Bladder Infection?

[Precursor]

We had a 5 gal beginner tank and got three fish to start off.

A swordtail, Dalmatiaon Molly, and a Pearl Gourami although the Pearl had an unfortunate intake accident. All male.

Despite struggling with a pH that always high (close to 8) and ammonia(NH3/NH4) levels that tend to climb. The first two were quite fine for about a month.

Regarding the pH and ammonia, I've treated the water for the pH just to have it return within 24 hours. The ammonia was kept at bay with bio treatment and water changes.

However, just a couple days ago, we had bought a 29 gal tank and we got 2 red tail sharks and 2 others I can't remember the name of (thin and long silvery fish with black stripes that go from nose to tail and they prefer the surface).

After the first night (in the morning around 8am) my swordtail started swimming erratically (although there may have been some erratic movement from sometime before we woke up) and died very shortly after (within the hour).

I suspected bladder infection and treated the water. I turned the 5 gal into a nursing tank.

After the second night (same time in the morning, it's when I get up) one of the silvery fish was flat up against the intake screen. I freed the fish but it appears to have the same problem as the swordtail. I suspect the same problem and where the silvery fish was less than half the size of the swordtail, it drifted with the current until getting to the screen.

Another suspicion is the sharks. When it's light they just hide in their respective places (one is always in a hollowed out skull while the other is always in a hollowed out castle) but I've heard that they can come out at night and attack the other fish. However the swordtail was just over twice their size.

Even as I type this my molly (although upright) is not swimming around the tank too much and is instead hanging out no more than an inch below the surface.

Also before coming on here I moved the sick silvery fish to the 5 gal with the less powerful filtration system. I think in the time it took for me to type this that it's dead.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Northernguy]

Have you done any water changes lately? When and how much?
What filters on these tanks?
You need a larger qt tank!
Are the tanks cycled? How long ago?
What are the perameters?
It would also help to klnow what the other fish are.What type of gourami?
Please read the ebook in my sig.It will help.

The sharks belong in a larger tank and only one per tank.They will beat up on each other and the other fish.
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[Lady Hobbs]

You have 3 fish in an uncycled 5 gallon. I can only assume ammonia levels are increasing that's killing your guys. Do not mess with the pH altho it is high. Fish can eventually adapt but they can not adapt when it continues to rise and fall dramatically.

[Precursor]

1/4 changes once a week. The water comes out through a plastic vacuum type tube so I am vacuuming sediment off the bottom at the same time as draining the water.

The 5 gal uses an Aqua-Tech 5-15 and the 29 gal uses an Aqua-Tech 20-40. They came with the kits. All it says about the filters is that they are "Aqua-Tech Power Filters w/Activated Carbon".


I believe that the 5 gal had cycled a week before getting the big tank set up and the big tank has not yet cycled.

Define "parameters".

All I can give you is the description. Also it was a Pearl Gourami but the inlet screen was installed inverted and the fish got sucked up into the first 1 1/2 inches of intake tube sometime during the day while I was at work. This was about 3 days after first getting the fish and 4 days after getting the tank.

The suspicion was a small one concerning them attacking the other fish. If it is then just one is too many. I've had this discussion with the keeper and she said to keep an eye on them. So far, as long as they each have their little hiding spot they are fine. I'll be setting up a web cam on them tonight.

As for room and size...I had just upgraded from a 5 to 29 gal and there are currently 4 fish remaining with each being less than an inch in the 29 gal tank. I still have a way to go (they have some growing to do) before upgrading. Right now the tank looks barren but the ratio between fish per inch and gallons should be pretty big to get the tank to cycle. 4:29 was "just fine" for the keeper.

[FreshwaterFred]

You really should have cycled the tank before adding the fish. It is unusual (correct me if I'm wrong) for a tank to cycle in a week, so I don't think tank 1 is cycled either. Parameters are the readings that you'd get from using a test kit, they tell you ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph.

[gabbyguppy]

Sounds more like ammonia poisoning rather than a 'bladder infection'. Try doing daily water changes and see if that helps.

Karen

[Precursor]

1. Although a tank can be cycled without fish, the more common method is to use a few fish as per many sites and what the keeper told me. One such site being.. [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

2. Tank one was a 5 gallon and was going for a month. I believe that it had cycled in 3 weeks. I used bio supplements which is said to increase the speed at which the tank will cycle. My ammonia spiked to about 4ppm at 2 1/2 and by the 3rd weekend before the water change the ammonia dropped to .25. This weekend being the 4th weekend it had fallen to 0 (or near enough that I couldn't distinguish the color to be anything but). Typically it takes 6 to 8 weeks without the use of supplements. The exact name of what I used is 'Nutrafin Cycle: Biological Aquarium Supplement'. Suppose to make new aquariums safe and prevent fish loss.

3. The fish themselves showed no sign of distress until after a day and night in the new, larger tank which had no ammonia (no fish nor food were present to contribute to any). Also the second fish to die in the exact same manner as the first never came from the 5 gal. It came from the store.


pH of both tanks sit around 7.6 to 7.8. Although I made attempts at lowing the pH for the first week of the 5 gal. I gave up since it didn't seem to bother the fish anyway and I never bothered to try and lower it in the larger tank. The ammonia is as I described above with the small tank experiencing the large drop off and the new tank hasn't even started climbing yet. Both are quite close to 0 ppm

another site I've read up on is [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[wolf_eyes]

Wow 4 ppm is dangerous for fish. Exposure to ammonia that high will cause permanent damage to fish's gills and cause them to live shorter lives. You mentioned ammonia, but what about nitrites for the smaller tank? This too is dangerous to fish. I don't think it was swim bladder disease. Most causes of swim bladder problems are hereditary and it's debated if there is a infectious verision of this problem. I think the more likely culprit is ammonia poisoning. This is the most common death cause in new tanks. Just because it is close to 0 does not mean it is healthy. For ammonia, .25ppm is enough to cause problems.

[Zilla]

I agree with the ammonia poisoning assessment.

Most of those "cyclers" don't work and whoever sold you those should have also explained that you need to test for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Apparently what also failed to be mentioned that lots of water changes need to happen with a fish in cycle as nitrites and ammonia harm fish as it has already been said. Had they been done, your ammonia levels wouldn't have reached 4 ppm.

[Precursor]

Are you guys just not reading to what I'm typing? Clearly or else there wouldn't be this ammonia poisoning nonsense....

THE FISH DIDN'T BEGIN DYING UNTIL AFTER THEY MOVED TO THE NEW TANK THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANY AMMONIA BUILT UP. ALSO THE NEW FISH THAT HAVE NEVER EVER BEEN IN THE 5 GAL HAVE ALSO DIED.

Both sharks dead, I'm now left with the dalmation molly which is not doing well and the other silver/black striped which is thriving.

I can see I'm just wasting my time here so I won't bother coming back.

[Zilla]

Buh-bye.

Good luck as the advice isn't going to change on any other other forum that is worth it's membership. The 5 gallon tank you insist we know nothing about also is not cycled and the fact that fish create waste is a fact.

Typing in all caps doesn't change anything.

[wolf_eyes]

How did you acclimate the fish to the new tank? This may be a problem as well. If you acclimated them too fast to the new tank then they may be suffering from shock. I've had this happen to a group of cories I bought before.

Most people were suggesting the ammonia incase you hadn't tested the large tank in a few days. Ammonia can build up fast and it is a killer so that was their main concern, especially since on the 5 gallon you let it get high. If you don't feel the forum is worth it, it's your choice. Hope you find the answer you're looking for.

[Precursor]

I did what was recommended to me. The fish from the shop came in the little bags filled with the water they were living in. It was recommended to put them (still in the bag) into the new tank and leave them for .5 to 1 hour before putting them and their water into the tank. I went with the 1 hour.

Most people were suggesting the ammonia incase you hadn't tested the large tank in a few days

Understandable but this began with the new tank and the first fish died a day after they went in which was two days after the tank was set up. I followed the instructions that came with the kit to set the tank up and have it running for a 24 hour period prior to introducing fish...I've checked the pH and ammonia levels of the water as soon as I put it in to know where it stood. I have then been checking both pH and ammonia levels daily. There hasn't been an increase as of yet (still and has always showed 0 ppm). Since both the fish from the other tank and the newly bought fish didn't start dying until they went into the new tank which has been checked daily from the very start. I had thought I had made this clear from the start.

If they were dying in the new tank and the new tank had high ammonia reading (hell any ammonia readings at all) then I would have considered poisoning.

If it was just the fish from the 5 gal that was dying then I would also consider poisoning but it is the new fish from the store as well.

Also I was told to expect the ammonia to spike as part of the cycling, so I didn't "let it" get high per say.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

The chart at this site shows the ammonia reaching 10 mg/L which at standard atmospheric pressure and temperature is equal to ppm. Considering mine only went to 4 ppm before dropping off.....

Yet I get replies like...

You have 3 fish in an uncycled 5 gallon. I can only assume ammonia levels are increasing that's killing your guys.

The 2 fish (since the 1 died from the intake a few days after getting them) were doing great. They did great the whole time even when the ammonia spiked. They were doing great by the end of week 4 when I moved them to the new tank. They didn't start dying till a day after being in the new tank. The new fish that were never in the 5 gal are also dying. I though this was clear in my post.

Then there is this reply

You really should have cycled the tank before adding the fish. It is unusual (correct me if I'm wrong) for a tank to cycle in a week, so I don't think tank 1 is cycled either.

Read most sites. They say to add fish as part of the cycling. Having fish in the tank introduces the ammonia which gets the ball rolling. I have read up on ways to add it all chemically but was recommended for beginners to simply add a few hearty fish since it is easier with less things to go wrong. Also most tanks take weeks depending on size (according to sites) none say 1 week. Although reading up on the biomass additive says that it can speed up the process quite a bit. Although the 5 gal may not have been completely cycled, it was certainly past the ammonia stage. And the fish were doing just fine in it.

I also never tried to adjust the pH in the large tank since it would only just bounce back up like it did in the 5 gal. Even then I only tried for the first week in the 5 gal so the 2 fish were doing fine for 3 weeks beyond the pH changing. The large tank didn't have any pH cycling. I simply checked it and left it where it was, where it is now and that is around 7.6 to 7.8

[gabbyguppy]

<It was recommended to put them (still in the bag) into the new tank and leave them for .5 to 1 hour before putting them and their water into the tank. I went with the 1 hour.>

Bad move! Never add water from the LFS to your tanks. You could be introducing a variety of issues from the water. Also, this is not a proper way to acclimate. Drip acclimation is best, but you can acclimate by adding your water to the bag over a few hours. This helps prevent pH shock.

[Zilla]

Do as you will.

When a tank is started, it has no ammonia in it unless it comes from your tap. When fish are added, they create ammonia. It's this ammonia, that eventually becomes toxic if the tank is not properly cycled. That means you need to go through a nitrite cycle to form the beneficial bateria which feed on the ammonia that the fish produce.

If you read around here, you will find countless complaints of pet stores giving bad information and the people here, do their best to correct the said bad information so that tank owners new or otherwise can actually enjoy the hobby instead of dealing with dead fish and mucked up tanks.

I don't care what all these other sites say. Fish keeping sites are a dime a dozen and a good portion of them are ridden with bad information.

If your mission is to be told what you want to hear, then keep going back to those sites. If you want to enjoy this hobby and develop a better understandig of it, the people here are more than willing to help, but you need to open your ears, forget what that shop owner and what all those other sites told you ( you're losing fish, so what does that tell you? They're giving you bad information) and get things done.

Do your daily water changes, test for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Once you get a completed cycle, you'll stop losing fish. Or you do it your way...

[Brhino]

just in case you need one more voice weighing in, your LFS has absolutely been giving you one bit of bad advice after the other. Their recommended acclimation method is one part good idea, two parts bad idea. They sold you two fish (the sharks) that any reference site anywhere will tell you hate living with each other. These facts alone should make you question their knowledge level. I see a lot of members join this website because they're having problems with their fish, and then for whatever reason they just reject the advice they're getting here. I know nobody likes to be told that what they're doing is wrong, but there's a reason that your fish are dying, and folks here know why.

[Piscine]

After ammonia is consumed by the beneficial bacteria, it turns into nitrate and nitrite. Those are toxic as well, and will stick around even after the ammonia has gone away. Read up a bit, get a good test kit, and see if it doesn't get a little better.

[Bristley]

Precursor, it sounds as though you're getting frustrated which is very understandable considering you are having fish die on you and don't seem to understand why.

I'm going to put myself in your shoes, which is actually easy since I'm fairly new to this hobby myself and have discovered that many things I was originally told/learned were wrong. I understand that it may seem like you're being attacked right now since you came here asking for help and it sounds to you like everyone is telling you that you are "wrong" or "screwing up".

No one here is your enemy. Quite the contrary actually. All we want is for you to be able to succeed and your fish to have a healthy environment.

The main problem is that you were initially given bad advice. This is not your fault, and there's no way that you could have known that it was bad advice to begin with.

Most employees at LFS's don't really have a clue about taking care of fish. Some do, but in general, especially in the large chains, you are dealing with people who don't care and are there just for the paycheck, or only know what the store manager has told them, which is most likely very little.

So I am not going to berate you about any mistakes that have already been made due to you receiving bad information. I know I've made my share and if you ask on here I'm sure everyone else has made their own mistakes too.

Now reading through the thread it was unclear to me exactly how you are testing your water so I'm going to ask so that I completely understand. Are you using a liquid test kit of some kind that tests for Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates? These are the biggest and most important things to be concerned with when cycling a tank.

No matter what the employee at your LFS has said up to this point I want to help clear this up for you if you haven't heard it officially yet....

Assuming you are starting out with a tap water source with the following parameters this is kind of what to expect from cycling a tank (with or without fish in it).

starting tap parameters....Ammo = 0 Nitrite = 0 Nitrate = 0. (I'm using these to denote a "blank slate" so to speak.

So you fill the tank and add the appropriate amount of dechlorinator as per the instructions on the bottle.

Now as you go through the cycling process your Ammonia level will spike/rise. If you are cycling with fish you will want to keep this low through frequent water changes and testing. You'll want to do this to protect the fish as ammonia is toxic to them. This is also the reason why cycling with fish takes longer, since you keep ammonia levels low that means less "food" for the bacteria to grow. Doing fishless you can have higher levels of ammonia since you don't have to worry about fish and therefore can grow more bacteria in a shorter amount of time.

As the bacteria grows and starts to lower the ammonia level the nitrite level will spike/rise. Nitrite is also toxic to fish. Even if you are reading a low or undetectable amount of ammonia you can now have harmful levels of nitrite within your tank. So if you aren't testing for nitrite you may not know if that is potentially the cause of sick/dying fish.

Next the bacteria that breaks down nitrite will start to grow and nitrate will start to show up in your tank when you do testing.

Now here is the key part. A tank is not fully cycled until your are reading Ammonia at 0, nitrite at 0, and some (less than 20ppm but still some detectable level) nitrate.

Once you get to that point you can officially say that your tank is cycled. That is the overall big picture. You can go into more details and discussions when you talk specifics about fishless vs. fish-in cycling and planted vs. un-planted tanks, but like I said this is in general.

If you are reading any ammonia or nitrite you need to acknowledge that the tank is not cycled. If you got to the ammo=0, nitrite=0, nitrate=some at one point and later started reading ammo and/or nitrite then something has happened that is/has caused your tank to cycle again.

Now I hope that you are not discouraged from coming back to this site as I have found that there is a ton of experience found here and people that are more than willing to help those who are willing to listen. I hope that you will continue your research and will be open to any help that those here can give you as I am positive that we can help you to build a wonderful environment for your fishy friends.

Remember, what's said here isn't criticism for criticism's sake, it's constructive criticism when needed and a helping hand always. I hope this helps you and that you stick with it. :22:

[Piscine]

Great post. thumbs2:

[wolf_eyes]

I think then they are suffering from shock. This is what happened to the group of cories I got. They were wild caught but I drip acclimated them for a couple of hours to try and make up for this. However since they were wild fish and my ph was higher than 8 the drip acclimation was not enough. The fish showed symptoms just like yours before they bellied up, all in a span of 24-48 hours. While floating the bag in the water helps get them accustomed to temp, it doesn't let them get used to a different ph, different minerals in the water, and other things that are in your water. Usually you want to put a shot glass amount of water into the bag every 5 minutes for an hour. Then you want to take the fish out of the bag with a net and introduce them to the tank.Pour the tank water from the bag down the drain or, better yet, into the soil of a nearby plant(they'll love it). For most cases this will be enough to get most hardy fish accustomed to the tank. However if you are dealing with more sensitive fish or a very big ph difference, then drip acclimation is the way to go.

The best way to acclimate fish is to drip acclimate because it is a constant process and very easy once it's set up. Here's a link to some good visuals on how to set up for drip acclimation.
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[Precursor]

Thank you Bristley for the post. It was more or less what I have read and was told with the exception being the ammonia spike. I was told to expect up to 8 ppm but the fish selected were known for toughing through it.

Indeed when the two were in the 5 gal that last week when the ammonia dropped off (and the nitrite would be elevated) they showed no signs of distress. The problem didn't begin with all the fish (both the two from the 5 gal and the 4 from the store) until they were in the new tank. Which, as you put it, was conditioned tap water (followed the instructions carefully) with 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate.

Regarding shock. The store fish, I could see a problem with them but for the 2 from the five gal, they have been in the same conditioned tap water of a pH and temp as the new tank for a month. The only difference between the two being the ammonia levels where the new tank had nothing, it should have been a breath of fresh....water. Unless a rapid drop in ammonia can cause shock.

However, I did think of the stores water introducing something. I have treated the big tank with anti parasite and anti bacterial/fungal. Currently I have just the one silver/black striped fish that is doing great in the big tank and my dalmation molly is belly up on the bottom in the nursery tank (water is also treated), still breathing.

If the striped one continues on then good but I'm not getting any more until the tank completes the cycle. There should be enough waste material (and uneaten food) in the tank now to produce enough ammonia for the cycle to happen. I'm gonna let the ammonia in the big tank get as high as it needs to (if it kills the last fish then so be it). However if the last one develops the same problems as all the others and the initial ammonia levels haven't risen yet then I guess I'll just have to start fresh.

I'll also use that drip acclimation process you mention wolf_eyes.

Thanks you two. Not just for the help but for actually taking the time to read and understand rather than jump to false conclusions and assume.

[Lab_Rat]

Thank you Bristley for the post. It was more or less what I have read and was told with the exception being the ammonia spike. I was told to expect up to 8 ppm but the fish selected were known for toughing through it.

Indeed when the two were in the 5 gal that last week when the ammonia dropped off (and the nitrite would be elevated) they showed no signs of distress. The problem didn't begin with all the fish (both the two from the 5 gal and the 4 from the store) until they were in the new tank. Which, as you put it, was conditioned tap water (followed the instructions carefully) with 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate.

Regarding shock. The store fish, I could see a problem with them but for the 2 from the five gal, they have been in the same conditioned tap water of a pH and temp as the new tank for a month. The only difference between the two being the ammonia levels where the new tank had nothing, it should have been a breath of fresh....water. Unless a rapid drop in ammonia can cause shock.

However, I did think of the stores water introducing something. I have treated the big tank with anti parasite and anti bacterial/fungal. Currently I have just the one silver/black striped fish that is doing great in the big tank and my dalmation molly is belly up on the bottom in the nursery tank (water is also treated), still breathing.

If the striped one continues on then good but I'm not getting any more until the tank completes the cycle. There should be enough waste material (and uneaten food) in the tank now to produce enough ammonia for the cycle to happen. I'm gonna let the ammonia in the big tank get as high as it needs to (if it kills the last fish then so be it). However if the last one develops the same problems as all the others and the initial ammonia levels haven't risen yet then I guess I'll just have to start fresh.

I'll also use that drip acclimation process you mention wolf_eyes.

Thanks you two. Not just for the help but for actually taking the time to read and understand rather than jump to false conclusions and assume.

A rapid change in anything, including ammonia, most certainly can shock the fish and result in death. 4ppm ammonia is very high, I would not trust a site that advocates fish are fine cycling through 8ppm, that is just plain ridiculous.

[Piscine]

This may be helpful.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Read the part about acclimation.

[evilstench]

if there are no fish left in the tank you will need to add ammonia to continue the cycle. It wont take long for the bacteria to die without a food source.

[Precursor]

There is still just one fish left. Doing just fine. The medication made the water cloudy but it has all cleared up now.