectively bred for in ancient china in the first place.

And then of course there's fancy goldfish, which, depending on the type, are either slightly or significantly smaller than common goldfish and prussian carp. So, yes. Goldfish have been selectively bred, and as a result many (but not all) types are smaller than the original wild form.

[Little Embers]

If selective breeding is due to nature over the course of a thousand years and not from our own intervention/interference, I don't have a problem with that.

In regards to the goldfish in particular.. they are the size they are now, whether it's due to nature or human intervention...I don't think we need to try and come up with a way to make them any smaller just to suit us....There are far more important issues in the world that need addressing.

[Wild Turkey]

I don't think we need to try and come up with a way to make them any smaller just to suit us....There are far more important issues in the world that need addressing.

I agree.

The tactics involved in making a species into a dwarf arent really all that pleasant either. Poor and/or cramped conditions and low amounts of food are where you would start.

Thats why I wont buy dwarf platys even though I am kind of partial to them.

[robflanker]

Goldfish are derived from the Prussian Carp, Carassius gibelio.
http://www.fishbase.org/summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=6376

Looks like "common" goldfish are about the same size as prussian carp, although the shape's a bit different and of course there's the issue of coloration, which is what they were selectively bred for in ancient china in the first place.

And then of course there's fancy goldfish, which, depending on the type, are either slightly or significantly smaller than common goldfish and prussian carp. So, yes. Goldfish have been selectively bred, and as a result many (but not all) types are smaller than the original wild form.
Your link says nothing about selective breeding or that common goldfish are derived from them and we have evolutionary pushed them down the road they went down in terms of size.

[Brhino]

are you arguing that there's no proof that goldfish are the result of selective breeding? That's just common knowledge. That would be equivalent to arguing that there's no proof that poodles have been selectively bread from wolves.

[Aminax]

I think we have played “God” with nature for our own selfish pleasures long enough…..Why can’t we just let nature be the way “Mother Nature” intended!

Well, if you're going to protest against selective breeding and/or the classic fishbowl, why not protest against keeping fish at all? A miniature habitat in a glass or plastic container isn't what Mother Nature intended either no matter how many rocks, plants or different stimuli/adjustments added. I'm not trying to be condescending or self-righteous, just asking where you, or anyone else, personally draw the line in the interest of a cool-headed rhetoric.

[Little Embers]

Well, if you're going to protest against selective breeding and/or the classic fishbowl, why not protest against keeping fish at all? A miniature habitat in a glass or plastic container isn't what Mother Nature intended either no matter how many rocks, plants or different stimuli/adjustments added. I'm not trying to be condescending or self-righteous, just asking where you, or anyone else, personally draw the line in the interest of a cool-headed rhetoric.
My comment (whether you class it as protesting or not), was simply in response to the OP’s question and I still feel that there is no reason why we should interfere with nature any more than we already have, by genetically altering a fish by whatever means, just to make it smaller so that it can fit into a bowl…To me, that is just being selfish.

Honestly! I do feel that it is wrong to keep any fish in a tank for that matter, with no possibility of escape from danger (in whatever form that may take) as opposed to their natural habitat, and yes! I can see the hypocrisy behind my statement, as I have obviously kept fish myself, but it is human nature to want/need to be around nature/animals and to keep pets for many different reasons. It is also human nature for us to usually find a way to rationalize or justify the things we do, so that we can feel better about doing them….it may not mean that it is the right thing to do though!

[Lady Hobbs]

No fish belong in a bowl that can not be filtered and cycled. Even a sponge filter will not work in a bowl because of the way the bowl is shaped unless it sat right in the center of the tank leaving even less space for the fish to swim. Fish bowls are great for spare change. Or a bowl of candy. Or marbles and a plant.

The OP has gone. Apparently he did not like the idea that we thought altering goldfish to grow to one inch was not a good idea. May as well get a Great Dane and try to turn him into a miniture poodle.

[xchairity_casex]

not trying to offend ne one but personally i dont really see any harm in selctive breeding anything maybe not breeding a goldfish to be able to live in a bowl persay but maybe breed one that is smaller. you wouldnt have to start breeding fish in cramped or dirty tanks just breed good healthy fish take the smallest from the batch and breed it too another small fish then go from there. though i agree it would be very difficult work to do it correctly while keeping it healthy for the fish themselves but it would be no differant from breeding for differant colors. and we can see that goldfish dont really develope differant bone structures from age 1 year to age 10 years there bodies stay relativly the same unlike dogs or other species that would become somewhat deformed from the size differance. what would this benefit? well more goldfish would be kept in better situations since people could keep them in smaller tanks i mean goldfish are always going to be massivly over bred thats just the way it is regardless of if people go out and be responsable about them at least by breeding a small type that can live comfortably in a 10 or 20 gallon more fish would be kept in healthy happy conditions. again i am not trying to offend anyones opinions i am just staing my own. ps please note i said nothing about keeping fish in bowls

[tortoise]

...

The OP has gone. Apparently he did not like the idea that we thought altering goldfish to grow to one inch was not a good idea. May as well get a Great Dane and try to turn him into a miniture poodle.

No, I've been checking in. I was just taken aback by the level of hostility, irrationality and self-righteousness on a fishkeeping board. Altering one to grow to one inch is immoral, while altering one to grow to six, or to have bubble eyes or, insert your favorite here, is not?

Madness.

Great Dane into a Poodle? Yes, that's precisely what we've done... over and over, and only after we engineered the Great Dane too.

[Brhino]

I do agree that fancy goldfish are the way they are now due to selective breeding, and for that matter the same can be said for every species of dog and cat we know and love. It is a little silly, as you say, to say that breeding a 6-inch telescope eye goldfish is okay but breeding a 1-inch goldfish is not.

I think the source of the "hostility, irrationality and self-righteousness" that you see is the fact that a bowl is simply an inhumane environment for ANY fish, regardless of its size and durability. There is no filtration or water agitation, the shape does not support good oxygenation, and maintenance and water changes are generally non-existent.

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with desiring a goldfish selectively bred to the 1" size. However, the goldfish bowl is a symbol of all the cruelties inflicted on fish by uninformed fish keepers (which includes almost all of us in our earlier days), so desiring to keep a fish in one is not something we look favorably on.

[Wild Turkey]

The process of making a fish a dwarf usually begins with cramped and or purposely poor conditions, with little food.

Its not comparable to breeding out a color, fin length or other characteristics imo, because the fish dont need to suffer to give birth to brighter, or longer finned fry.

Its not like breeding a poodle from a great dane, its like taking a great dane and locking it in a crate with little food so it doesnt grow. Its simply not the same imo.

[Lady Hobbs]

tortoise.......there are many species of goldfish and all are different sizes. If a person does not have the tank space for the larger ones, then they should pick the species that they can accommodate. But regardless of species, a fish bowl is not suitable for any fish. Fish need filtration and nearly all need heaters. This can not be done in a bowl.

Goldfish in a bowl is almost as offensive as a Betta in a bowl. There just is no life for them contained like that.

[xchairity_casex]

The process of making a fish a dwarf usually begins with cramped and or purposely poor conditions, with little food.

Its not comparable to breeding out a color, fin length or other characteristics imo, because the fish dont need to suffer to give birth to brighter, or longer finned fry.

Its not like breeding a poodle from a great dane, its like taking a great dane and locking it in a crate with little food so it doesnt grow. Its simply not the same imo.

but why couldnt you do it like a dog or a cat? takign the smallest fish from 2 batches and breeding them together then takingthe smallest from that batch and breeding back onto the father/mother and so on and so forth sure it would take a longer time but ti could be done i see no reason why it wouldnt.