not a fish tank but an ECOSYSTEM

[gbbudd]

ANYONE WHO'S SERIOUS about fish keeping should think about where and what they want to keep and how it lives. a steril aquarium is not the best way to keep fish . like fish we human need exposure to bacterias and toxins. Though in minimal doses. look at it this way if you want to stay healthy go work in a hospital, once your body is use to being there medical works have incredible resistance to germs and disease, due to repeditive exposure. Ever know anyone willing to buy a sick fish and put it in there show tank? This i have done with fish that had ick. within 3 days he was clear no not due to any chemicals, or dips but to good water quality and diet.
ANYWAYS HERE where i put my money where my mouth is 92 gallon corner tank ,lighting is and this eveyone always says is NO GOOD is Quartz hallogen. yes it is a little yellow but a picture is worth a thousand words. Eheim canister filter. plants include FOREGROUND-
Pogostemon helferi, Pellia,Dwarf sagitaria the bronze grass i do not know what it is if anyone knows please let me know.Mid ground nesea, rotala green, water sprite-wisteria.anubias petiet, baby tears,fissden. ph is kept at 6.8 -7.0 by Co2 injection. 10 bubbles per second due to the two foot drop with the waterfalls. Yes i know the more surface movement the less Co2 concentration or more injection is needed but the water fall is A HUGE part of my system, i have always gone against the norm and found a way to work things out. ALL the plants around the tank are feed from the water fall. i water nothing ever. all runnoff drops right back into the tank. 50-70% water change weekly. 8 agoo boos, 4 peacock digeons 3 flying fox 4 otto cats 2 simease algea eaters, 20 true red nose rummies 20 haliquin razboras countless ghost shrimp and ammano shrimp. two khulii loaches and a golden piscostomous . this should about cover it at a 1/4 th the price of a reef tank the old boring fresh water tank is making it's mark in the hobby
Attached Images fish tank 239 edit.JPG (87.1 KB, 8 views)

[hungryhound]

I am not sure about the tone of your post, and what you are trying to imply, but that is a very nice planted tank. Standing on your high horse might not be the best way to introduce yourself. JMHO

The water fall is spectacular and I like what you have done with the tank. I am sure that you never have to fertilize the plants on top of the tank as well, since they are getting watered constantly with tank water.

Congratulations on an amazing setup, and welcome to the board.

[frizzlefish]

Very nice!

[nanaglen2001]

Its a nice tank indeed, but if its really an ecosystem in the way you find it in a pond or small river, I really doubt it.

Have you ever seen underwaterpics from the places our fish come from? Believe me in reality they look completely different. To be exact, most of the time one sees only gravel, sand and rocks, dead leaves and dead branches.

But as a tank, your tank is really a great sight.

Here is an interesting link, with pics how the habitats (in this case Angels and Mesonautas) really look like.

http://finarama.com/gallery/amano.htm

[sergo]

that is a stunning tank and you should be proud of it. to call it an ecosystem may be a little much and only because an ecosystem should be able to support itself without outside intervention. everything looks extremely happy and you are definitely doing some thing right. i could use some pointers, what type of ferts and scheduling are you using?

[Rue]

Nice tank...

...after everything is said and done...and all the debates are over...

...all we can conclude is:

If it works, it works! thumbs2:

[gbbudd]

The wonders of text. one person reads it as attitude another may read it as lecture yet a third can take it for what they persieve. All that i was trying to get to was to many people out there at least in my area. run to the pet store looking for a quick fix with chemicals. while drugs can be very possitive in many ways is it not best to avoid needing them? Ok so callling it an ecosystem is pushing it. but instead of fertilizers i tried an old tree stump found in my area that had been cut down a good 15 years ago. it is rotting and very soft to the touch and can be damaged easily. this was not the case when it was added to the tank a year and a half ago, as it was solid. If i did not do the water changes regularly as when i went on vacation for three weeks when i returned the tank smelled like a stagnent pool.like a dirt floor basement in an old home with rotting wood everywhere.The water fall rocks are lace rock, again not recomended for tropical fish as it can add alkalinty to the water. However all around the waterfall is peatmoss all the upper plants are growing in peat. the waterfall leaches water which inturn waters all the upper plants and adds nutrients to the plants under water. the water all endes up back into the fish tank. The substrate is latorite and florite with a cable heater. I'm A builder by trade not a chemist or a biologist. just a rough around the edges kinda guy hey it works in construction my appologies to anyone who took this post as a high horse attitude. i love creating whether it's with wood,steel , building a home , buisness or just someones dream for a new entertaiment center. this tank was my dream and so far i'm liking how it's turning out.

[hungryhound]

The wonders of text. one person reads it as attitude another may read it as lecture yet a third can take it for what they persieve.

That is the problem with a message board, all we have are words on a page. As long as you avoid yelling (capital letters) about ANYONE WHO's SERIOUS :ezpi_wink1: or add a few smilies most people will not see it as an attitude:wink2: .

The ironic part about me seeing it as a lecture is that I agree with 90 percent of what you said.

I am sorry that i took it the wrong way and I take my hat off to you :22: as you appear to be a knowledgable poster who will contribute greatly to the board.




All that i was trying to get to was to many people out there at least in my area. run to the pet store looking for a quick fix with chemicals. while drugs can be very possitive in many ways is it not best to avoid needing them?

I do agree with you that chemicals should only be used as a last last last resort and that all they do is throw money at the symptoms and not the problem.




Ok so callling it an ecosystem is pushing it.

I actually think you can call it an ecosystem, but not a natural biotope. Any way you slice it, as an aquarium it is darn impressive.




but instead of fertilizers i tried an old tree stump found in my area that had been cut down a good 15 years ago. it is rotting and very soft to the touch and can be damaged easily. this was not the case when it was added to the tank a year and a half ago, as it was solid. If i did not do the water changes regularly as when i went on vacation for three weeks when i returned the tank smelled like a stagnent pool.like a dirt floor basement in an old home with rotting wood everywhere.

ouch. It does stink that we have all of this wonderful wood lying around, but cannot use it because it will rot, and instead have to spend a lot of money to import bog wood and other water stable wood.




The water fall rocks are lace rock, again not recomended for tropical fish as it can add alkalinty to the water. However all around the waterfall is peatmoss all the upper plants are growing in peat. the waterfall leaches water which inturn waters all the upper plants and adds nutrients to the plants under water. the water all endes up back into the fish tank. The substrate is latorite and florite with a cable heater.

Once again a truly remarkable system, and you cannot argue with the results.



I'm A builder by trade not a chemist or a biologist. just a rough around the edges kinda guy hey it works in construction my appologies to anyone who took this post as a high horse attitude.

Rough around the edges works, as I can be that way some times (see first post in the thread), just mix some smilies in there and what appears to be an attitude or yelling quickly becomes all in good fun:thumb:



i love creating whether it's with wood,steel , building a home , business or just someones dream for a new entertaiment center. this tank was my dream and so far i'm liking how it's turning out.

And you have good reason to be proud of your tank.

[gbbudd]

ouch. It does stink that we have all of this wonderful wood lying around, but cannot use it because it will rot, and instead have to spend a lot of money to import bog wood and other water stable wood.


im not sure if you following here i expected and wanted the wood to rot. This is what i hoped would provide the plants with nutirients. without the need for ferts. Like the outside garden if you don't have organics in the soil the plants don't grow so well. It does how ever make you stay faithful to reg water changes because the tank can go to a complete algea bloom, very quickly. Trust me when i tell you i have to constantly prune the plants the rotala green i can cut back to little more then stubs and within two weeks or so the shoots are a good 12". this two helps remove excessive nutients and organics from the water. The water fall it's self is a natural filter as the water trickles trough it is filtered by the many plants. including some moss found right in my back yard which has to be monitered closely for it wants to take over. The draw back to the water fall is it removes c02 from the water and adds o2 i probably use 50% more co2 in my tank then most.im guessing about 10 bubbles per second

[hungryhound]

you are right I did not follow. So then I take it that you are not dosing fertilizers. That is amazing.

Are you adding trace or are you counting on the water changes to replenish those elements.

The more I understand your setup the more Impressed i become.

[Incredulous_Ed]

A very nice setup.

[Chrona]

Very nice tank. Keep in mind aquariums are far from sterile environments, and they always contain a certain level of parasites, bacteria, etc, that may remain dormant until fish are stressed.

I would also recommend some dry powder fertilizer for your macros (NPK). A rotting stump doesn't really provide a balanced or consistent source of nutrients.

[Mark Lathrop]

I actually found it kind of inspiring that you called it an ecosystem and mentioned being serious about caring for fish. It definitly will influence the way I set up my next tank this June.

[gbbudd]

Very nice tank. Keep in mind aquariums are far from sterile environments, and they always contain a certain level of parasites, bacteria, etc, that may remain dormant until fish are stressed.

I would also recommend some dry powder fertilizer for your macros (NPK). A rotting stump doesn't really provide a balanced or consistent source of nutrients.


exactly to the sterile envirment, but thats not the way many see how there tanks should be they try to kill and sterilize with chemicals. As far as adding any fertilizers i have tried even at minimal levels for long periods of time which no visual changes were noted. to add anywhere even remotly close to manufacters recomended doses and algea blomms.The tree stump is what i feel to be the source that and water changes and substrate after a year and a half i see no one suffering. The plants are not stragley, they all grow like weeds.

[nanaglen2001]

What kind of wood is that stump you mentioned. It could be an interesting experiment for my tank, even it may not fertilize anything, my Cichlids could like it.

But another thing, have you ever had the problem of not enough ferrum (for the plants I mean), if yes how do you cope with that?

[gbbudd]

im not possitive but a very educated guess would be white oak again it was cut down about 15 to 18 years ago. so any oils "sap" have definately disapated. i understand this goes against the norm what we have all been told about fresh water tanks. Look at it this way to no plants = vaccuuming the gravel,any time you say to someone i have fresh water there first thought is cleaning the tank, as they sit there cringing. planted tanks no vaccuum. though i will admitt after a year and a half i just recently vaccuumed the botttom of my tank for the first time. so far no ill effects.with plants you want the fish waste to act as ferts.I'm sure if i found the right dosage of k or Fe,or over all plant fert would give me a deeper red more pink tips to my rotala green, or make my fisden grow faster and possibly a lighter deeper green. But as you can see things are doing ok without.

[gbbudd]

ferrem? not sure what your asking

[A1cntrler]

I think she is refering to an Iron suppliment..

[gbbudd]

[QUOTE=Chrona]Very nice tank. Keep in mind aquariums are far from sterile environments, and they always contain a certain level of parasites, bacteria, etc, that may remain dormant until fish are stressed.

I would also recommend some dry powder fertilizer for your macros (NPK). A rotting stump doesn't really provide a balanced or consistent source of nutrients.[/QUOTe

i have read many a ada tank using npk this i do not have any experiance with so i can have little imput but i do know i do not see many claiming they use no ferts in any of the nicer planted aqauriums i have ever seen. From the experance i have had any addition leads to algea. i guess i'm a believer in don't fix whats not broke. but i would like to know more as to what npk actualy is

[Chrona]

[QUOTE=Chrona]Very nice tank. Keep in mind aquariums are far from sterile environments, and they always contain a certain level of parasites, bacteria, etc, that may remain dormant until fish are stressed.

I would also recommend some dry powder fertilizer for your macros (NPK). A rotting stump doesn't really provide a balanced or consistent source of nutrients.[/QUOTe

i have read many a ada tank using npk this i do not have any experiance with so i can have little imput but i do know i do not see many claiming they use no ferts in any of the nicer planted aqauriums i have ever seen. From the experance i have had any addition leads to algea. i guess i'm a believer in don't fix whats not broke. but i would like to know more as to what npk actualy is

ADA tanks do not dose nutrients from the outset because they all use ADA Aquasoil, which is highly organic and contains enough macros to hold plants over for quite a while. Those pictures you see are also taken after only a few weeks of time, before the onset of algae (which all tanks experience to some degree) And even still, Takashi Amano himself still doses potassium (Brighty K) consistently. And all those expensive ADA squirt fertilizers? That is boutique NPK solutions in a bottle. NPK is Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium, the three macro nutrients that plants need in relative abundance. Nitrates and phosphates are usually available from fish waste/food, but potassium is generally lacking (as well as iron) which leads to deficiencies and non-ideal growth. In a heavily planted, CO2 enriched tank, nitrates and phosphates are usually lacking too, which can result in algae going haywire all of the sudden. Ideal water parameters for a balanced tank are roughly 15 ppm nitrates, 0.5-1 ppm phosphates, 20 ppm potassium, 30 ppm CO2. Otherwise, you risk a clado/blue-green/staghorn/green spot, etc outbreak from a deficiency of one.

I agree that if it's not broken, don't fix it, but you should keep in mind that while something like this may work for a few lucky individuals, by and large, decades of plant growing experience around the world have shown the above to be the best solution.

[Juannie]

:22: That tank is seriously impressive! I have to agree as well that too many chemicals can cause problems, i use as little as possibe in my tanks and don't have many problems (unless they're heat related) I keep water changes up.

Now all I have to do is figure out how to make the plants survive!

[gbbudd]

Informative thankyou, so most of the ada pictures are new setups? not established? short term tanks?